Author Topic: Should MEN work away from home 8 hours a day? (Read 6236 times)

Matthew · « **on:** May 27, 2014, 02:23:25 PM »

A woman, wife and mother, posted this on a group and I agree:

Quote

I've been pondering this in my mind for a while and would like to know your thoughts. Do you think that God intended for a man and wife to be separated 10 or more hours each day (except for Saturday and Sunday?)? I think about the time my husband spends at work and the small amount of time he gets to spend at home (before sleeping), and it just feels like WORK has become his main "life", and home has just become the "in-between" life. He loves spending time with his daughter but on average he sees her 1.5 hours each day! He is obviously trying to be a good provider, and if he worked any less I don't know how we would survive...but for some reason I just don't think that God would intend for man and wife to be separated so much. I feel like we should be doing this together! .....(I understand there are military families and such, but I'm just saying should we be CHOOSING to live a life where we barely see each other?)

Some noteworthy comments:

"I had this conversation once with another mom, and we both agreed the industrial revolution was a death sentence for the family. Besides the consumerist expectations that creeped into our everyday life from the phenomenon of mass production, it took fathers away from home and hearth! And then eventually mothers as well."

"My husband and I have discussed this often. Before the Industrial Age most families worked together on farms or family businesses. I think the family dynamics as it is today can become a major source of stress. Furthermore, this dynamics has caused isolation for moms that have chosen to stay home as many as their female family members and friends may be working. Although historically women have always been the ones to care for children and home whole husbands worked, they often had a great support system with nearby family and friends."

"Funny you should bring it up. I was just pondering the same thing recently after I read this article. http://distributistreview.com/mag/2011/11/from-teacher-to-farmer-why-i-went-back-to-the-land/

From Teacher to Farmer: Why I Went Back to the Land
distributistreview.com

"The attack on the family goes back a long way. Before the industrial revolution families were much more integrated. Men often worked adjacent to the home and families ate 3 meals together. Young boys learned the trade at their father's side. I wish we could return to that!"

shin · « **Reply #1 on:** May 27, 2014, 02:38:50 PM »

Quote

I also began to perceive clearly that technology was value-laden. It was not some neutral agent without direct causation. In fact, technology could and had drastically changed the way people lived.

A quote to take away with regarding all technological advances.

Great to have read! And it's true about the chickens too!

Frances · « **Reply #2 on:** May 27, 2014, 03:19:55 PM »

:dancing-banana:
The entire modern world is set upon destroying not only Christ but the fabric of Christendom. Yes, it's a sad fact many fathers and husbands spend little time at home. Many of the children I teach see neither parent at all during the week. Too many are at school 12 hours a day and spend another hour or more in a bus riding to and from school. Family time is relegated to Sunday morning and occasional Saturdays. And then everyone sits in separate rooms and uses electronic devices.

Matthew · « **Reply #3 on:** May 27, 2014, 03:22:59 PM »

I don't know who the down-thumber is, but I can't see any problem with what I posted.

God intended for men to eat bread and earn a living "by the sweat of their brow", yes, but throughout history and especially Christendom, the men were always a loud yell away.

Either they worked in the fields and ate 3 meals a day at home, or they worked downstairs in the shop/smithy/workshop/etc. and lived upstairs (or in a nearby building) with their families the rest of the time.

To get to the current situation -- a man commuting to work many miles away, punching a clock in an office or factory, buying fast food on his lunch break, etc. you pretty much have to fast forward to the 20th century.

As we all know, the 20th century and all its advancements was more of a bane than a boon to Catholic civilization and culture. Also, the jury is still out on whether or not the current modern Western industrialized way of life "works" or not. Many would say it doesn't work, which is why society is collapsing as we speak -- starting with the family.

wallflower · « **Reply #4 on:** May 27, 2014, 03:42:33 PM »

We've thought this for a very long time as well. Fathers were taken out of the home, then mothers and then conveniently so were the children (public school, daycare, extracurriculars etc... while mom and dad are working long hours).

