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Offline ggreg

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Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2019, 12:28:54 PM »
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  • So, can we make a risk management checklist for men who are trying to find a wife.

    1.  Talk about everything and anything by date 4 and try to discuss other relationships rather than direct questioning the other person.  Because they are more likely to give their true thoughts if it is not about them and they don't feel put on the spot.

    2.  Pray and soul-search about the real reason you like Teresa or Patrick and ask would God think that a sensible, just, holy reason to like a person.

    3.  Look at their older siblings and their mum and dad.  Apple rarely falls far from the tree.  It is a rare woman who grows up middle class and is going to happy living on 50% of the income her parents had.  It can happen, but it is rare.  It's rare that a slut has two chaste sisters and if they do they tend to overreact and be a super slut which is always obvious.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #31 on: January 23, 2019, 12:30:33 PM »
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  • As with other things, "winners make their own luck" in marriage and you as a successful man should understand this. (FYI, I'm not implying you don't understand this.)

    I wasn't scared to marry my wife because I had *moral* certitude I'd be OK. She was the volunteering sort, responsible, intelligent, chaste, modest, a good Catholic, still had her purity, etc. Even in the looks department, she had the traits I was after. But note that my taste in women wasn't formed by the porn industry or Hollywood. She wasn't the prom queen or a cheerleader, but she was the valedictorian. But I was also very comfortable around her. I just knew it was right. Our personalities were a good match. And we talked a lot about important topics (the faith, children, the modern world, etc.), and the comfort level just went up from there.

    Her mom was also a lot like my mom, very German. Culture/background/upbringing is very important in having shared values -- hence fewer disagreements. My wife and I also had the same socio-economic background. I think that also helped in our success (so far).

    I would definitely say I married well. But it wasn't an accident. A blessing, but not an accident.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #32 on: January 23, 2019, 12:31:13 PM »
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  • Quote
    The process of thinking about it in a rational way and being considerate of other factors than say beauty or youth or her outward piousness, might, I agree, be a sober and mature way to make a better decision about who to marry, but I can't see how God's actual input can ever be tested, other than if the marriage goes bad then clearly it "wasn't God's choice" or you didn't listen hard enough.
    It depends what you mean by the marriage "going bad".  I would categorize our current topic (intent for children/marital relations) as being MAJOR, foundational problems.  I think this type of thing can be avoided if God is allowed in our lives.  Vocations are a spiritual decision; God will surely show us what He feels about such choices.  God wants marriages to be happy and loving because that is a reflection of the Holy Trinity.

    However, just because 2 people don't have many personal issues doesn't mean married life won't be without challenges - low finances, sick children, handicap/medical issues, infertility, exterior persecutions, etc, etc.  Everyone has these types of challenges, whether married or not.  These are not foundational marriage problems, but just life.  But, i'd say that a blessing from God is that you have a spouse to help you through these challenges, as one of the secondary purposes of marriage is "mutual consolation". 

    Quote
    If all goes well you might consider that God chose for you.  But you don't have a note or any evidence to that effect.  It is purely a faith that God guided you.  If it goes terribly, the sort of person who thinks God guided them usually does not come to the conclusion that God got it wrong.
    It appears to me that one can pray to God, listen, consult, think consider, but in the end one decides to pop the question and ultimately chooses.

    I've never really got this 'listen to God" thing myself.  I've been a Catholic for 50 years and never heard so much as peep back when I have prayed.  I'd like to.  I think it would be really exciting to hear voices from the other side.
    God "talks" to people in different ways - some through life circumstances, some through "coincidences", some through their parents/superiors, some through actual words.  I know of multiple stories where God answered a VERY specific prayer for people so that they would know that path A was better than path B.  Most of the time, God speaks through situations or people, but sometimes He does enlighten us directly through our angels by inspiration or by talking - as God spoke to Moses or St Paul.  It's infallible that God will give us His wisdom, since all prayers are infallibly answered.

