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Author Topic: Sexless marriages and very small families  (Read 62172 times)

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Offline ggreg

Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2019, 11:18:14 AM »
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4. Hypothetical - Couple marry young, woman is fertile and has 10 children by the age of 35.  A some point the husband who has a blue collar job is worked ragged providing for them all and just says, "no more".  Since they are not going to abuse NFP the only thing they can do is stop having sex.  However the wife still wants to have sex and is open to having more children and making the triple bunk beds into quadruple bunk beds like a submarine.  At what points can the husband lay down the law and say we HAVE to stop.


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The husband would sin by not fulfilling the marriage debt to his wife.  The husband cannot command that there be no more children; the wife must freely commit and agree to a period of abstinence.




Clearly in the example the idea of the wife applying for getting an annulment would be insane.  He clearly had an intention to have children when he married because he had 10.  There is no stipulation that for the marriage to remain valid he has to retain that intention all the way to her menopause.

Sure, he is sinning, but they are validly married; at least on the basis of intention to procreate.  Would you agree?

Intention to have children, therefore has to be judged post-facto by the behavior in the first few years of the marriage.   Is this correct ?

You cannot prove what the intention was before the wedding day or on it.  You only have two witnesses and they are both biased.
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Offline ggreg

Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2019, 11:21:05 AM »
Quote from: Matthew on January 23, 2019, 11:13:57 AM
I agree this is a very relevant issue for so many Trad Catholics. Much more relevant than, say, the current juridical status of Pope Francis.

It is also more complex (and should I say, "interesting?") than the easy-to-describe and easy-to-comprehend case of the small family of the convert to Tradition. I have mentioned before the classic meme of the Baby Boomer who is a huge volunteer and pillar of the chapel, makes big donations, but:

* His extended family/kids are never seen at the chapel.
* He and his wife only have 2 or 3 children - they left childbearing years before finding the Catholic Faith and/or Tradition, so they are "off the hook" so to speak
* They are therefore materially well off -- nothing they can do about it now
* They have plenty of time too, since they are well off and/or retired, and don't have many kids or grandkids to occupy them

I say: those people BETTER volunteer and get out their checkbooks. I'll go one further: they should be grateful (rather than condescending) to the large, young Trad families around them, who can only manage to donate $20/week to the collection, and little of their free time, because they are busy raising more Catholics for the future. Something that (even though they are technically guiltless) THEY THEMSELVES objectively failed to do!

Don't get me wrong: hooray for these converts. God bless them. Let's face it: what else can they do now? Exactly what they're doing: Volunteer, be generous with all that extra money. But as part of their penance, they should be willing to understand and be charitable to those young families struggling to raise large Catholic families in 2019, which is almost a heroic feat. Even if they had 5 or 6 children back in the day, 2019 is NOT 1980. The dollar has been that much more devalued, inflation has done its thing, and certain things like college and health care have skyrocketed over the past 30 years.

Someone has to make more Catholics, altar boys, future priests and religious, etc. And that is hard, long, expensive work. Much harder than simply cutting a $2,000 check every month for the collection, I dare say!
You've just described the local head of the Latin Mass Society where I live.
I read the workers in the vineyard parable and wonder.   :farmer:
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Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2019, 11:26:07 AM »
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Does it make a difference to validity whether there is.
1.  Almost no sex (let's assume on his birthday once per year she gifts him sex as a "present").
If the wife doesn't intend to have children, then there would be no marriage.  Even if she intends to have children, in this case she is sinning againt her vow, repeatedly, monthly, yearly, every single time the husband reasonably requests relations.

How one judges the intent to have children?  I have no idea.  The Church probably rules this is a valid marriage but the wife is a habitual/continual vow-violator.


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2.  No sex after the honeymoon.  If other words some at the very beginning and then none, like for example she tried sex didn't like it and was completely turned off the idea (I know of this exact example and they are both Trads living in Spain).
There is still the obligation to have children, which if not attempted violates the vow.  Does this nullify the marriage?  I have no idea, but I would think that it could be annulled if it is proven that the wife is done "trying", especially after only a short time in the attempt.  As above, even if it is valid, she is a repeated/continual vow-violator and is in grave sin.


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3.  Either of the above but in those 10 years she had 1 child and that is now "enough".
What ASPECT invalidates the marriage?  If it is just intention then it is present in all of the above examples.
Valid marriage but the wife lives in a constant state of sin for her lack of providing the marriage debt and (probable) intention to avoid children (without husband's agreement).
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Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2019, 11:28:12 AM »

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Sure, he is sinning, but they are validly married; at least on the basis of intention to procreate.  Would you agree?

Yes, valid marriage.
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Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: Sexless marriages and very small families
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2019, 11:53:49 AM »
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I have mentioned before the classic meme of the Baby Boomer who is a huge volunteer but has a small family.  I say: those people BETTER volunteer and get out their checkbooks; it's the least they can do to show God their good will....Someone has to make more Catholics, altar boys, future priests and religious, etc. And that is hard, long, expensive work. Much harder than simply cutting a $2,000 check every month for the collection, I dare say!
Absolutely agree.  Since you're married, your vocation is to help the Church.  If you didn't have as many children as you could've, then you have more time to help the Church directly (instead of indirectly, through children).  Everyone has to make amends for their past sins.  You either do that here or in purgatory. 
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Once you marry and find you have made a mistake you are in for a world of hurt.  So how does one avoid mistakes?
This is related to the above.  You have to view marriage as a calling, as a vocation as a true path from God, ESPECIALLY when it comes to who you choose to marry.  My gut tells me that most who marry have a marriage vocation but some marry the wrong person (or not the best person) because they are too impatient and don't let God guide their life sufficiently.  Since we have free will, God allows us to choose our partner but if we let Him decide, it will be the best decision.  I SUPREMELY doubt that one would have these type of problems if they allowed God to choose their spouse.  More than likely, such situations arise because people used worldly wisdom to choose a spouse instead of Divine wisdom, prayer and penance.  God can see the future; we cannot.
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