Read an Interview with Matthew, the owner of CathInfo

Author Topic: Sexless marriages and very small families  (Read 3464 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ggreg

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3002
  • Reputation: +166/-170
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
« Reply #60 on: January 23, 2019, 05:46:05 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Can.  1098 A person contracts invalidly who enters into a marriage deceived by maliceperpetrated to obtain consentconcerning some quality of the other partner which by its very nature can gravely disturb the partnership of conjugal life.


    I would have to think that homosexuality qualifies.

    Offline ggreg

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3002
    • Reputation: +166/-170
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #61 on: January 23, 2019, 05:57:22 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • How many turn homosexual because they just have to be validated sexually. It's like "well, I don't really enjoy grilling chicken, but I like fire so I think I must be called to burn houses down." Every homosexual act is homicidal.
    Not many.
    I think most normal men find the idea of any sort of sexual activity with another man disgusting.
    I'd no sooner have an inclination to be "validated" by a man than by a dog.
    What might happen is that people get their brains wired up wrong in youth.  The onslaught of media today is relentless.  Then there are perverts and some people seem to just have a preference for being evil.  They want to be evil.
    Frankly, it is a completely mystery to me.  It's like cooking a nice steak and marinating it in poop.  What on earth is the point?
    I see homosexuality like I see modern art as a deliberate rebellion against what is beautiful and good just for the sake of pride and stabbing at good.
    The new mass is the same thing.  It's deliberately shitty and stupid and banal.  If the new mass was all there was I would lapse.  It's just utter turgid cobblers.


    You see this at kids parties sometimes.  20 kids are having a great time and one kid just comes in and wrecks the game for the delight of being evil and different and rebellious.

    Diabolical disorientation.


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3748
    • Reputation: +2334/-1085
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #62 on: January 23, 2019, 05:58:21 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    If homosexuals are unsuitable to be priests, then how are they suitable to be husbands and fathers of children?

    It depends if they were an outright, practicing homo or just someone with inclinations and effeminacy.  These types of people, either way, are unsuitable for both priesthood and marriage, but...someone who has just "inclinations" is not necessarily prohibited from these sacraments.  What I mean is that such inclinations/temptations aren't impediments, sacramentally speaking.  Though we all know, in practice, these traits are a disaster.  That's why you prepare in seminary for 6 years and why you date - to be on the lookout for timebombs.

    Quote
    I would imagine, if it is grounds, it would be based on hiding a material fact from the spouse which is critical to the primary purpose of marriage. 
    If he were a practicing homo before and after marriage, then probably grounds since he didn't have any intention to be faithful.  But if he did want to stay faithful, but she just found out about his inclinations later, even if he had cheated on her, then I don't see how it could be annulled.  A seminarian in the same situation would be a valid priest, it's just that in former days, were his inclinations to be found out, he'd be "retired" to either an ecclesiastical prison or a monastery on some island.


    Quote
     Much like a man who lied about being a baptised Catholic got married on that basis and then later admitted he was a fraud.
    That's different, because it's a noted impediment to marriage.


    Quote
    Let's imagine a man was a convicted paedophile got out of jail and hid that from his future wife.  Surely that would be ground for an annulment.  He hoodwinked her.  As I understand it you cannot hoodwink a person into marriage.
    As bad as that is, immorality isn't an impediment to marriage.  Prayer and due diligence would have these items surface before marriage, as God has promised.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3748
    • Reputation: +2334/-1085
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #63 on: January 23, 2019, 06:04:15 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    Can.  1098 A person contracts invalidly who enters into a marriage deceived by maliceperpetrated to obtain consentconcerning some quality of the other partner which by its very nature can gravely disturb the partnership of conjugal life.


    I would have to think that homosexuality qualifies.
    Yes, agree, if the person had no intentions of halting his disordered life.  "Malice" is the key word.  If the homo wants to get married so he can turn his life around, that's not malicious.  It might be a poor plan of action, or hopeful thinking with no realistic chance of happening, but I wouldn't say it's deceitful.  But most people who are impure often lie, so maybe deceit is part of it?  It's uber-complicated.  Malice would have to be proven somehow.

    Offline ggreg

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3002
    • Reputation: +166/-170
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #64 on: January 23, 2019, 06:05:06 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Due diligence?

    Who here ran their spouse through the criminal records bureau for a check before marrying them?

    My wife told me she was doing a PhD and working for LukOil.   I believed her.

    If she was a skilled con-artist she could easily have hoodwinked me.

    People get conned all the time, because we operate on trust.  We only check people out when we have good reasons to be suspicious.


    Offline ggreg

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3002
    • Reputation: +166/-170
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #65 on: January 23, 2019, 06:06:44 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • In the above case his parents knew he was a homo.

    So he must have known too.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3748
    • Reputation: +2334/-1085
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #66 on: January 23, 2019, 06:09:33 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Due diligence would mean, for marriage, to have all kinds of discussions while dating about all types of topics, meeting their family, friends, etc (as we've discussed previously).  Then there's spiritual due diligence where you pray and ask God to show you why this person is/isn't for you.  Most people let their emotions control the show, as Elvis sang "...Only fools rush in..."

    Offline ggreg

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3002
    • Reputation: +166/-170
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #67 on: January 23, 2019, 06:18:35 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • If a skilled deceiver wants to deceive you then the chances are they can.  Pre-internet it was even easier.


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3748
    • Reputation: +2334/-1085
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #68 on: January 23, 2019, 06:28:53 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    In the above case his parents knew he was a homo...So he must have known too.
    Sorry, I missed this part.  Certainly this would make a compelling case for annulment.  


