Author Topic: Selling Out? (Read 20764 times)

bernadette · « **Reply #90 on:** March 31, 2012, 10:35:24 PM »

Quote from: Seraphim

Quote from: bernadette
Quote from: Seraphim
Quote from: bernadette
Quote from: Seraphim
Quote from: bernadette
Quote from: s2srea
Also, to the comment of trad women looking modest yet still being able to be stylish- I would ask then: Is this then a case of style? Apparently so. And if it is, why is this priest, if he is speaking to the same thing, so concerned with style? If people haven't figured it out, there is something about being a traditional Catholic which is innately 'counter-would'. If some of that bleeds out into the 'style' of clothing one wears, what's wrong with that?

Never before in the history of the Church have Catholic women not dressed in the mode of the day...the "style" of the day if you will...now, suddenly, Catholic women have to dress like they belong on the set of "Little house on the Prairie"? No, that is ridiculous...no wonder people think that the SSPX'ers are cult members...believe you me, I've heard it said by outsiders.....that isn't the type of criticism a traditional Catholic needs. Since when has being a Catholic meant that we have to dive off the deep end into prudish, stern, sour-faced early American Protestantism?

Great Catholic women have always dressed beautifully...I will give Queen Isabella of Spain as an example:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LEZVADmDZ1U/Tlr4vNI_pfI/AAAAAAAAB3g/c2PEoteBkPU/s1600/Isabella+II+of+Spain+1865.jpg

Beautiful, elegant and stylish for the day...here is a modern photo:
http://static.photaki.com/spanish-mantilla-clad-women-and-scapular_427860.jpg

How beautiful...it sure beats this:
http://nowscape.com/mormon/images/polyg_women_TX.jpg

Catholic's have always set the style for society...and the moral standards along with it.

This has to be one of the dumber posts ever to appear on this forum.

Point out what is dumb so I can think about it...will you?

That a Catholic would have any concern whatever for modern fashions.

If you are perturbed that Catholic women can't show their boobs and thighs, too bad for you.

Our Lady warned us that these immoral fashions would come.

Yet it never occurs to you that the reason trads are "stuck in the 1950's" with their attire is because that is as close to the modern times as you can get without violating Catholic norms of modesty and femininity.

Oh please...give me a break. You know when I first came to tradition, I was as asinine as you in my thinking. I've since gain my senses and my logic, escaped from the tendency towards cultish behavior and consipracy theories, realized that fashion/style is not the same as modesty. Women can look stylish and fashionable, wear make-up and nail polish..and still be modest, so your narrow mindedness falls flat on its face.

Trads shouldn't be "stuck" in any era, the fifties included...move on already...this is 2012 the year of Our Lord...let's deal with regaining the traditions of the Church not the fashion traditions of the biblical era.

I'm sorry...but there are few women who go to church dressed immorally...tacky, yes, immoral, no...

Here is one of the replies from the article on RC...it sums things up real well:
"If you make yourselves like a bunch of outcasts, reasonable people will cast you out. Make sure that when you are persecuted, it is for some critical point of faith or morals and not for looking like you just walked out of a time machine."

Regarding your last quoted sentence:

Ah yes.

I seem to remember another who shared this philosophy of fitting in to mainstream American society.

A cardinal from Baltimore in the 1830's, I believe.

I believe the heresy of Americanism he began was responded to and condemned in Testem Benevolentiae by Pope Leo XIII.

Those silly Catholic priests wearing cassocks!

Why, they need to blend in like good Americans and get a clerical suit!

Or in your case, some "modest" jeans.

Perhaps the men in my parish should go out and start wearing "modest" bras.

"To make the picture even more chaotic, in several of these acceptations, Americanism is wrongly confused with the heresy of Americanism condemned by Pope Leo XIII, which actually has a completely different meaning."
http://www.traditioninaction.org/History/F_001_RCR_ASG.html

Are you just shooting off at the mouth about something that you only half understand?

I am saying that many posting here seem incapable of differentiating between modesty and beauty/style in dress of women. What is so hard to understand about that?

And by the way...I am the number one proponent of cassocks...I don't like the clerical suit at all...but you have judged me and tormented me this evening along with several others...and all during the holiest time of the year...no wonder so many people are disillusioned with traditional Catholics....even I am becoming disgusted.

bernadette · « **Reply #91 on:** March 31, 2012, 10:46:54 PM »

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

I should also add that any woman who entered Padre Pio's confessional who's skirt was NOT below the knees was dismissed. Enough said.

I know that....I also know that there are plenty of women in the sspx that enter the confessional who's skirts are NOT well below the knees, and the priests hear their confessions...enough said.

bernadette · « **Reply #92 on:** March 31, 2012, 10:52:14 PM »

Quote from: Seraphim

Quote from: clare
Quote from: Seraphim
Quote from: bernadette
Point out what is dumb so I can think about it...will you?

That a Catholic would have any concern whatever for modern fashions.

Quote
The best way to judge the appropriateness of clothing is by custom; follow it without fail. Because the human spirit is prone to change and the things that pleased us yesterday no longer do so today, there have been invented, and are still being invented every day, all sorts of different ways of dressing to satisfy this changing spirit. Those who would want to dress as people did 30 years ago would make themselves look ridiculous and eccentric. It is, however, characteristic of the conduct of people of good judgment, never to attract attention to themselves in any way.

