Author Topic: Selling Out? (Read 19997 times)

Graham · « **Reply #30 on:** March 31, 2012, 12:11:35 PM »

Quote from: bernadette

Quote from: s2srea
Also, to the comment of trad women looking modest yet still being able to be stylish- I would ask then: Is this then a case of style? Apparently so. And if it is, why is this priest, if he is speaking to the same thing, so concerned with style? If people haven't figured it out, there is something about being a traditional Catholic which is innately 'counter-would'. If some of that bleeds out into the 'style' of clothing one wears, what's wrong with that?

Never before in the history of the Church have Catholic women not dressed in the mode of the day... the "style" of the day if you will

You're probably wrong. I would be very surprised if early Christian women in Rome were not required to dress more simply and modestly than the pagan women around them, who probably thought them quite frumpy and prudish, at least till they converted. The fact that some of the earliest Church fathers, along with St. Paul himself, spent time and even wrote books exhorting their flocks to avoid vain fashions is powerful evidence for this; for why would they have gone to such effort unless to make Catholics dress differently from the mode of the day? They wouldn't have.

What I can say for certain is that never before have tight jeans, spandex yoga pants, short shorts, and so on been the mode for women under 30. I do not say that you want Catholic women to dress this way, but the logic of your argument ("dress in the mode of the day") takes us there inevitably. So we either go the whole hog and admit that immodesty can be modest, a la FE, or we admit that there are other principles involved, and which can require that we dress differently from the world.

How do you Christianize tight jeans and short shorts? You can't. You don't even try.

Quote

...now, suddenly, Catholic women have to dress like they belong on the set of "Little house on the Prairie"? No, that is ridiculous...no wonder people think that the SSPX'ers are cult members...believe you me, I've heard it said by outsiders.....that isn't the type of criticism a traditional Catholic needs. Since when has being a Catholic meant that we have to dive off the deep end into prudish, stern, sour-faced early American Protestantism?

This doesn't connect with anything I've ever experienced in the SSPX, and it reads like a tantrum.

Interestingly, I saw that third photo or yours posted on FE about a month ago, in yet another post mocking at some bogeyman of prudish, sour-faced protestantism within the SSPX. Like that is how SSPX men want you to look. :rolleyes:

The fact that clothing and fashion are such personal issues for women is why men need to set rules about them. It is a perennial battle to keep women dressed modestly; the ancients at least recognized that vanity is a feminine vice. But I think you will find that we don't want you to look frumpy, either.

bernadette · « **Reply #31 on:** March 31, 2012, 12:25:44 PM »

Quote from: Seraphim

Quote from: bernadette
Quote from: Seraphim
Quote from: bernadette
Quote from: s2srea
Also, to the comment of trad women looking modest yet still being able to be stylish- I would ask then: Is this then a case of style? Apparently so. And if it is, why is this priest, if he is speaking to the same thing, so concerned with style? If people haven't figured it out, there is something about being a traditional Catholic which is innately 'counter-would'. If some of that bleeds out into the 'style' of clothing one wears, what's wrong with that?

Never before in the history of the Church have Catholic women not dressed in the mode of the day...the "style" of the day if you will...now, suddenly, Catholic women have to dress like they belong on the set of "Little house on the Prairie"? No, that is ridiculous...no wonder people think that the SSPX'ers are cult members...believe you me, I've heard it said by outsiders.....that isn't the type of criticism a traditional Catholic needs. Since when has being a Catholic meant that we have to dive off the deep end into prudish, stern, sour-faced early American Protestantism?

Great Catholic women have always dressed beautifully...I will give Queen Isabella of Spain as an example:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LEZVADmDZ1U/Tlr4vNI_pfI/AAAAAAAAB3g/c2PEoteBkPU/s1600/Isabella+II+of+Spain+1865.jpg

Beautiful, elegant and stylish for the day...here is a modern photo:
http://static.photaki.com/spanish-mantilla-clad-women-and-scapular_427860.jpg

How beautiful...it sure beats this:
http://nowscape.com/mormon/images/polyg_women_TX.jpg

Catholic's have always set the style for society...and the moral standards along with it.

