Author Topic: Sexless marriages and very small families  (Read 4358 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ggreg

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3002
  • Reputation: +177/-175
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
« Reply #75 on: January 24, 2019, 08:43:15 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    If the homo wants to get married so he can turn his life around, that's not malicious.

    If he told her he suspected he was a homo, or inclined that way, and wanted to turn his life around and she still married him - then I'd annul it based on her being insane.

    If he doesn't tell her then that is malicious.  He cannot just co-opt another person into a contract on the basis that it might help cure him, even if he sincerely hopes it will.  Because if it does not, then that woman is trapped married to a homosexual.  You cannot play fast and loose with people's lives like that.  It is completely evil.  It's akin to kidnapping them.

    Offline ggreg

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3002
    • Reputation: +177/-175
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #76 on: January 24, 2019, 08:55:20 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Well, they effectively WERE banned before Vatican II.  What, were there maybe a small handful of annulments granted every year worldwide ... apart from the cut-and-dry cases where it was found that the person had been in a prior marriage or something?  This nonsense about psychological impediments and "immaturity", etc. was not even entertained.  That's what the priest did in marriage preparation, made sure that the couple knew exactly what they were getting into so that by the time they said their vows they knew full well what it entailed.
    What did people do in that case?
    It must have varied by country.  I assume Uganda and West Africa were very different than Portugal or Ireland in that the Africans have always had mistresses etc
    I assume economic reality (women could not work and earn enough to fed and house themselves), meant that since divorce was practically impossible there was little demand for annulments.
    Talking to very, very old people years ago I think such people went to live on the outside of the village, moved to a larger town or city where they could be anonymous and just kept their mouth shut about their domestic arrangements.  There was a sort of don't ask don't tell policy.


    Offline forlorn

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1485
    • Reputation: +592/-891
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #77 on: January 24, 2019, 10:28:11 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • What did people do in that case?
    It must have varied by country.  I assume Uganda and West Africa were very different than Portugal or Ireland in that the Africans have always had mistresses etc
    I assume economic reality (women could not work and earn enough to fed and house themselves), meant that since divorce was practically impossible there was little demand for annulments.
    Talking to very, very old people years ago I think such people went to live on the outside of the village, moved to a larger town or city where they could be anonymous and just kept their mouth shut about their domestic arrangements.  There was a sort of don't ask don't tell policy.
    Well in Ireland divorce was only legalised in the 1990s and before that it worked sort of like you said, where they'd remain legally married(and therefore be unable to remarry) but one of them would go off and live across the country. Although those situations were still very rare, people got separated back then far more rarely than people get divorced today. Because back then they were faithful Catholics who didn't have dozens of "partners" before getting married. 

    Offline ggreg

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3002
    • Reputation: +177/-175
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #78 on: January 24, 2019, 01:21:57 PM »
  • Thanks!4
  • No Thanks!0
  • Because yes, if you're foolish and marry poorly, you ARE going to have to suck it up and pay the price.
    Let's examine what foolish means.
    To some degree marriage is a lottery.  There is an element of luck in it and an element of skill, like playing blackjack.  Unless you are an amazingly skillful blackjack player and can remember which cards have come up then luck is going to play a part in winning and losing.  You simply cannot control and "due-diligence" every factor.  Your wife could slip bang her head and end up mentally ill or develop tourettes or whatever.  She could hide stuff from you.  Trusting anyone is risky.
    Luck plays a part in business success too.  We simply don't see the Jeff Bezos' and Bill Gates' rivals who failed so we imagine the Bezos had some sort of secret sauce or recipe for success.  He did, but he also had luck, how much we could debate forever.  
    • The SSPX doesn't publish a risk reduction guide for marriage.
    • Catholic schools don't teach much about it if anything
    • Most marriage guidance is pretty vanilla stuff about the teaching of the Church.  You are lucky if it touches on practical matters.
    • Before marriage people are on their best behaviour usually.
    • Common sense isn't common, a lot of people lack common sense.
    • The best advice comes from your father and brothers (assuming they know themselves).
    • Young people, especially men, are driven by their hormones.  A man at 50 is FAR FAR FAR more sober in his decision making than a man at 21.  Cast your mind back to the late 80s or early 1990s.   If I think about the way I drive now I am MUCH more cautious and considerate of other road users.  I used to drive like a nutter when I was younger.  I never had a serious accident but I took some risks.  I was a much better driver too.  Now my reactions are slow and my night vision is worse and I need to drive like an old grandad.  I saw a lot of road accidents over the years and it dawned on me how suddenly you can be dead.  I get absolutely ZERO thrill from speeding today.
    • Parents, generally speaking, do not get closely involved in the decisions unless they can see the person is making a HUGE mistake.  It would be interesting to discover how many people with disastrous marriages were warned not to go through with it by a parent, or older sibling.  Hindsight is 20/20