- St John Baptist de La Salle, page 49, The Rules of Christian Decorum and Civility

Within reason, of course!

A veiled attempt at justification.

Please cite from the same work where this sainted man advocated women donning manly attire.

Or again, please demonstrate how he overrules the warning about immoral fashions by Our Lady of Fatima.

If not, I should be able to dress like a slob, and it would not be unfit, because it is the prevailing custom in this country.

You have perverted the writings and intention os a saint.

Be careful with that.

A long time ago...when I first started posting on IA...I used to battle with Clare on this topic...I have since come to agree with her. It is not a veiled attempt at justification...and I agree with her statement "within reason of course!".

bernadette · « **Reply #93 on:** March 31, 2012, 10:56:40 PM »

Quote from: Jitpring

Quote from: bernadette

Catholics sort of have to...fit in that is.

You seem to be unaware of, or have forgotten about, the chasm separating the elect from those of the world.

Okay Jitpring...so you are among the elect. I see, very well then. That is one area that I could never feel certain about...in fact, most likely, I am not one of the elect, though I certainly strive to be...

angelamarie2012 · « **Reply #94 on:** March 31, 2012, 11:43:14 PM »

all i know, is I don't want my nieces or kids dressing like the way I did in the past, you can dress modest and look like you are from 2012, as women we shouldn't cause men to lust over us unless they're our husbands, plus we don't want to influence or support other women dressing provocatively through our attire, if you wouldn't wear it to church because it is too revealing then maybe we shouldn't wear it at all, buttttt in the suimmertime i don't see nothing wrong with arms out...we are the temptresses so we must beware of our clothes because as God's daughters we don't want to create unnecessary lust...don't get me wrong I used to want men to lust over me and dressed accordingly to achieve such attention..but now the only man I want to please is Jesus and one day my man

bernadette · « **Reply #95 on:** March 31, 2012, 11:49:22 PM »

Quote from: angelamarie2012

all i know, is I don't want my nieces or kids dressing like the way I did in the past, you can dress modest and look like you are from 2012, as women we shouldn't cause men to lust over us unless they're our husbands, plus we don't want to influence or support other women dressing provocatively through our attire, if you wouldn't wear it to church because it is too revealing then maybe we shouldn't wear it at all, buttttt in the suimmertime i don't see nothing wrong with arms out...we are the temptresses so we must beware of our clothes because as God's daughters we don't want to create unnecessary lust...don't get me wrong I used to want men to lust over me and dressed accordingly to achieve such attention..but now the only man I want to please is Jesus and one day my man

I hope one day you are as lucky as I have been and find that good and noble husband..a good man, not like one of these nincompoops on the forum.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #96 on:** March 31, 2012, 11:59:33 PM »

Quote from: angelamarie2012

all i know, is I don't want my nieces or kids dressing like the way I did in the past, you can dress modest and look like you are from 2012, as women we shouldn't cause men to lust over us unless they're our husbands, plus we don't want to influence or support other women dressing provocatively through our attire, if you wouldn't wear it to church because it is too revealing then maybe we shouldn't wear it at all, buttttt in the suimmertime i don't see nothing wrong with arms out...we are the temptresses so we must beware of our clothes because as God's daughters we don't want to create unnecessary lust...don't get me wrong I used to want men to lust over me and dressed accordingly to achieve such attention..but now the only man I want to please is Jesus and one day my man

Angela, I found this comment you made fascinating:

Quote

wow, Myrna I think you're the answer I've been searching for, I was Baptized , communed, and confirmed in nouvos ordo and as I grew I realized I was one foot with the devil and one foot with God and wondered why muslim girls around me were so disciplined while I was wild, was my faith not strong enough? I see wthat I wasn't taught right, I was mislead, I recently began dating a sede who introduced me to trad mass and further more to the idea that the seat is vacant, I can see truths in this and I admire your boldness and wisdom for you have witnessed the changes from the get whereas my father has been brushed under the rug like the others, how can I open his eyes and continue opening mine?

Spouse of Jesus often makes the same comment. Why is it that there is such a problem among Christians and Catholics, even in some of the most conservative and traditional groups? There's something very wrong, I don't believe differences in beliefs cause this, I think we can find the answer in that the Muslims have retained true patriarchy much longer.

Caraffa · « **Reply #97 on:** April 01, 2012, 12:30:44 AM »

Quote from: Augstine Baker

Quote from: Caraffa

Yeah, he's been reading too much Schleiermacher.

The Neo-Trads use almost the exact same tactics and same sayings that the Neo-Modernists and other Liberal Catholics used to bring down the church. See the Quiet Revolution in Quebec, specifically the change in religious mentalities that lead to it.

You woulnd't perhaps have any references, would you?

I assume that you mean the Quiet revolution in Quebec and not Schleiermarcher.