This has to be one of the dumber posts ever to appear on this forum.

Point out what is dumb so I can think about it...will you?

That a Catholic would have any concern whatever for modern fashions.

If you are perturbed that Catholic women can't show their boobs and thighs, too bad for you.

Our Lady warned us that these immoral fashions would come.

Yet it never occurs to you that the reason trads are "stuck in the 1950's" with their attire is because that is as close to the modern times as you can get without violating Catholic norms of modesty and femininity.

Oh please...give me a break. You know when I first came to tradition, I was as asinine as you in my thinking. I've since gain my senses and my logic, escaped from the tendency towards cultish behavior and consipracy theories, realized that fashion/style is not the same as modesty. Women can look stylish and fashionable, wear make-up and nail polish..and still be modest, so your narrow mindedness falls flat on its face.

Trads shouldn't be "stuck" in any era, the fifties included...move on already...this is 2012 the year of Our Lord...let's deal with regaining the traditions of the Church not the fashion traditions of the biblical era.

I'm sorry...but there are few women who go to church dressed immorally...tacky, yes, immoral, no...

Here is one of the replies from the article on RC...it sums things up real well:
"If you make yourselves like a bunch of outcasts, reasonable people will cast you out. Make sure that when you are persecuted, it is for some critical point of faith or morals and not for looking like you just walked out of a time machine."

bernadette · « **Reply #32 on:** March 31, 2012, 12:31:55 PM »

Quote from: Graham

Quote from: bernadette
Quote from: s2srea
Also, to the comment of trad women looking modest yet still being able to be stylish- I would ask then: Is this then a case of style? Apparently so. And if it is, why is this priest, if he is speaking to the same thing, so concerned with style? If people haven't figured it out, there is something about being a traditional Catholic which is innately 'counter-would'. If some of that bleeds out into the 'style' of clothing one wears, what's wrong with that?

Never before in the history of the Church have Catholic women not dressed in the mode of the day... the "style" of the day if you will

You're probably wrong. I would be very surprised if early Christian women in Rome were not required to dress more simply and modestly than the pagan women around them, who probably thought them quite frumpy and prudish, at least till they converted. The fact that some of the earliest Church fathers, along with St. Paul himself, spent time and even wrote books exhorting their flocks to avoid vain fashions is powerful evidence for this; for why would they have gone to such effort unless to make Catholics dress differently from the mode of the day? They wouldn't have.

What I can say for certain is that never before have tight jeans, spandex yoga pants, short shorts, and so on been the mode for women under 30. I do not say that you want Catholic women to dress this way, but the logic of your argument ("dress in the mode of the day") takes us there inevitably. So we either go the whole hog and admit that immodesty can be modest, a la FE, or we admit that there are other principles involved, and which can require that we dress differently from the world.

How do you Christianize tight jeans and short shorts? You can't. You don't even try.

Quote
...now, suddenly, Catholic women have to dress like they belong on the set of "Little house on the Prairie"? No, that is ridiculous...no wonder people think that the SSPX'ers are cult members...believe you me, I've heard it said by outsiders.....that isn't the type of criticism a traditional Catholic needs. Since when has being a Catholic meant that we have to dive off the deep end into prudish, stern, sour-faced early American Protestantism?

This doesn't connect with anything I've ever experienced in the SSPX, and it reads like a tantrum.

Interestingly, I saw that third photo or yours posted on FE about a month ago, in yet another post mocking at some bogeyman of prudish, sour-faced protestantism within the SSPX. Like that is how SSPX men want you to look. :rolleyes:

The fact that clothing and fashion are such personal issues for women is why men need to set rules about them. It is a perennial battle to keep women dressed modestly; the ancients at least recognized that vanity is a feminine vice. But I think you will find that we don't want you to look frumpy, either.

I was talking...not having a tantrum. You have one thing very wrong...men don't and shouldn't set the rules of what women wear...women set the rules, and they know how to guide their husbands on dressing well and properly...men need to stay out of the fashion industry as well as out of the closets of their wives...it is the wifes realm...no wonder the world has sunk so low in the fashion sense...most of the designers are gαy men.