    Trad communities are fractured and the number of choices are small.  ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE RESISTANCE.  We see people trying Catholic match, marrying women from the Philippines (which has its own risks because they are a pretty different culture) and we see men like Tele and others complaining (and I am sure that some of his complaints are real, because I have heard most of them from others) that the more attractive Catholic women in their early 20s don't want to date Trad men.  I actually know of women myself like this.  I grew up with them in London.  In their late teens and 20s they were dating non-Catholic men, some even lived with them in sin in some sort of perverted hope of converting and marrying them and now they are 46 and washed up.  I even had one around to dinner recently and she asked me if I knew any nice single men?

    (None that I dislike that much I thought to myself)   ;D

    Seriously, I know of nobody who is 50 and single and would want to marry a 46 year old woman.


    I was always super confident and had a skin like a rhinoceros, did a lot of sport, took women on outrageous dates, asked anyone out without fear.  I had a reputation for it at the SSPX.

    But even I only properly dated 14 women in my life.  Meaning I went on several dates and there was a clear mutual attraction and the next step was (or would have been) to get serious and start talking marriage (before they bailed or I bailed), i.e. take them home to meet your mother (she was dead but you get my point).  Several of them did meet my father.

    I am not including single dates where I determined "thanks but no thanks".  10 of the 14 dumped me - too intense, just couldn't cope with my driven personality, everyday was like hard work when what they wanted was a pizza and chill on the couch.  They always dumped me for the same reason, which was useful because I knew then they were telling the truth.

    My brothers dated maybe 2 women before they got married to the second or third woman they had dated (they are married today with 12 and 10 kids each).  Not because they did not want to date more women but because they took ages to build up the confidence to ask them out.  Between girlfriends I am going to reckon there was a 18 month gap for them.  For me...7 to 30 days.  It wasn't that I had women waiting in the wings, as such, but I just kept prospecting and turning up opportunities and giving it a go.  That is one advantage of being relentless, you are relentless.

    Now, sure, I accept that if you take either of us with our 50 year old brains and put us in 25 year old bodies we could probably make super low risk choices and marry well again and again and again.  Because we know what good looks like.

    How does a typical Trad man know that in his early 20s?

    What "foolish" things does a Trad Catholic do that they could realistically avoid doing without knowing what foolish is?

    Should they listen to MGTOW and MRA pundits?  No doubt those MGTOW guys have some idea of the problems and how to avoid bad women but do they know how to hunt down a good one?


    These are my top tips.

    Discount looks.  If you think you deserve an 8 out of 10 then drop down 2 just for the sake of experiment and be prepared to date a 6.   Don't avoid 8s or even a cheeky 9, but widen your scope.   I can tell you that the best looking women at the SSPX in London (1984-1994) are not the best looking middle age women now (sorry ladies!).  Some of the 6s have matured into attractive slim middle aged women.  Some of the 9s are landwhales today.  You just never can tell what 30 years will do to a woman.

    You'll only have sex 12-36 times per year (if you're lucky).  You have to live with this woman the other 99.9% of the time.  A pretty women with zero personality or a nasty bitchy character is FAR harder to live with than a nice happier character who is somewhat plain looking.  People cannot help their looks after all.  As real love develops you find that person sexually attractive because it is true what they say about the brain being the biggest sexual organ.  It really is all in the mind.

    God loves us after all and we are hideous compared to him.