Ours was a farming family and my dad was around the house more than most. Yes, he'd get up early and be out of the house for 5 AM but he'd come in for breakfast around 9-10 and we'd get to see him. He'd come in for lunch and barring problems around the farm he'd be there for supper too. He was never so far away that we couldn't go visit him during the day. Some of my best memories are going to the barn with him. In fact there are a couple of songs that instantly trigger those memories because he played the radio over the barn speakers and they happened to be the popular songs of the time. They are very nostalgic for me.

I know there are many even among trads who get very defensive when "the land" is cited as one of the best ways not only to live but to raise a family. I chalk it up to a bit of ignorance. Many really do not know what they are missing. It is one of the best ways to live as a family. A unit that lives together, works together, interacts with each other, and lives closest to God's creation, pure and simple.

If you're homeschooling to boot, well, then you've got Dad, Mom and children all together. If a person reacts to that as if it were a nightmare, there's something wrong with them and their view of family.

Of course that togetherness isn't only achieved farming. Many businessmen now have home offices. Some families have apartments attached to their stores. They are also in better positions to keep the family together as a unit. There are many ways to go about it if a family makes it a priority and doesn't get sucked into the idea that today's habits are normal or anywhere near healthy.

I did have one thought about her remark that work is his life. Bishop Williamson always gave conferences regarding men being centered in their work. Generally speaking this is natural and good. It is their God-given place, not only as providers for their families but for themselves as men, dominating the earth. Then women, in their role as helpmates, and children are centered around the men. There's a natural order and hierarchy. But there's a feminist streak out there that wants men to revolve around wives and children to the same extent as wives and children revolve around men. They lack the perspective of work being the man's directive from God and intrinsic to his identity and well-being. They want him essentially to "adore" his wife and children and make them the center of his universe. I don't think this is what the woman was thinking, I know she is referring to the non-family-oriented way this society is set up. But it's good to keep in the backs of our minds for balance.

stbrighidswell · « **Reply #5 on:** May 27, 2014, 05:04:49 PM »

This is something I have wondered about too. When living off the land the family unit were exactly that , a unit which interacted all day.
Now with daddy gone for 8 hours plus commute he is so tired at the end of a day that he is barely able to talk. Then if your the mother with a few kids, your tired but cannot ask the dad to take over the kids for awhile as he is just in the door. Then you have kids in from a 6 hour school day and they then have homework and dinner before they get to relax. The days are structured but very limited for any fluid conversations.

Traditionally on the land the father came to and fro from the house and he probably took the older kids with him on the land to teach them how to farm so the mother wasn't left with all the kids all day long.
Another thing that strikes me is that maybe God designed farms to give space for a family to work and live but now we have huge populations living in condensed residents like housing estates or apartments. This creates irritability as you interaction with people is forced on you and as the world has some people you like and some you don't its inevitable that you have arguments or fall outs etc.

HE really does know best.

PG · « **Reply #6 on:** May 27, 2014, 05:33:34 PM »

Modern societies(modern jobs) demand political correctness(in other words - "shut up and don't be yourself"). With that said, we should not be surprised that when the man comes home, he has nothing to say and or is somewhat bland. It is how he has to be throughout much of his day.

Graham · « **Reply #7 on:** May 27, 2014, 07:14:53 PM »

Fully agree with the premise of this thread and with all the posts so far. The setup of the modern world tends to reduce fathers to money-making units. To a large extent I have made my plans for the future around that very ability to work from home and raise my sons in my trade.

TraditionalistThomas · « **Reply #8 on:** May 28, 2014, 12:15:33 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

From Teacher to Farmer: Why I Went Back to the Land
distributistreview.com

"The attack on the family goes back a long way. Before the industrial revolution families were much more integrated. Men often worked adjacent to the home and families ate 3 meals together. Young boys learned the trade at their father's side. I wish we could return to that!"