A book on this which covers that the changes that were happening in Quebecois Catholic settings before the 1960's is The Catholic Origins of Quebec's Quiet Revolution, 1931-1970 by Michael Gauvreau, MQUP, 2005. Gauvreau focuses on Catholic Action groups and how, while some of them may have started with noble goals from a Traditional Catholic point of view, they fell under the influence of existentialist personalism, even radical versions of personalism.

I haven't read the whole thing, but of what I have, a few things stuck out at similar to those used by Neo-Trads and their sympathizers. Here are some excerpts:

pg. 31:

The Hertel spoken about here is François Hertel who's real name was Fr. Rudolph Dube, SJ. He was eventually expelled from the Society of Jesus, left the priesthood, and ended up in agnosticism I believe. He was also close friends with the liberal of French-Canadian liberals, Pierre Trudeau. Hertel's error as when can see from above is similar to that of the Americanists.

Also pg. 31:

pg. 322:

A few other notes:
1. The personalist-revolutionaries pushed a vague notion of "love."
2. Promoted a TOB-like view of sex.
3. Accused those who disagreed with them (the hardliners aka and traditionalist-conservatives) of being too puritanical, medieval, or jansenist, etc.
4. Wanted to de-emphasize Catholic teachings on sin and its seriousness.

clare · « **Reply #98 on:** April 01, 2012, 03:28:09 AM »

Quote from: Seraphim

Quote from: clare
Quote from: Seraphim
Quote from: bernadette
Point out what is dumb so I can think about it...will you?

That a Catholic would have any concern whatever for modern fashions.

Quote
The best way to judge the appropriateness of clothing is by custom; follow it without fail. Because the human spirit is prone to change and the things that pleased us yesterday no longer do so today, there have been invented, and are still being invented every day, all sorts of different ways of dressing to satisfy this changing spirit. Those who would want to dress as people did 30 years ago would make themselves look ridiculous and eccentric. It is, however, characteristic of the conduct of people of good judgment, never to attract attention to themselves in any way.

- St John Baptist de La Salle, page 49, The Rules of Christian Decorum and Civility

Within reason, of course!

A veiled attempt at justification.

Not at all. I was answering the idea that a Catholic would have no concern whatever for modern fashions.

Quote

You have perverted the writings and intention os a saint.

No I have done no such thing. I quoted him, against the suggestion that modern fashion is of no interest to Catholics.

I was not justifying immodesty. Not all modern fashions are immodest. If a Catholic can dress fashionably while remaining modest, (or modestly while remaining fashionable) that is good. But when Catholics think that the only alternative to immodesty is dressing like people did decades ago, they are mistaken.

I write as someone who dresses modestly, but not especially fashionably! I've never had much style. :dancing:

wallflower · « **Reply #99 on:** April 01, 2012, 04:38:49 AM »

Quote from: clare

I was not justifying immodesty. Not all modern fashions are immodest. If a Catholic can dress fashionably while remaining modest, (or modestly while remaining fashionable) that is good. But when Catholics think that the only alternative to immodesty is dressing like people did decades ago, they are mistaken.

Is anyone really disputing that though?

bernadette keeps going on about people saying trad Catholic women can't be beautiful in dress but I haven't seen any posts advocating ugliness. Perhaps if she readjusted her mentality and focused less on exaggerating how "bad" it is in trad chapels she would be able to see that more clearly. That along with the realization that beauty has some level of subjectivity, so not everyone will agree with what she thinks is beautiful or tasteful, would help this move along a little better.

So not everyone has the best fashion sense or ability to put clothes together well, that's an art. It really is. And lack of that talent or ability is a problem common to all, trads or not, Catholic or not. To act as though ugliness is the goal, when in fact it's a disagreement on what constitutes beauty and modesty is not exactly honest debating.

SeanJohnson · « **Reply #100 on:** April 01, 2012, 05:59:19 AM »

You are a vain woman.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #101 on:** April 01, 2012, 10:44:39 AM »

Quote from: bernadette

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
I should also add that any woman who entered Padre Pio's confessional who's skirt was NOT below the knees was dismissed. Enough said.

I know that....I also know that there are plenty of women in the sspx that enter the confessional who's skirts are NOT well below the knees, and the priests hear their confessions...enough said.

What's gotten into you, bernadette? You didn't act like this when you first came back. Now you're acting like a smart-aleck even to those who were previously kind to you.

bernadette · « **Reply #102 on:** April 01, 2012, 10:48:09 AM »

Quote from: Seraphim

You are a vain woman.

Have a very holy Passion Sunday...

bernadette · « **Reply #103 on:** April 01, 2012, 10:50:00 AM »

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

Quote from: bernadette
Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
I should also add that any woman who entered Padre Pio's confessional who's skirt was NOT below the knees was dismissed. Enough said.

I know that....I also know that there are plenty of women in the sspx that enter the confessional who's skirts are NOT well below the knees, and the priests hear their confessions...enough said.

What's gotten into you, bernadette? You didn't act like this when you first came back. Now you're acting like a smart-aleck even to those who were previously kind to you.

I'm sorry...I didn't like being tormented and attacked all because I have an opinion that isn't dreary. I like you SS.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #104 on:** April 01, 2012, 10:54:32 AM »

Tis fine, Bernadette. Have a blessed Sunday.