    Develop your own personality beyond just your religious life.  Learn to sing, ballroom dance, or some other performance skill.  If you are witty, develop and sharpen your wit.  Pick up some power tools, fix, paint.  If women don't like you as you are, or what you are developing into, run a mile.  There are plenty more fish in the sea, you just have to get a bigger net or superior bait.

    Develop a thick skin.  In 30 years nobody is going to care that a woman said "no" to a date with you.  Smile, say, "well I had to ask, otherwise I would have forever regretted it", and move on to the next opportunity.  Turn over rocks and learn what you don't like so that you will be ready to pot commit to Mrs. Right when she comes along.  That is important.  Not letting the good woman slip though your fingers.  If she is good she will be snapped up by the competition pretty darned fast.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 17812
    • Reputation: +9971/-4471
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #79 on: January 24, 2019, 02:11:15 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • If I think about the way I drive now I am MUCH more cautious and considerate of other road users.  I used to drive like a nutter when I was younger.  I never had a serious accident but I took some risks.  I was a much better driver too.  Now my reactions are slow and my night vision is worse and I need to drive like an old grandad.  I saw a lot of road accidents over the years and it dawned on me how suddenly you can be dead.  I get absolutely ZERO thrill from speeding today.

    I could have written this paragraph.  I also used to ride motorcycles (like an idiot) without a helmet.  When I got married and realized that I couldn't let myself be killed (due to my obligation to support them) ... I stopped.


    Offline Matto

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5648
    • Reputation: +3074/-142
    • Gender: Male
    • Love God and Play, Do Good Work and Pray
      • Julian Moore
    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #80 on: January 24, 2019, 03:25:43 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Greg said a married couple would only have sex 12-36 times a year (if they were lucky).

    Is it really true that a married couple would be lucky to have sex so few times? I was never married so I wouldn't know and I have never asked.
    I Love Watching Butterflies . . ..

    Offline ggreg

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3002
    • Reputation: +177/-175
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #81 on: January 24, 2019, 05:25:59 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It depends who, when where, how old etc.

    But let's put it this way as the testosterone depletes and the days get busier there is a lot of other stuff to get done.  By the time you have cooked the dinner got 6 kids to bed, done some physics and chemistry homework read your little kids "The Gruffalo" for the umpteenth time you are normally not thinking "let's go to bed and have sex" because you are tired and want to sleep.

    Think of it like cooking.  When you are first married or engaged and have all the time in the world to cook Lobster Thermidor or travel into the city to see Hamlet or A Midsummer Night's Dream.

    When you have 4 children under 8 or 2 under 5, forget about it.  You have neither the time nor the inclination.

    36 times per year is once a week basically, figuring on pregnancies, post pregnancy, illness, business trips away, late night conference calls, sick kids waking up, one sick spouse, you haven't shaved, you haven't washed for 5 days, she's on the rag, you have a sore back from gardening. lifting, lying under the car.

    Less than 12 and you've probably got problems, (in my experience of what constitutes normal) but who can tell because people often lie about this stuff.  There's no hard and fast rule, people vary and they establish different normals that they are content with.  Water sort of finds its own level.  Suffice it to say that as the years pass I've come to the conclusion that quality is better than quantity because if you ain't going to make an effort and light some candles and change the bedding, then frankly you kind of wonder why you bothered.  You wake up the next morning and feel the same as if you didn't have sex, so what was the point?  There's got to be more intimacy that an Orthodox Jew who cuts a hole in the sheet or there's no pleasure in it for either party.

    What I do now, is when I am going to a conference or a business trip in Northern Europe or London I bring my wife along or she flies in sees the town while I am working and stays in the hotel with me.  Then we have no kids and no distractions.





    I'm taking my wife to a karaoke night for charity on Saturday so that's a definite (since I will also wash and shave before we leave).  She loves it when I sing.  Russian women are massive romantic fools.

    Offline ggreg

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3002
    • Reputation: +177/-175
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #82 on: January 24, 2019, 06:48:49 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The "if they were lucky" line was a joke from the Four Yorkshiremen sketch.