I don't!

Unfortunately many people look to the pre-industrial era with some sort of nostalgia and romanticism. Almost like a Disney film. Easy, "simpler" times. Nothing could be further from the truth. Life was extremely tough and difficult. People died in their 30s. If you are reading this now you are probably relaxing on a comfortable office chair. No such luxuries back then. Back breaking work from dawn to dusk.

Geremia · « **Reply #9 on:** May 28, 2014, 01:38:31 AM »

St. Joseph didn't.

Geremia · « **Reply #10 on:** May 28, 2014, 01:45:31 AM »

Quote from: TraditionalistThomas

Quote from: Matthew

From Teacher to Farmer: Why I Went Back to the Land
distributistreview.com

"The attack on the family goes back a long way. Before the industrial revolution families were much more integrated. Men often worked adjacent to the home and families ate 3 meals together. Young boys learned the trade at their father's side. I wish we could return to that!"

I don't!

Unfortunately many people look to the pre-industrial era with some sort of nostalgia and romanticism. Almost like a Disney film. Easy, "simpler" times. Nothing could be further from the truth. Life was extremely tough and difficult. People died in their 30s. If you are reading this now you are probably relaxing on a comfortable office chair. No such luxuries back then. Back breaking work from dawn to dusk.

At least they were men with character.
Most kids today just see their dads winding down on the couch after a long day's work away from home. How can you expect to form their character if this is all they see? Children learn way more by what they see than what you say to them.

Socialism's goal is to break families apart, and this is what suburbanization has done.

ggreg · « **Reply #11 on:** May 28, 2014, 02:57:11 AM »

Why not be smart and adapt to the new reality.

Farming is a crazy option for most of us because we don't have the skills, the backs, the capital to buy the land and machinery etc. I know Trad families who have farms but I don't know a single one who makes an income of $150,000 per year from farming.

Most job opportunities are in offices, hence the giant buildings in the middle of cities and towns. You may have noticed them.

So before you are married you work very hard on developing some skill that people in those business need, be that legal advice, compliance with regulations, sales, marketing, tax avoidance, connecting to other businesses, deal finding, cost reduction, environmental compliance. You continue to sharpen and polish that skill so you remain at the top of your game. You resist any temptation to get bored or have a mid-life crisis or radically change careers in your late 30s. Part of live is doing stuff you don't like. Work should not be fun all of the time. If your industry dies or skill is no longer needed you retrain or adapt.

Initially you work for 5 days a week at an office, but when you are under 30 you can do this and commute and still have some energy left. You have a wife a a few kids but they are young. By 30 you are a consultant billing your services to the businesses you met in your 20s and others that crossed your path. You might need to go in 2 days per week for meetings and such because socialising with people is going to be necessary to continue getting work from them. But at least 3 days per week you will by able to work from home.

I woke up this morning and the first thing I did was reach for my IPad and saw an executive had moved jobs. Wrote him a "congratulations" email and asked him whether his new company required the technology one of my clients sells. I am still lying in bed at 8.49am. My wife is taking the children to an overnight adventure camp. When I have posted this I will go down and make myself a coffee. At 11am I will go to a garden office and work hard for probably 3 hours because the children are away. This evening I will do another 2 hours. Tomorrow morning I will wrap things up for a few days as we are taking a vacation on the south coast. If people email me or call my during that time I will reply on my phone. Since I like my job I don't mind doing an hour here or there on holiday.

I have to stop now as my 5 year old daughter has just shown up and wants the Ipad to play a game. Welcome to the new reality. It is not like the old reality.

