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Author Topic: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism  (Read 9742 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
« Reply #105 on: June 18, 2023, 08:32:07 PM »
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  • So, you don't believe the sun dips below the horizon, even though you can see it happen on any clear day? 

    No.  Try to spend about 5 minutes looking into something called perspective.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
    « Reply #106 on: June 18, 2023, 09:42:24 PM »
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  • Quote
    Don't be ridiculous.  There are a thousand reasons why your own "eyes" are mislead by various optical phenomana, from perspective, to atmospheric distortion, moisture in the atmosphere, and a thousand other things. 
    Yeah, the eyes were designed to see colors and recognize objects close at hand.  One of the least reliable attributes of our eyesight is depth perception, especially at long distances.  Countless experiments of people not recognizing objects when you get past a mere 50 yards.


    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
    « Reply #107 on: June 23, 2023, 06:33:39 PM »
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  • I used to live in Santa Barbara so the experiment done in the video below is done at a place I'm very familiar with.  I think this is very interesting.

    1. Curve Calculator shows that 29 feet of the object at the 10mile distance will be obscured by curvature.



    2. The oil rigs off Santa Barbara are 160' in height, meaning that the furthest rig in the video should have 29' of 'obscurity' leaving the top 131' to be visible.



    3. The 4 min video shows clearly that the rig (both actually) is entirely visible from top to bottom and the horizon is even further out.  Compelling stuff.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
    « Reply #108 on: June 23, 2023, 07:22:49 PM »
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  • I used to live in Santa Barbara so the experiment done in the video below is done at a place I'm very familiar with.  I think this is very interesting.

    1. Curve Calculator shows that 29 feet of the object at the 10mile distance will be obscured by curvature.


    2. The oil rigs off Santa Barbara are 160' in height, meaning that the furthest rig in the video should have 29' of 'obscurity' leaving the top 131' to be visible.


    3. The 4 min video shows clearly that the rig (both actually) is entirely visible from top to bottom and the horizon is even further out.  Compelling stuff.



    Yes, there are many such experiments, and they all show the same thing, including a world record photograph (not taken by a Flat Earther) showing the Alps from 700 miles away when they should have been hidden by 45 miles of curvature.  There's no plausible explanation for this.  There's one guy who was taking infrared photos on a plane, and seeing things thousands of miles away that should have been hidden by miles of curvature.  This gentleman (used to work for NASA) ran all the infrared photos he took on a long flight through photogrammetry software (which is known to be extremely accurate), and the software indicated that the surface was completely flat.  There are two-way laser experiments.  Dr. John D did experiments on wind turbines between 8.5 and 11 miles away, and he could still see the "high tide" marks on the posts, which were merely 2.5 meters above the water and should have been hidden.  He's also conducted two-way laser experiments, ruling out refraction.  Others have done laser experiments at distances of 27+ miles.  Really, the only "refutation" Globe Earthers have is to throw the word "refraction" at you.  It's simply not plausible.  I'm open to some other explanation, but refraction just doesn't cut it.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
    « Reply #109 on: June 23, 2023, 07:52:35 PM »
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    The oil rigs off Santa Barbara are 160' in height, meaning that the furthest rig in the video should have 29' of 'obscurity' leaving the top 131' to be visible.
    It's good to see people still exist with an open mind and a thirst for truth, wherever it leads.



    Quote
    Really, the only "refutation" Globe Earthers have is to throw the word "refraction" at you.  It's simply not plausible.  I'm open to some other explanation, but refraction just doesn't cut it.
    Right.  A lazer, telescope, video camera, etc...all of these are designed to see things straight ahead.  They aren't designed to see below curves, or account for changes in elevation.  No amount of 'science mumbo jumbo' can explain away the lack of curve.  


    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
    « Reply #110 on: June 23, 2023, 08:29:11 PM »
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  • I am no expert, but it was the laser experiments that convinced me that the Earth is flat. There is no way to explain the results on a globe Earth.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
    « Reply #111 on: June 23, 2023, 08:48:45 PM »
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  • I am no expert, but it was the laser experiments that convinced me that the Earth is flat. There is no way to explain the results on a globe Earth.
    .

    Ever seen a mirage, my friend?

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
    « Reply #112 on: June 23, 2023, 09:06:02 PM »
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  • .

    Ever seen a mirage, my friend?

    Recorded on video? With bright lasers shining? Not that I can recall.


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
    « Reply #113 on: June 23, 2023, 09:13:15 PM »
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  • Recorded on video? With bright lasers shining? Not that I can recall.
    .

    I'm sorry, I don't understand your objection. There are certainly of .