With your saying this:

"The fact that clothing and fashion are such personal issues for women is why men need to set rules about them. It is a perennial battle to keep women dressed modestly; the ancients at least recognized that vanity is a feminine vice."

alarm bells go off...sounds very much like something a cult leader would say.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #33 on:** March 31, 2012, 12:53:05 PM »

Quote

You have one thing very wrong...men don't and shouldn't set the rules of what women wear...women set the rules, and they know how to guide their husbands on dressing well and properly...men need to stay out of the fashion industry as well as out of the closets of their wives

Whoa Bernadette. "Men need to stay . . . out of the closets of their wives."

What does that sound like?

St. Paul says the woman's body belongs to her husband. I would take it, she should dress in accord with his wishes.

That doesn't mean he can force her to dress in some eccentric costume, or dictate every decision of fashion. It does mean she is to dress according to his wishes, especially with regards to decency, in obedience. As should his daughters.

Such a petty thing for a woman to be concerned about. What does she lose from following her husband's wishes? A husband and father has ample reason to be concerned if his wife and daughters do not dress in accord with his will, because the way the women in his family dress affect his good name.

wallflower · « **Reply #34 on:** March 31, 2012, 01:11:59 PM »

Quote from: s2srea

Why did you use a picture of polygamist mormon's as your example of how trad women dress? Do they dress that way at your Chapel?

No. They don't. :rolleyes: That's a last ditch effort that is based in dishonesty.

bernadette · « **Reply #35 on:** March 31, 2012, 01:18:56 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote
You have one thing very wrong...men don't and shouldn't set the rules of what women wear...women set the rules, and they know how to guide their husbands on dressing well and properly...men need to stay out of the fashion industry as well as out of the closets of their wives

Whoa Bernadette. "Men need to stay . . . out of the closets of their wives."

What does that sound like?

St. Paul says the woman's body belongs to her husband. I would take it, she should dress in accord with his wishes.

That doesn't mean he can force her to dress in some eccentric costume, or dictate every decision of fashion. It does mean she is to dress according to his wishes, especially with regards to decency, in obedience. As should his daughters.

Such a petty thing for a woman to be concerned about. What does she lose from following her husband's wishes? A husband and father has ample reason to be concerned if his wife and daughters do not dress in accord with his will, because the way the women in his family dress affect his good name.

What do men know about fashion? What do men know about how a woman should dress? They don't. The fashion industry today is predominately male. Look at fashion today! Everyone here has been talking about how bad it is! gαy men interfering in an area that is a woman's realm, no wonder!

If a man doesn't want his wife dressing like a tramp...then he shouldn't marry a tramp....but I do agree with how you worded your opinion above...a wife and daughters should dress in accord with the husband/fathers will as far as modesty is concerned, if there is a difference....but really, there shouldn't be that difference to begin with. T

wallflower · « **Reply #36 on:** March 31, 2012, 01:19:52 PM »

Quote from: bernadette

I was talking...not having a tantrum. You have one thing very wrong...men don't and shouldn't set the rules of what women wear...women set the rules, and they know how to guide their husbands on dressing well and properly...men need to stay out of the fashion industry as well as out of the closets of their wives...it is the wifes realm...no wonder the world has sunk so low in the fashion sense...most of the designers are gαy men.

When people say this it always makes me think of those Catholics who would tell the Church to "stay out of the bedroom". It has that same defiant, almost immature ring to it.

Also...so the world HAS sunk so low in fashion sense then? Interesting switch.

Graham · « **Reply #37 on:** March 31, 2012, 01:22:19 PM »

Quote from: bernadette

You have one thing very wrong...men don't and shouldn't set the rules of what women wear...women set the rules, and they know how to guide their husbands on dressing well and properly...

Tell that to the Church fathers, bernadette.

Quote

men need to stay out of the fashion industry as well as out of the closets of their wives...it is the wifes realm...no wonder the world has sunk so low in the fashion sense...most of the designers are gαy men.

These male designers are disordered, and the primary consumers of their vanity products are women.

