[backpacker]

Hi all, I'm new here.  Not sure if this is the right subforum.

I need advise about separation from "bed and board."  When spouses still live together but are in a way "separated."  

My wife and I go to the SSPX and have been married for a few years, no children.  We've been to two different SSPX priests for marriage counseling before, each time I asked for it.  Each time it was brief with a few admonitions, but no follow up or going in depth.  I felt we needed ongoing counseling (ie more than once) but had a hard time getting the priest to reschedule or follow up with how we were doing.

So I sought the advise of a secular counselor on my own, trying to be as fair as possible about our marriage.  The counselor recommended we divorce.  Since then we have not gotten over our main problems.  Since we got married there is almost no conjugal life.  She rarely talks about children or building a future family together, but I have over and over.  We have minor fights (like about a bill, or spilled milk or something) and most of the time she refuses to talk or argue it through. She shuts down. There are other serious issues.

I love her very much and keep hope, but for my own sanity and spiritual life I think I may need to separate from her in some way.  It would not work right now to live in different places.  

Does anybody know the guidelines for separating from "bed and board"?  Do I need my pastor's permission?  I'm finding nothing about how to go about this, but this seems like a better solution than complete separation or worse divorce.  Any feedback would be much appreciated.

Thanks.  God bless.

[Nadir]

Welcome, backpacker.

Separating from "bed and board"?  Sounds like sleeping and eating separately but in the same house, is that correct?

So many questions here:
What was your wife's response to the SSPX counselling?
What is the state of her health?
Is there a physical reason for lack of a conjugal life?
How long are you married?
How is your wife's faith?
Other serious issues?

There have been other threads here with similar problems. Do a CathInfo search for mrriage problems.
Maybe somebody here can give a link to the most relevant.

It seems like you are doing your best, but on your own, without cooperation from your wife and not much support from SSPX priests that you visited. Why not go back alone to both of them and pick their brains?

Surely there is something between a fully secular cousellor who only advises divorce and two SSPX priests neither of whom has helped you (it seems).

[backpacker]

Welcome, backpacker.

Separating from "bed and board"?  Sounds like sleeping and eating separately but in the same house, is that correct?

So many questions here:
What was your wife's response to the SSPX counselling?
What is the state of her health?
Is there a physical reason for lack of a conjugal life?
How long are you married?
How is your wife's faith?
Other serious issues?

There have been other threads here with similar problems. Do a CathInfo search for mrriage problems.
Maybe somebody here can give a link to the most relevant.

It seems like you are doing your best, but on your own, without cooperation from your wife and not much support from SSPX priests that you visited. Why not go back alone to both of them and pick their brains?

Surely there is something between a fully secular cousellor who only advises divorce and two SSPX priests neither of whom has helped you (it seems).

Thanks Nadir for your help.

At first my wife would not go to the SSPX counseling, but the second time with the first priest she did go and listened.  She seemed to be somewhat easier to get along with for a little while, but the main problems never resolved.

She is in okay health, physically/mentally. (me too)

There is no "major" physical reason for lack of conjugal life, at least the act itself.

We've been married a few years (I better avoid details)

My wife is a practicing traditional Catholic.  She prays daily, and reads Catholic books.  But I can't speak here to her character as a Catholic.  

Its hard to go into details online.  But the main issues I have are: she has shown little or no interest in sex, children, or starting a family, she has said several times we shouldn't have children, she spends a lot of time with a network of friends many who are not good Catholic people, and when I try and discuss or argue even small things she gives me the silent treatment.  If I press her to discuss or argue she says she refuses or starts with insults or twisting my words.

My other options:  find another traditional priest for help (Society, independent, Fraternity), or lay Catholic counselor.  

We've been going through this cycle a few times a year since marrying.  Major problems keep coming up, failed discussions turned into bad arguments, and then me considering backing off from her in some way.  

[backpacker]

.

[backpacker]

Has anyone ever heard of this kind of trial separation?  Where you don't sleep together, live somewhat separately for a while.  My understanding has been its something priests have traditionally advised for some couples.

[backpacker]

.

[Nadir]

Thank you for answering my questions, Backpacker, as much as is possible.

My wife is a practicing traditional Catholic.  She prays daily, and reads Catholic books.  But I can't speak here to her character as a Catholic.....  she spends a lot of time with a network of friends many who are not good Catholic people

Can you get her to read anything on marriage? There are some books recommended on this thread: http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Unhappy-Marriage

It sounds like she is no traditional Catholic at all, merely "fulfilling her duty" to go to Mass at a convenient place. That network of friends is a danger, and a distraction from her duty to you as your wife. She is taking comfort and filling her aloneness with false consolations.

she has said several times we shouldn't have children.

Was this revealed to you before marriage? You would need to find out if your marriage is invalidated by this unwillingness to bear children.

She needs a lot of prayer, as you do. I wil be praying for your intentions.

[backpacker]

Thank you for answering my questions, Backpacker, as much as is possible.

My wife is a practicing traditional Catholic.  She prays daily, and reads Catholic books.  But I can't speak here to her character as a Catholic.....  she spends a lot of time with a network of friends many who are not good Catholic people

Can you get her to read anything on marriage? There are some books recommended on this thread: http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Unhappy-Marriage

It sounds like she is no traditional Catholic at all, merely "fulfilling her duty" to go to Mass at a convenient place. That network of friends is a danger, and a distraction from her duty to you as your wife. She is taking comfort and filling her aloneness with false consolations.

she has said several times we shouldn't have children.