    Offline ggreg

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    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #33 on: January 23, 2019, 01:00:35 PM »
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  • Yes, valid marriage.
    So, based on an intention that can only be displayed/shown after the marriage is underway then a Tribunal would decide, due to behaviours of either spouse, whether the intention on the day was real, correctly understood etc.  There is an underlying belief that a person with a good intention on the day of the wedding didn't do an about face and change their intention within the first few months of the marriage.
    So, if a man finds himself in a sexless marriage, at what point and with what force of will, does he decide to separate divorce and try to obtain an annulment?
    The clock is kinda ticking.  It is not unlike getting your money back for a pair of shoes that go wrong.  You better get back to the shop early and complain because with every week that passes and they split a little more, the shop is going to say fair wear and tear.
    From your answers above it appears that a child (or I would assume a pregnancy, even if the child is lost) lessens his case for the marriage being invalid.  If children are conceived there was enough sex, even if that amounted to once per year.
    So let's say for the first 6 months he is super patient and very kind and loving (people tend to be) and then from month 7 to 12 he starts ratcheting up the pressure.  In month 13 she has sex with him on his birthday and then it is back to her normal frigid self.  He is playing a dicey game as the months and years tick by because the chances of his advocate demonstrating lack of intent to procreate go down.  At some point, he has to make a decision to force it to a head and say, "have sex with me once a week or I am leaving, divorcing you and applying for an annulment", OR carry on hoping that things will magically turn around.
    Not unlike working for a venture capital firm in fact.  I sit in meeting all the time where we ruthlessly thrash through which firms to love and which firms to bankrupt or fire the senior management.  It's all roses and hopium until the dreaded day that someone like me spells out why their sales forecast is dogshit and they are going to need to be put down. 


    I realise that is a very cold way to look at things, but it is a REALISTIC way to look at things too, given the fact that a long marriage with one child has a much lower chance of getting an annulment than a short marriage with no children.
    If the man wants a normal healthy marriage and a family in the future, then he really needs to force things to a head one way or another.

    Offline ggreg

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    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #34 on: January 23, 2019, 01:09:12 PM »
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  • As with other things, "winners make their own luck" in marriage and you as a successful man should understand this.
    Winners also have checklists.  They apply rules and experience.  They call this "gut feel" but in reality it is experience.  I can actually "smell" good clients.  I know the noise they make when they are going to buy, sell or pay me big bucks for consulting.  I also can spot the time wasters and tyre-kickers in the opening two minutes of a phone conversation.

    Experience, however, is the one thing that young men tend to lack.  As a 21 year old I chased a lot of stupid business deals.

    In a very real and true sense, young men would be better off saying to Greg or Matthew, "you know me you choose for me".  Because we'd pick more suitable women and lower the risks.

    Firstly we have done it already.  Experience is the best teacher.

    Secondly we don't want to sleep with their potential spouse, so we'd put her good looks into perspective.  We also know how women age.  Some like fine wine, most like potatoes.  We'd probably take a long hard look at the young ladies mother, as well.  Is she a miserable old bag or a nice middle age lady?

    It would not be riskless but it would be much lower risk.



    Offline ggreg

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    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #35 on: January 23, 2019, 01:17:17 PM »
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  • It depends what you mean by the marriage "going bad".  I think this type of thing can be avoided if God is allowed in our lives.
    But I can think of many examples where very outwardly religious people split up.  In 1992/1993 when I lived there, they used to joke about the number or annulments in St. Mary's Kansas.  These were mostly Catholics who had allowed God into their lives so much that they moved across the country to be in an SSPX dominated town.
    Other than outward signs of piety there is no way to tell whether the person has allowed God into their lives.
    Mel Gibson made The Passion of the Christ and built his own church.  Had he allowed God into his life at that point?  Most people thought so at the time.

    How's that assessment looking now?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #36 on: January 23, 2019, 01:47:53 PM »
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    In a very real and true sense, young men would be better off saying to Greg or Matthew, "you know me you choose for me".  Because we'd pick more suitable women and lower the risks.
    It's why there used to be "arranged" marriages.  Or why young adults USED TO have their date hang around the family a lot (i.e. courtship).  As they say, "love is blind".

    Offline ggreg

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    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #37 on: January 23, 2019, 01:57:07 PM »
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  • Lots of Trads don't have families to hang around.

    Distance is a problem.  We are not in the same village.

    I suspect the BIGGEST factor is the social pressure that existed in the past and no longer exists.  People in the village knew what you had done and reminded you every day.

    Even when I was young in the 1980s being a single mother had a stigma attached to it.  In the last 20 years it has completely disappeared.

    Same for prison.  When I was a nipper if you went to jail your life was over.  Nobody would employ you and your reputation was mud.  Today it gets you half a million extra Facebook followers.

    It is a common thing in Russia for women to remain with abusive, lazy, workshy, drunken husbands because they are completely embarrassed and ashamed to be divorced.  This is especially true in the villages.  Provided the man doesn't cheat on them in a public way they tend to stick around.  In the bigger cities they divorce because of no social stigma.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #38 on: January 23, 2019, 02:10:39 PM »
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    So, if a man finds himself in a sexless marriage, at what point and with what force of will, does he decide to separate divorce and try to obtain an annulment?  ...The clock is kinda ticking. 
    Yes, I agree.  I don't know how the Church views this type of situation.  I'd bet that, in orthodox times, the answer would likely be "Nothing we can do; this is a valid marriage."  Annulments were extremely rare pre-V2.