    Offline MaterDominici

    • Owner's Wife
    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 4931
    • Reputation: +3672/-68
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #83 on: January 25, 2019, 12:30:16 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It depends who, when where, how old etc.

    But let's put it this way as the testosterone depletes and the days get busier there is a lot of other stuff to get done.  By the time you have cooked the dinner got 6 kids to bed, done some physics and chemistry homework read your little kids "The Gruffalo" for the umpteenth time you are normally not thinking "let's go to bed and have sex" because you are tired and want to sleep.

    Think of it like cooking.  When you are first married or engaged and have all the time in the world to cook Lobster Thermidor or travel into the city to see Hamlet or A Midsummer Night's Dream.

    When you have 4 children under 8 or 2 under 5, forget about it.  You have neither the time nor the inclination.

    36 times per year is once a week basically, figuring on pregnancies, post pregnancy, illness, business trips away, late night conference calls, sick kids waking up, one sick spouse, you haven't shaved, you haven't washed for 5 days, she's on the rag, you have a sore back from gardening. lifting, lying under the car.
    If everything you said here is what the husband is choosing to do, then fine, his wife probably isn't going to mind in many cases. But, if the husband isn't satisfied with this sort of "too busy, too tired" paradigm, you can easily double or triple your estimates with a little word called priorities.
    .
    Plenty of couples with "4 under 8" or "2 under 5" manage to have numbers 5 & 3 in a timely manner that suggests they weren't interested in forgetting about it. (Unless you were referring to lobster & Hamlet which are things they probably can't afford at that point anyhow.)
    "If I could only make the faithful sing the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Credo, the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei ... that would be to me the finest triumph sacred music could have, for it is in really taking part in the liturgy that the faithful will preserve their devotion. I would take the Tantum ...

    Offline MaterDominici

    • Owner's Wife
    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 4931
    • Reputation: +3672/-68
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #84 on: January 25, 2019, 12:36:54 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • ...and we see men like Tele and others complaining (and I am sure that some of his complaints are real, because I have heard most of them from others) that the more attractive Catholic women in their early 20s don't want to date Trad men.  I actually know of women myself like this.  I grew up with them in London.  In their late teens and 20s they were dating non-Catholic men, some even lived with them in sin in some sort of perverted hope of converting and marrying them and now they are 46 and washed up.  I even had one around to dinner recently and she asked me if I knew any nice single men?
    I don't think this was exactly his problem. He wasn't being pushed away because he was Trad, he was being pushed away because he was 10+ years older than the girl in question. Some people have no problem with this, others have a HUGE problem with it. His interest happened to fall toward a family who had a problem with it. (And then there's the unemployed at age 30 element ... I doubt that was working in his favor.)
    "If I could only make the faithful sing the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Credo, the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei ... that would be to me the finest triumph sacred music could have, for it is in really taking part in the liturgy that the faithful will preserve their devotion. I would take the Tantum ...

    Offline ggreg

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3002
    • Reputation: +177/-175
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #85 on: January 25, 2019, 02:51:14 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • If I remember it was a fairly constant refrain of his that far too many SSPX ladies were pious on Sundays and sluts the rest of the week, and if you couldnt get one by 21 she was very likely rotten fruit and in effect a stepford wife playing an act of piety.  He spoke of it in the present tense not the past and gave other anecdotes.

    That was the motivation for the PR girl if I recall.  I think he openly admitted it.  "Get them young before they are spoilt by the world", (i am paraphrasing).

    He had it blown out of all proportion but there was a kernel of truth there.  I know of some very screwed up situations, blown opportunities, open goals missed.  Women think they have all the time in the world, they dont.

    When I was at Uni I used to go to car auctions and buy second hand cars to sell.  The trick was to bid on everything you remotely wanted and bid low and therefore get yourself in the running and auctioneer looking at you.   But if you were buying one car bid always bid towards the end, car were cheaper, because demand dropped.  I never went home empty handed because I focused on the fact that I only needed to buy one car and took them one at a time.  Other people procrastinated on the Audi hoping they would get a bargain on the BMW coming next, then were so distracted by the fact it made 25% above book that they missed the Ford or were not confident to bid on it because they had not heard the engine start up.

