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Author Topic: Sinful?  (Read 2210 times)

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Offline SoldierOfChrist

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Sinful?
« on: July 20, 2013, 12:34:04 PM »
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  • I need to repair one of our two cars because we cannot afford to take it to a garage, and none of the garages around here have good reviews from their customers.  The original service dvd costs almost $300 on ebay, but a copy of that dvd is selling for $8.  It is very tempting to just get the copy, but it seems dishonest.  What is the Church's teaching on things like this?


    Offline Emerentiana

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    Sinful?
    « Reply #1 on: July 20, 2013, 12:56:48 PM »
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  • Its a sin against the 4th commandment "thou shalt not steal", to copy DVD's.  I would think that it would be knowingly purchasing stolen goods.  


    Offline SoldierOfChrist

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    Sinful?
    « Reply #2 on: July 20, 2013, 01:03:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: Emerentiana
    Its a sin against the 4th commandment "thou shalt not steal", to copy DVD's.  I would think that it would be knowingly purchasing stolen goods.  


    You're right.  I can't believe that I even needed to ask this question.  I will just have to save up for an original.

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Sinful?
    « Reply #3 on: July 20, 2013, 01:11:30 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ryan
    Quote from: Emerentiana
    Its a sin against the 4th commandment "thou shalt not steal", to copy DVD's.  I would think that it would be knowingly purchasing stolen goods.  


    You're right.  I can't believe that I even needed to ask this question.  I will just have to save up for an original.


    You're going to take her word for it?

    Copyright is not the same as ownership of property.

    Ask a priest, I'm pretty sure he'd tell you not to worry about it.

    You need the information.


    Offline Ambrose

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    Sinful?
    « Reply #4 on: July 20, 2013, 01:19:53 PM »
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  • Quote
    The product of a man's art, skill, painting, writing, etc., belongs to him to the extent that he is entitled to derive reasonable profit from his labour.  Consequently the law of patent rights and copyright is just...
    Moral and Pastoral Theology, Davis, 1952

    This sin is a violation the seventh commandment, "Thou shalt not steal," and possibly the tenth, "thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods."  
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic


    Offline Telesphorus

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    Sinful?
    « Reply #5 on: July 20, 2013, 01:48:04 PM »
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  •  
    Quote
    belongs to him to the extent that he is entitled to derive reasonable profit from his labour.  Consequently the law of patent rights and copyright is just...


    reasonable profit

    Saying that laws of patent and copyrights are just is not the same as saying infringing the letter of the law is a violation of the Commandments.

    Catholics are supposed to pay their taxes too, yet St. Alphonsus permits that Catholics may refrain from the full amount when taxes are oppressive.

    Is such a person a "thief" - taking the government's property, by keeping what is theirs?

    Copying something is not taking possession of someone else's property.

    It certainly isn't just when drug companies charge extortionate prices for their drugs on the basis of patent law.

    Are you saying someone who buys drugs from overseas is then breaking the Seventh Commandment?

    Ridiculous.

    Anyone who defends the current scope of these laws protectiong Jєωιѕн monopolies is suffering from scruples.

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Sinful?
    « Reply #6 on: July 20, 2013, 01:52:24 PM »
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  • The publishing industry that forces young students to spend hundreds of dollars to buy over-sized, over-priced text books the editions of which are updated constantly, are Catholics in the wrong to copy the books they need?

    Really, these monopolies are not just.  

    It is one thing to go into business to profit from someone else's intellectual work.

    It's quite another to forgo paying exorbitant fees for that work.

    Copyrights expire, natural law property rights are not the same.

    Offline SoldierOfChrist

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    Sinful?
    « Reply #7 on: July 20, 2013, 01:57:48 PM »
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  • Interesting argument Tele.  I have to say that I am on the fence on this one.  Especially since I've seen people post on forums that they paid $60 dollars for the dvd back in 2008.  Leads me to believe that whoever is selling it on ebay is looking to make a 500% profit on it.  I'll ask Father tomorrow after Mass.