    Quote
    From your answers above it appears that a child (or I would assume a pregnancy, even if the child is lost) lessens his case for the marriage being invalid.  If children are conceived there was enough sex, even if that amounted to once per year.
    I don't think marital relations are the litmus test (assuming it's happened once).  The test would be related to the intention and if there were impediments to entering the marital contract.  Such judgements did not happen often in times past (annulments were rare).  The Church relied upon the "process" of the marriage to assume it's validity, in most cases.  That is:

    1.  The parish priest knew both families (as most marriages were from people from the same diocese or parish).
    2.  If the priest didn't know one of the partners, he inquired with the other parish priest as to their reputation, history, etc.
    3.  Assuming all that checked out, and both parties were valid catholics (with documents to prove reception of the sacraments and schooling, etc), then the couple would proceed with marriage classes, provided by the parish.
    4.  The classes would cover the basics of the sacrament, the impediments, the responsibilities and duties.
    5.  If after all of this, there was a marriage, then the Church would assume validity (assuming the marriage was consumated).

    Hard to argue with the Church and cry "foul" or "annulment" when all the externals match up.  If one of the spouses goes "crazy" after marriage, then the only option that the "normal" spouse has is prayer and fasting - that God would sort things out.

    Outside of this, I'd fear that the "normal" spouse is in a very difficult situation from which there is no solution, except death.  As the jews asked Christ, after He reiterated that divorce was wrong, "If the case of a man with his wife be so, it is not expedient to marry." (Matt 19:10) 

    Christ responded:  Who said to them: All men take not this word, but they to whom it is given. 12For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it(Matt 19:11-12) 

    Offline ggreg

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    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #39 on: January 23, 2019, 02:18:35 PM »
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  • I am beginning to have more sympathy for MGTOW monks when I hear some of these horror stories.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #40 on: January 23, 2019, 02:53:49 PM »
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  • I think the biggest problem of our day is that females (including Trads) have been corrupted into either 1) a Disney-land fantasy view of marriage where they can't deal with any hardships or hard work, 2) wanting a career and a marriage both, which leads to chaos, 3) not truly grasping the challenges of motherhood and (maybe) not wanting those challenges (see #1 and #2 above).

    I'm not saying that modern marriages are falling apart JUST because of women.  I'm saying that, in the grand scheme of things, the woman usually holds a marriage together (in the early stages) during rough patches, until the man finally "wakes up" and becomes a man.  Men have always been more immature, selfish and commitment-phobic in all times of history.  This is nothing new and the solutions are known because the problem has been around for so long.

    But the realities of immature, selfish and lazy women - who aren't really "all in" on the marriage or motherhood - this is not normal, not easy to deal with and far, far more destructive than such qualities in men.  If women are corrupted, so goes society, because a woman who is corrupted affects an entire family, and eventually a nation.  A man that is corrupted usually only affects himself, or others to a lesser degree than women, because man, by nature, is more independent, so his errors are more isolated.  


    Offline ggreg

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    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #41 on: January 23, 2019, 03:09:29 PM »
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  • The biggest problem is that they can get away with the above at least from the age of 16-40.

    Once their looks go they are cast into the outer darkness.  As older women often complain they are invisible (worthless).

    The social stigma was a huge factor in controlling behavior of men and women.  Most people care SO MUCH about what people think of them.  Hence Facebook likes, subscribers and twitter "followers".

    That has not changed a jot and never will.  The parameters of what is socially and morally acceptable have done a 180.


    Offline Croixalist

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    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #42 on: January 23, 2019, 03:10:33 PM »
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  • Would it be fair to assume that if married couples really start thinking of sex as a "debt", things might already be a tad shaky? 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #43 on: January 23, 2019, 03:17:01 PM »
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  • Would it be fair to assume that if married couples really start thinking of sex as a "debt", things might already be a tad shaky?

    Indeed.  I would assume that most people would be unsatisfied and hurt if their spouse were merely reluctantly rendering said "debt" out of a sense of duty.  Of course, theologians use the term to indicate that there is a moral obligation, but IMO the obligation goes beyond simply doing the physical act.  At that point, however, it becomes rather subjective, so moral theologians stay away from subjective stuff that cannot be expressed in the form of a syllogism.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #44 on: January 23, 2019, 03:17:32 PM »
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  • Would it be fair to assume that if married couples really start thinking of sex as a "debt", things might already be a tad shaky?
    That's the technical term used by the Church. It's called the marriage debt. Either spouse can demand the debt at any time. It's part of the marriage contract.
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