    Some Trad men make the same mistake of worrying about the health of the wood and a few diseased trees, when all they need to do is cut down one healthy tree.

    Tele sank enough emotional and intellectual effort in to marry 10 women.  But he only needed to marry 1.


    Offline ggreg

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3002
    • Reputation: +177/-175
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #86 on: January 25, 2019, 03:17:18 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Every three days would be good going.  Like the size of anglers' fish we will never know the truth.

    I don't think frequency has a great deal to do with how many children you have so cannot be implied.  There are so many other factors involved including the man and woman's fertility that two couples having sex every three days versus every three weeks could end up with the same number of children.  The only thing you can say for sure is that a large number of families with 2 or 3 children after 15 years shows something is amiss in that population.

    My 6 siblings have 52 between them.  I asked and so I am pretty sure I am right.   One thing about me, I collect data.

    Anyway, suffice it to say Matto that it ranges from "a lot" to "sweet fanny adams".   Think of it like a scratchcard at the 7 to 11.

    Totally different to what I expected as a young turk, but nice all the same.  On my deathbed, I reckon I will be thinking about my daughter winning her school's cross country race, my son's first boxing fight and how I rebuilt the house with my own two hands.  The kids and family unit are the best part of marriage for me by far.  Seeing them grow and thrive is the jewel in the crown.  If I had to get married again using a time machine that is what i would enjoy the most bringing up the children.

    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 23003
    • Reputation: +20146/-243
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #87 on: January 25, 2019, 08:03:18 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Every three days would be good going.  Like the size of anglers' fish we will never know the truth.

    I don't think frequency has a great deal to do with how many children you have so cannot be implied.  There are so many other factors involved including the man and woman's fertility that two couples having sex every three days versus every three weeks could end up with the same number of children.  The only thing you can say for sure is that a large number of families with 2 or 3 children after 15 years shows something is amiss in that population.

    I was just going to say that you're giving a bit too much information about your life there, Greg. Hahaha

    As always, there are some elements of your post that I agree with. For example, the ridiculous assertion of hedonistic worldlings that if you have a large family, you must have an above-average amount of sex. Do they not understand how conception happens? The hedonistic modern world is sex-obsessed. And in this case, it doesn't even make sense. 

    But on the other hand, I'd like to point out that some couples are different from you and your wife, and some Catholic families are nothing like yours.

    Our family doesn't EVER deal with late night conference calls or business trips, for example.

    Testosterone (and energy level in general) depends a lot on one's genetics, diet, and habits. Some men have real issues with T even their early 20's (just look at the crew at Buzzfeed. Talk about a bunch of soy-boy low T beta males!) but some men have no issues at all in their 40's or older.

    Testosterone requires cholesterol (read: MEAT) and strenuous use of muscles causes men to produce more of it. Also, obesity KILLS men in this department.
    Start your Amazon.com session by clicking this link, and my family and I get a commission on your purchase!

    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 23003
    • Reputation: +20146/-243
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #88 on: January 25, 2019, 09:51:51 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Greg said a married couple would only have sex 12-36 times a year (if they were lucky).

    Is it really true that a married couple would be lucky to have sex so few times? I was never married so I wouldn't know and I have never asked.
    Ggreg is speaking for himself...hahaha
    Don't let him scare you away from marriage. 
    Start your Amazon.com session by clicking this link, and my family and I get a commission on your purchase!

    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 23003
    • Reputation: +20146/-243
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #89 on: January 25, 2019, 09:54:44 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • My 6 siblings have 52 between them.  I asked and so I am pretty sure I am right.   One thing about me, I collect data.

    Anyway, suffice it to say Matto that it ranges from "a lot" to "sweet fanny adams".   Think of it like a scratchcard at the 7 to 11.
    Actually, you should realize the flaws in your scientific methodology. You and your brothers/sisters all have the same genetics. Probably the same energy level, aging pattern, testosterone level, etc. At least very similar. You not only have the same nature, but the same nurture as well. Not a good statistical cross-section from which to draw broad conclusions.
    Start your Amazon.com session by clicking this link, and my family and I get a commission on your purchase!

     

    Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16