    Offline Telesphorus

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    Sinful?
    « Reply #8 on: July 20, 2013, 02:02:51 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ryan
    Interesting argument Tele.  I have to say that I am on the fence on this one.  Especially since I've seen people post on forums that they paid $60 dollars for the dvd back in 2008.  Leads me to believe that whoever is selling it on ebay is looking to make a 500% profit on it.  I'll ask Father tomorrow after Mass.


    Whoever is asking for $300 so that a family man can watch a video to learn how to maintain his own car is an extortionist.

    Offline MaterDominici

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    Sinful?
    « Reply #9 on: July 20, 2013, 03:19:12 PM »
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  • If the product is no longer available "new", then the person who created it is done making his money.

    Sometimes used markets support the new market, but that doesn't seem to be the case in this situation.
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline SoldierOfChrist

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    Sinful?
    « Reply #10 on: July 20, 2013, 03:26:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: MaterDominici
    If the product is no longer available "new", then the person who created it is done making his money.

    Sometimes used markets support the new market, but that doesn't seem to be the case in this situation.


    Yes, I was actually thinking the same thing.  I've tried looking for it on the manufacturer's website and not found it.  I've emailed them to find out if it is still available.  It it is not, I'll get the copy with no conflict of conscience.


    Offline SoldierOfChrist

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    Sinful?
    « Reply #11 on: July 20, 2013, 03:29:01 PM »
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  • It also occurred to me that the person selling it for $8 is probably not making any money on it.  He's paying for shipping, time, and supplies.  Maybe he's doing it to undercut the price gougers and to neutralize their racket.

    Offline Ambrose

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    Sinful?
    « Reply #12 on: July 20, 2013, 11:25:15 PM »
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  • Fr. Peter Scott gave an excellent explanation of this question:

    QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
    Fr. Peter R. Scott, SSPX

    Quote
    IS IT PERMISSIBLE TO MAKE COPIES OF CDS AND DVDS THAT ARE SUBJECT TO COPYRIGHT?

    The Church has always defended the right of private ownership, as guaranteed by the natural life, and entirely necessary for the common good of society. This right does not only include material objects, commonly known as private property, but also includes such spiritual things as a man’s reputation. It consequently also includes the fruit of one’s invention, hard work, creativity, such as books, music, and manuscripts at least before they have been made public. It is quite simply theft to take and copy such items without the authorization of the author, who has ownership over them.

    However, the usual difficulty arises over such books, articles, conferences, music, and movies that have already been made public. The common opinion of the theologians is that in the natural law they still remain subject to private ownership, and that consequently they cannot be simply pirated. However, it would be contrary to the common good if they would remain perpetually subject to private ownership and control. Positive civil law recognizes this and admits the existence of copyright laws that forbid copying of such articles, music, movies and the like without the requisite authorization of the person who owns the copyright. However, for the common good there is a limitation on the duration of a copyright if it is not renewed, after which time the intellectual work enters the public domain. These laws are just and consequently bind in conscience, so that a person who deliberately infringes them commits a sin against justice which is either mortal or venial, depending on the gravity of the matter.

    This being said, the permission of the copyright owner can be presumed if the copy is for a small item and for only a single copy or a small number of copies, which copies will not deprive the owner of any significant income. In such a case, it would not be reasonable for him to object. Thus it is permissible to photocopy one or several pages of a book that is under copyright and still in print, but it is not permissible to photocopy the entire book, thus depriving the bookseller of the sale of a book. In like manner it is permissible to copy one or other song, or a part of a program or CD or DVD. It is not, however, permissible to copy entire CDs or complete DVDs that are under copyright and still available for purchase without authorization of the owner. In general it would only be light matter and a venial sin, but to do it in large quantity and make a business of it would certainly be a grievous sin as well as a criminal act. It would be different, however, if the items were already in the public domain or if the copyright owner’s intention was to allow some limited access to this copyrighted material.