    Quote
    If a skilled deceiver wants to deceive you then the chances are they can.  Pre-internet it was even easier.
    I agree with you, on the natural level, which is why you pray.  I firmly believe, without a shadow of a doubt, that if one approaches dating with an open heart to God's will, with prayer and patience, and a desire to find a spouse that will help you to get to heaven, God will answer you.

    Offline MaterDominici

    • Owner's Wife
    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 4883
    • Reputation: +3639/-51
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #69 on: January 24, 2019, 01:14:26 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • From your answers above it appears that a child (or I would assume a pregnancy, even if the child is lost) lessens his case for the marriage being invalid.  If children are conceived there was enough sex, even if that amounted to once per year.
    .
    I usually try to read to the end of a thread before replying, but it seems you all had too much free time today. : )
    .
    Regarding the quote above, that first child isn't so much a sign of "enough sex must be happening", but rather is a reason in and of himself to not annul the marriage. Even one child deserves and father and a mother, and once that child is born, the intention of one of the spouses to procreate becomes a lesser concern. The departing spouse's argument would essentially be, "I wish to abandon this child so that I might possibly have more with someone else."
    "If I could only make the faithful sing the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Credo, the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei ... that would be to me the finest triumph sacred music could have, for it is in really taking part in the liturgy that the faithful will preserve their devotion. I would take the Tantum ...

    Offline ggreg

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3002
    • Reputation: +166/-170
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #70 on: January 24, 2019, 03:15:51 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • As I understand it, you were either validly married on the day or not.  If not, you are no more married than an unmarried person.  The tribunal looks at the circumstances and behavior in your marriage to determine the likely state of mind up to and on the day of your wedding.  They cannot ever know for certain they just work on the balance of probabilites like any legal judgement.

    A man could have a child or many children with a live in girlfriend of 10 years and be free to marry if he leaves her.  A woman could have illegitemate children from many different men and be free to marry.

    A priest who had abandonned his vocation could have a wedding have 7 children and would not be married.  That is the nature of the sacramental bond. It either exists or it does not.

    The marriage is determined to have never been real in the first place.  Therefore pragmatic considerations such as the welfare of children should not be part of that decisioning process or if they are, ONLY, in the sense that they give evidence to the state of mind up to and on the wedding day.

    This is why it is ridiculous for Mel Gibson or Bud MacFarlane Jr to apply for or consider an annulment.  Because their married life suggests they were completely married.

    Someone in a sexless marriage, however, suggests they (one or both) have no clue what marriage is about, its PRIMARY purpose.  One child being born because his wife agreed to sex for one night, and then went back to refusing sex would demonstrate a completely perverted understanding of the duties of marriage.


    Offline ggreg

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3002
    • Reputation: +166/-170
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #71 on: January 24, 2019, 03:36:02 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Imagine this case.

    A man an a women marry sacramentally, have a wedding process,  in the Novus Ordo church.  He is a porn addict and has hidden this from her.  He cannot maintain an erection with normal intercourse.  Porn use, has this effect on some men as it messes up your neurotransmitters like cocaine does.  On one occasion using porn in the bedroom as a stimulus he has sex with his wife.

    She gets pregnant and has a child.

    12 months after the baby is born she is appealling to a Tribunal for an annulment.  You are on the tribunal panel of judges.

    What you need to consider is whether a porn addicted male understood and consented to the primary duties of marriage.  If he did they are married, for better or worse.  If he didn't, they are no more married than if she didn't get pregnant.  It is not within your remit to consider the child.  You are a judge, not a social worker.

    If the welfare of children made a marriage a marriage then the Church would have insisted on shot gun weddings long long ago.




    Offline ggreg

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3002
    • Reputation: +166/-170
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #72 on: January 24, 2019, 03:57:25 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I wonder what would happen if the Church banned annulments.  Simply said, approach marriage with extreme caution and if it all goes horribly wrong there is no safety net.

    Plenty of people would of course just civilly marry outside the Church.  I know lots of Trads who came back to the Church age 60+ after their glory days were behind them or their partner dies.  Matthew discusses such a couple above.

    People would probably get married a lot later.

    Would there be a lot more engagements broken off?

    There is no safety net for Hell after all.  You find yourself there and you are burning for all eternity.

    The past had very different social mores and stigmas.  Life was harder in general and people probably thought about their illnesses, death of friends or whether they would make it through the winter.  Wives regularly died and men who could afford to support another didn't find it difficult to find someone who needed a roof over their head.  Much the same in some poor countries today.  Just saw a documentary about poor Chinese farmers importing Indonesian peasant women to marry.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 16533
    • Reputation: +9075/-3683
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #73 on: January 24, 2019, 08:01:58 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Can.  1098 A person contracts invalidly who enters into a marriage deceived by malice, perpetrated to obtain consent, concerning some quality of the other partner which by its very nature can gravely disturb the partnership of conjugal life.


    I would have to think that homosexuality qualifies.

    Absolutely; there's no question about that.  Also, if he knew he had an STD (and concealed that fact), that too would qualify for deceit that would "gravely disturb the partnership of conjugal life".

    And you are also correct about your other statement.  What matters is the intention at the time that the marriage was contracted.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 16533
    • Reputation: +9075/-3683
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
    « Reply #74 on: January 24, 2019, 08:11:08 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • I wonder what would happen if the Church banned annulments.  Simply said, approach marriage with extreme caution and if it all goes horribly wrong there is no safety net.

    Well, they effectively WERE banned before Vatican II.  What, were there maybe a small handful of annulments granted every year worldwide ... apart from the cut-and-dry cases where it was found that the person had been in a prior marriage or something?  This nonsense about psychological impediments and "immaturity", etc. was not even entertained.  That's what the priest did in marriage preparation, made sure that the couple knew exactly what they were getting into so that by the time they said their vows they knew full well what it entailed.

     

    Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16