Tiffany · « **Reply #12 on:** May 28, 2014, 03:17:39 AM »

The families I know who have small farms do not survive on that income alone. The father has to get a job during the winter and one day or two days during the week all year round. I know 0 trad women who would be OK with their lifestyle as far as adapting to the very low income. They don't take public assistance and eat extremely frugal meals and only see a dr for an emergency. They NEVER eat out or stop for fast food.

wallflower · « **Reply #13 on:** May 28, 2014, 08:23:49 AM »

Quote from: TraditionalistThomas

Quote from: Matthew

From Teacher to Farmer: Why I Went Back to the Land
distributistreview.com

"The attack on the family goes back a long way. Before the industrial revolution families were much more integrated. Men often worked adjacent to the home and families ate 3 meals together. Young boys learned the trade at their father's side. I wish we could return to that!"

I don't!

Unfortunately many people look to the pre-industrial era with some sort of nostalgia and romanticism. Almost like a Disney film. Easy, "simpler" times. Nothing could be further from the truth. Life was extremely tough and difficult. People died in their 30s. If you are reading this now you are probably relaxing on a comfortable office chair. No such luxuries back then. Back breaking work from dawn to dusk.

While I think it's an exaggeration to claim people died in their 30s as if that were the norm, I do agree that many romanticize the pre-industrial era and farming in general. I've known several families who tried to go back to the land or at least have small hobby farms who were completely unprepared for how labor intensive it is. Not only were they unprepared, they were unwilling to do it, rather soft and lazy. They quickly went back to the city whence they came. The irony is that farming is easier now than it was then! And further irony is that the industrial era has helped make it easier.

So in a way I do agree that we can't try to live in the past or build up unrealistic visions for the future, however I think we can still take an objective look at how the changes have affected family life and whether those changes are for the better or worse in the long run. Once we think about that, then we can turn our eyes to today and living in today's world but trying not to make today's mistakes.

There will always be many who cannot escape the rat race, it's so engrained in our society, but if they are able to take an objective look at it, they will be more able to offset those effects in other ways.

Without quoting more posts, I also agree that most couldn't make a living farming today. However, I would encourage anyone who is drawn to it to work towards having a hobby farm. You'll have a few acres, large gardens, orchard, chickens, maybe a dairy cow, basically enough to supply a large family. This way you have all the benefits of a farm and farm life: the adventure of it, fresh food, chores and responsibilities for all, without having to be too much of a slave to it. And when you've got almost everything you need on your own property, you don't need to make $150K a year to "survive". You could do anything and make ends meet. Work a 9-5, work from home, drive bus, be self-employed...while still having something tangible that brings the family together at home. In my opinion this is the most realistic and lucrative compromise.

B from A · « **Reply #14 on:** May 28, 2014, 09:18:21 AM »

Quote from: TraditionalistThomas

Quote from: Matthew

From Teacher to Farmer: Why I Went Back to the Land
distributistreview.com

"The attack on the family goes back a long way. Before the industrial revolution families were much more integrated. Men often worked adjacent to the home and families ate 3 meals together. Young boys learned the trade at their father's side. I wish we could return to that!"

I don't!

Unfortunately many people look to the pre-industrial era with some sort of nostalgia and romanticism. Almost like a Disney film. Easy, "simpler" times. Nothing could be further from the truth. Life was extremely tough and difficult. People died in their 30s. If you are reading this now you are probably relaxing on a comfortable office chair. No such luxuries back then. Back breaking work from dawn to dusk.

Haven't read the original article nor all the posts in the thread, so forgive me if it was answered. But did the author or anyone else say they were "Easy, 'simpler' times"? Another question, from a Catholic standpoint, is "extremely tough & difficult" with "back breaking work from dawn to dusk" necessarily a better way to save your soul than in "luxury" & "relaxing on a comfortable office chair"?

:confused1:

Quote

So in a way I do agree that we can't try to live in the past or build up unrealistic visions for the future, however I think we can still take an objective look at how the changes have affected family life and whether those changes are for the better or worse in the long run. Once we think about that, then we can turn our eyes to today and living in today's world but trying not to make today's mistakes.

There will always be many who cannot escape the rat race, it's so engrained in our society, but if they are able to take an objective look at it, they will be more able to offset those effects in other ways.

Well said.