    The downloading of programs, music, and material from the Internet needs to be considered according to the intentions of the owner of the website. In general, it can be presumed that if the material is put up on the Internet without any restriction and by a person who has a right to the material, then he is by the very fact making it publicly available. In general, it is permissible to download and use such information, since it can easily be limited by passwords, credit card requirements, and the like so that unauthorized persons cannot access it. Consequently, if the website does not expressly forbid copying the music, articles, and other items, then it can be copied without scruple.


    http://www.angelusonline.org/index.php?section=articles&subsection=show_article&article_id=3028

    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline SoldierOfChrist

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    Sinful?
    « Reply #13 on: July 20, 2013, 11:46:50 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose
    Fr. Peter Scott gave an excellent explanation of this question:

    QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
    Fr. Peter R. Scott, SSPX

    Quote
    IS IT PERMISSIBLE TO MAKE COPIES OF CDS AND DVDS THAT ARE SUBJECT TO COPYRIGHT?

    The Church has always defended the right of private ownership, as guaranteed by the natural life, and entirely necessary for the common good of society. This right does not only include material objects, commonly known as private property, but also includes such spiritual things as a man’s reputation. It consequently also includes the fruit of one’s invention, hard work, creativity, such as books, music, and manuscripts at least before they have been made public. It is quite simply theft to take and copy such items without the authorization of the author, who has ownership over them.

    However, the usual difficulty arises over such books, articles, conferences, music, and movies that have already been made public. The common opinion of the theologians is that in the natural law they still remain subject to private ownership, and that consequently they cannot be simply pirated. However, it would be contrary to the common good if they would remain perpetually subject to private ownership and control. Positive civil law recognizes this and admits the existence of copyright laws that forbid copying of such articles, music, movies and the like without the requisite authorization of the person who owns the copyright. However, for the common good there is a limitation on the duration of a copyright if it is not renewed, after which time the intellectual work enters the public domain. These laws are just and consequently bind in conscience, so that a person who deliberately infringes them commits a sin against justice which is either mortal or venial, depending on the gravity of the matter.

    This being said, the permission of the copyright owner can be presumed if the copy is for a small item and for only a single copy or a small number of copies, which copies will not deprive the owner of any significant income. In such a case, it would not be reasonable for him to object. Thus it is permissible to photocopy one or several pages of a book that is under copyright and still in print, but it is not permissible to photocopy the entire book, thus depriving the bookseller of the sale of a book. In like manner it is permissible to copy one or other song, or a part of a program or CD or DVD. It is not, however, permissible to copy entire CDs or complete DVDs that are under copyright and still available for purchase without authorization of the owner. In general it would only be light matter and a venial sin, but to do it in large quantity and make a business of it would certainly be a grievous sin as well as a criminal act. It would be different, however, if the items were already in the public domain or if the copyright owner’s intention was to allow some limited access to this copyrighted material.

    The downloading of programs, music, and material from the Internet needs to be considered according to the intentions of the owner of the website. In general, it can be presumed that if the material is put up on the Internet without any restriction and by a person who has a right to the material, then he is by the very fact making it publicly available. In general, it is permissible to download and use such information, since it can easily be limited by passwords, credit card requirements, and the like so that unauthorized persons cannot access it. Consequently, if the website does not expressly forbid copying the music, articles, and other items, then it can be copied without scruple.


    http://www.angelusonline.org/index.php?section=articles&subsection=show_article&article_id=3028



    This is actually a very different situation here Ambrose.  The dvd in question contains the official service manual for fixing my car.  It is not available anywhere else.  And it is no longer even available from the company.  The person selling an original has marked the price up 500% and the company which created the product is no longer selling it.  They will see no profit from this man's opportunism.  If they were still selling it, I would be happy to purchase it from them.  But they're not, so I can't.  Therefore, do I reward a horrible person for doing what he does, or do I get a copy of something which is no longer being produced, from a person who is barely even turning a profit?

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Sinful?
    « Reply #14 on: July 20, 2013, 11:53:34 PM »
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  • Let's not forget the SSPX priest who accused a layman of a crime for reading from Archbishop Lefebvre's published and suppressed sermons!