Was this revealed to you before marriage? You would need to find out if your marriage is invalidated by this unwillingness to bear children.

She needs a lot of prayer, as you do. I wil be praying for your intentions.

Thanks much for the link to the books, and for your prayers.

I think she would be unlikely to read a book on marriage right now.  She does enjoy youtube talks by SSPX priests though.  We need a good priest who will commit to talking to us on an ongoing basis.  Since we are both trads who go to the SSPX, and due to the issues I mentioned trying to get help from our pastor, it feels like I am "between a rock and a hard place."  

So here I am almost ridiculously sharing, as anonymous as I can, the inner troubles of my marriage.   :shocked:

Her lifestyle of how she daily/weekly networks with her friends (in contrast to often acting neutral if not cold towards life with me) is one of the most subversive aspects.  For as long as I can remember, she spends a lot of every evening on Facebook or texting/calling her friends.

Most of these friends (about 5 main ones) are in irregular marriages, and most without kids.  They or their husband are on their second or third marriages.  I have almost no memory of them talking about me and my wife building a life together or having children.

Before marriage, she did make a few comments saying she had mixed feelings having kids at her age, and having a large family unless we were well off.  Shortly after getting married, it was 99% me initiating sex, talk of kids.  The first years she did say, in anger, she doubted we should have kids.  She's said this several times, including the other day.  Its hard to estanblish in my mind though that she lacked proper consent to marriage on the day of our marriage in a way that would invalidate our marriage.  This is something I briefly breached with our pastor, but he basically said our problems "are not serious, you are just experiencing normal problems."

Its very confusing.  Half the time you'd think there's nothing seriously wrong observing us.  But it seems like people from our chapel, including our priest, her friends, acquaintances are oblivious to the problems.  That or they don't care enough to inquire.

I just don't see how I can continue to live like our marriage is normal and okay. And I can't see getting divorced (civilly ie) or completely separating.  So I may have to follow my own counsel how to live somewhat separately from her, and find more counsel/support.  That and a stiff drink when I get home from work.  :)

[Nadir]

Backpacker, usually topics of this nature are placed in the anonymous threads, not merely for your benefit, but so that others may post more freely (anonymusly) though they have the choice to "sign"if they wish. That might be why nobody else has responded. Maybe you could ask Mathew to move the thread to Anonymous.

The other thing is that I will send you a message but you won't be able to accessit immediately being new here. The wait is only a few days, I understand , until you can access messages.

[backpacker]

I'll check the pm when its available. Thx.  Not able yet to pm Matthew.  

Matthew, could you move this thread to the Anonymous subforum?

[Nadir]

It looks like you might not need to ask Matthew because someone has already posted in Anonymous for you. Did you miss this?
http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/For-Backpacker
That might take off.

[backpacker]

It looks like you might not need to ask Matthew because someone has already posted in Anonymous for you. Did you miss this?
http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/For-Backpacker
That might take off.

saw it. thx. goin there now...

[poche]

I think better counseling should be sought. I would recommend someone who shares our Catholic values.
In the meantime I will pray for you.
 

[Peter15and1]

1917 Code of Canon Law:

Canon 1128 - The married couple is obliged to live together in conjugal relations, unless just cause frees them from this obligation.

Canon 1129 - For reason of adultery of one party, the other has the right to solve even for all times the community of life, though the marriage bond remains, unless the other consented to the crime, or was the cause of it, or expressly, or tacitly, condoned it, or, finally, committed the same crime himself, or herself.  Tacit condoning of the crime consists in this that the innocent party, after having become certain of the crime, nevertheless continues to live with the other in marital relations such the law presumes to be the case, unless the innocent part within six months either expel or leave the guilty partner, or bring legal accusation against him, or her.

Canon 1130 - The married person who, either upon sentence of the judge, or by his or her own authority lawfully leaves the guilty party, has no longer obligation to again admit the adulterer to conjugal life; the innocent part, however, has the right to admit the guilty partner, and to oblige him, or her, to return, unless he or she has in the meantime, with the consent of the innocent part, embraced a state of life contrary to marriage.

Canon 1131 - Other reasons for separation:  if one party joins a non-Catholic sect; or educates the offspring as non-Catholics; or leads a criminal and despicable life; or creates great bodily or spiritual danger to the other party; or if through cruelties he or she makes living together too difficult, and other such reasons, which are to the innocent party so many legal causes to leave the guilty party by authority of the Ordinary of the diocese, or also by private authority, if the guilt of the other party is certain beyond doubt, and there is danger in delay.  In all cases the common life must be restored when the reason for the separation ceases; if, however, the separation was pronounced by the bishop either for a time, of indefinitely, the innocent party is not obliged to return except when the time specified has elapsed or the bishop gives orders to return.

Canon 1132 - After the separation, the children are to be placed in charge of the innocent party, and if one of the parties is a non-Catholic the Catholic party is to have charge over them, that they may be raised as Catholics, unless the Ordinary decides differently for the sake of the welfare of the children, always safeguarding their Catholic education.

[poche]

This is what Pope Francis said about separation in Amoris Laetitia;

 241.
In some cases, respect for one’s own dignity and the good of the children requires not giving in to excessive demands or preventing a grave injustice, violence or chronic ill-treatment. In such cases, “separation becomes inevitable. At times it even becomes morally necessary, precisely when it is a matter of removing the more vulnerable spouse or young children from serious injury due to abuse and violence, from humiliation and exploitation, and from disregard and indifference”.257 Even so, “separation must be considered as a last resort, after all other reasonable attempts at reconciliation have proved vain”.258
257