    I'm not sure why people here think lasers are immune to the properties of light.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
    « Reply #114 on: June 23, 2023, 09:19:57 PM »
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  • .

    Ever seen a mirage, my friend?

    Idiotic.  No mirage can explain consistent "curvature" of light around a globe including over the span of 700 miles.  It's utter hogwash and desperation due to your brainwashing.  No mirage will bend an image around the globe that should be hidden by 45 miles of curvature.  And mirages don't affect lasers especially two-way lasers.  Just a pathetic pile of horse manure.  Prove that a mirage can explain these phenomena instead of throwing words out there.  Thousands of such experiments are all ... mirages, or refraction.

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
    « Reply #115 on: June 23, 2023, 09:24:29 PM »
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  • .

    I'm sorry, I don't understand your objection. There are certainly of .

    I'm not sure why people here think lasers are immune to the properties of light.

    Yes, some phenomena can be explained by refraction and air humidity (or should I say moisture?).

    But, as far as I know, there is no way to explain it over greater distances. That swan something experiment is quite convincing too. For me anyway.

    Maybe someone could use very long cables instead of lasers. Then light phenomena could not be to blame.


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
    « Reply #116 on: June 23, 2023, 09:56:33 PM »
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  • Just a couple of random thoughts here:

    First, what about television and FM radio signals that rely on line of sight (as opposed to AM and shortwave signals that travel far longer distances)?  Just speaking about TV signals (with which I have far more experience, I've been a hobbyist for over 50 years), given a totally flat surface (i.e., with no hills or mountains between you and the TV transmitter), the signal normally peters out after about 75-80 miles.  (I won't complicate the scenario with "knife-edge propagation", where the signal hits a mountain ridge or similar obstruction and glances off the top, with enhanced reception on the far side of the ridge --- that can enhance coverage areas considerably, and in the mountains, TV signals can do bizarre things.  Very often, what cities you get TV stations from depends on what side of the mountain you live on, and TV signals also "snake" down valleys and similar features.)  TV towers are no more than 2000' tall, lower if they are on a high mountain, as the FCC wouldn't tolerate a 2000' tower on top of a 5000' mountain.  If the earth would flat, that signal would go on forever, or at least until it were dissipated so as to be too weak for reception.  Yet it doesn't do that.  Here's an example of an idealized situation, where the signal goes out over water (I used WSVN channel 9 Miami, to show a signal that largely goes over either water or pancake-flat terrain, the tower is 1014 feet tall at sea level):




    Notice that the signal abruptly stops about 60-80 miles out (I imagine they truncate it so as not to waste signal over the ocean where there are no viewers, also, the signal is directionalized north-south, presumably for similar reasons, whereas most of the time, TV signals are omnidirectional).  Granted, out at the edges, the signal is weaker (the area shaded in light red), but it reaches a certain point, and >POOF!<, no signal at all.

    Second, what about microwave signals?  Unlike conventional TV signals, they are laser-precise, used to get a signal straight from one point to another.  The first example that comes to mind is WHIS-TV in Bluefield, West Virginia (now WVVA), which had to get a microwave signal from Roanoke, some 70 miles distant (the following is snipped from https://jeff560.tripod.com/whis2.html), to be able to offer network programming which didn't get all the way to Bluefield:

    How was the new station to supply sufficient programming to justify its existence? Network was the obvious answer. But, as usual, there was a hitch. There were no network common carrier facilities, and when approached on the subject, the American Telephone & Telegraph Company indicated it had no plans to put in common carrier connections between Bluefield and Roanoke, the closest city receiving network television signals.
    With typical resourcefulness and determination, Jim and Hugh Shott (by now president and general manager, respectively) decided to build their own microwave relay system to bring NBC programs from Roanoke, a distance of some 70 air miles. RCA, pioneer in broadcast electronics, agreed that such a theory was sound, but had never been attempted over such terrain nor for such distances. They accepted the challenge of creating necessary equipment, but Pat Flanagan was handed the awesome assignment of planning, installing and operating the system, an entirely new and unusual job!
    Pat poured over U. S. geodetic maps tediously selecting and rejecting routes and sites for relay transmitters and receivers. Eventually they settled on the first relay receiver and transmitter 13 miles west of there to a spot appropriately named Dismal Peak; and from there to the top of East River Mountain. It looked good on the map. Getting men and equipment up the rattlesnake infested, rocky mountainsides was something else! Equipped with compass, binoculars, searchlights, mirrors and snake-bite kits, Pat and his boys set out.
    First, they leased space at station WDBJ to house equipment to pick up and transmit the network signals from AT&T. Then the direct line-of-sight path (the only way microwave can travel) from Roanoke to Poor Mountain was established by a man standing on top of the Mountain State and Trust Building in Roanoke reflecting sunlight with a mirror so that another man on the 13-mile distant Poor Mountain could pinpoint the originating location. This process was then repeated from that site to Dismal Peak and again to East River Mountain.
    Microwave travels much as a beam of light travels. The transmitting antenna "dish" projects them as an automobile headlight reflector projects its beam of light. The pattern is slightly conical, like the beam from a powerful searchlight, four feet in diameter at the originating point. It loses power as it travels, and when picked up at the next relay point the signals brought up to full power and re-transmitted to the next point. All this by air! There are no physical wire connections. The same microwave relay system COULD carry not only television, but telephone, telegraph, radio and very likely will one day replace the maze of wires and telephone poles now dotting the horizon.
    Sound and picture travel together, although they are actually two separate signals. The sound, or audio signal, is an FM (frequency modulation) radio wave. That is why Channel 6 television sound can be picked up on FM radio. The picture, or video signal, is an AM (amplitude modulation) radio wave. The two are combined into a composite beam by a diplexer at the transmitter in Roanoke, and unscrambled when the beam reaches the transmitter on East River Mountain.
    If all this sound complicated, it is! To get the first equipment up the mountains and operating, point to point, voice circuits were established through telephone switchboards at towns along the way, so Pat and his boys could talk back and forth while attempting to establish their line-of-sight paths.
    The towers at each relay point, designed by Flanagan and still in use, are four 50-foot creosoted telephone poles, with a large platform built on top to support antennas and external equipment and also allow room for men to service them. Ground equipment at the relay points is housed in prefab steel houses, and is remotely controlled. When the network comes on in Roanoke, it automatically starts the transmitter, which by a signal starts the next.
    The WHIS-TV microwave relay system is one of the very few privately owned systems in the country. Even today, RCA (who built the equipment for a mere $70,000) brings its research and development engineer-trainees to WHIS to study the system. Meanwhile, back at the Municipal Building excitement was mounting as Pat assured his staff that completion of the microwave system was nearing.
    On September 26, 1955, the Herculean task was done. At 4:00 p. m. the "Pinky Lee Show" became Channel 6's first network program. 

    I have to think that all of this Rube Goldberg-like rigamarole presupposed a curved earth, not a flat one.  

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
    « Reply #117 on: June 23, 2023, 10:24:38 PM »
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    I imagine they truncate it so as not to waste signal over the ocean where there are no viewers, also, the signal is directionalized north-south, presumably for similar reasons, whereas most of the time, TV signals are omnidirectional
    I think you answered your own question.  In theory, yes, signals would be unimpeded on a flat earth, moreso than a globe.  But in reality, $ignals are truncated, becau$e otherwi$e it'$ a wa$te.  And we know who own$ 98% of radio, tv, broadca$t network$...they're all about $$$.

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
    « Reply #118 on: June 23, 2023, 11:30:06 PM »
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  • I think you answered your own question.  In theory, yes, signals would be unimpeded on a flat earth, moreso than a globe.  But in reality, $ignals are truncated, becau$e otherwi$e it'$ a wa$te.  And we know who own$ 98% of radio, tv, broadca$t network$...they're all about $$$.

    It's not a money issue (but see below).  Broadcasters have to share signals with other broadcasters on the same frequency in other cities, therefore they have to adhere to certain power and tower height regulations, to keep signals from colliding and interfering with one another (it doesn't take much for that to happen)  The FCC won't allow a TV tower over 2000' high from base to tip, and the WSVN tower is about half that height.  There is also a certain "flattening" and downtilt factor, so that the signal is dispersed horizontally, rather than radiating out of the transmitter in all directions, including upwards.  Think of holding a showerhead straight up in the air with your hand held an inch or so above it, and you'll get the idea.

    I said "but see below".  Unless engineered otherwise, broadcast signals are omnidirectional, i.e., they go out equally all 360 degrees.  You'll notice on the map I provided that WSVN's signal is kind of oval-shaped, to hit up and down the coast along areas of highest population, nonetheless, a flattened signal goes out into the ocean.  There is no point sending an omnidirectional signal out into open water where no one lives, and the signal does not get out as far as the Bahamas (West Palm Beach TV stations can be picked up at the far western tip of Grand Bahama west of Freeport).

    As a practical matter, Bahamians would get Miami stations via satellite, which doesn't operate under the same geographical handicaps as terrestrial broadcast TV.

    Here's another example of a TV station with a more omnidirectional signal over flat terrain (WDAY Fargo ND):