Somehow, in your mind, it's the fault of gαy men that today's women dress immodestly, and not the fault of those women who, in their vanity, scorn good men's rules about modest clothing.

If my wife shows taste and good moral judgement, I will be more than happy to leave clothing decisions up to her. In fact I would rather not think about such things. If she shows poor judgement, don't doubt I will change that.

bernadette · « **Reply #38 on:** March 31, 2012, 01:25:38 PM »

Quote from: wallflower

Quote from: s2srea

Why did you use a picture of polygamist mormon's as your example of how trad women dress? Do they dress that way at your Chapel?

No. They don't. :rolleyes: That's a last ditch effort that is based in dishonesty.

Are you sure you aren't the one being dishonest, wallflower? I followed up with this statement:

question:
Why did you use a picture of polygamist mormon's as your example of how trad women dress? Do they dress that way at your Chapel?

My answer:
Some do...not as extreme...but the general idea. Sure, it was an extreme photo, but let's not be influenced by such perverted a look.

bernadette · « **Reply #39 on:** March 31, 2012, 01:34:50 PM »

Quote from: Graham

Quote from: bernadette
You have one thing very wrong...men don't and shouldn't set the rules of what women wear...women set the rules, and they know how to guide their husbands on dressing well and properly...

Tell that to the Church fathers, bernadette.

Okay, I will!

Quote
men need to stay out of the fashion industry as well as out of the closets of their wives...it is the wifes realm...no wonder the world has sunk so low in the fashion sense...most of the designers are gαy men.

These male designers are disordered, and the primary consumers of their vanity products are women.

Somehow, in your mind, it's the fault of gαy men that today's women dress immodestly, and not the fault of those women who, in their vanity, scorn good men's rules about modest clothing.

If my wife shows taste and good moral judgement, I will be more than happy to leave clothing decisions up to her. In fact I would rather not think about such things. If she shows poor judgement, don't doubt I will change that.

Why wouldn't your wife show good taste and good moral judgement? You wouldn't of married an immoral woman thinking you could change her, would you? That is about the same logic as a woman who marries an abusive husband thinking she can change HIM.

wallflower · « **Reply #40 on:** March 31, 2012, 01:37:48 PM »

Quote from: bernadette

Quote from: wallflower
Quote from: s2srea

Why did you use a picture of polygamist mormon's as your example of how trad women dress? Do they dress that way at your Chapel?

No. They don't. :rolleyes: That's a last ditch effort that is based in dishonesty.

Are you sure you aren't the one being dishonest, wallflower? I followed up with this statement:

question:
Why did you use a picture of polygamist mormon's as your example of how trad women dress? Do they dress that way at your Chapel?

My answer:
Some do...not as extreme...but the general idea. Sure, it was an extreme photo, but let's not be influenced by such perverted a look.

Then why put it up in the first place? You are wavering in dishonesty, not fully committed to it and clarifying it when confronted, but that doesn't make the act of putting up that picture any less dishonest. If you know it isn't right, don't put it up. I'm sure you would not have volunteered an explanation unless you had been asked so your intent was still dishonest.

bernadette · « **Reply #41 on:** March 31, 2012, 02:02:51 PM »

Quote from: wallflower

Quote from: bernadette
Quote from: wallflower
Quote from: s2srea

Why did you use a picture of polygamist mormon's as your example of how trad women dress? Do they dress that way at your Chapel?

No. They don't. :rolleyes: That's a last ditch effort that is based in dishonesty.

Are you sure you aren't the one being dishonest, wallflower? I followed up with this statement:

question:
Why did you use a picture of polygamist mormon's as your example of how trad women dress? Do they dress that way at your Chapel?

My answer:
Some do...not as extreme...but the general idea. Sure, it was an extreme photo, but let's not be influenced by such perverted a look.

Then why put it up in the first place? You are wavering in dishonesty, not fully committed to it and clarifying it when confronted, but that doesn't make the act of putting up that picture any less dishonest. If you know it isn't right, don't put it up. I'm sure you would not have volunteered an explanation unless you had been asked so your intent was still dishonest.

What are you a saint or something? That you think you know my interior disposition and reasons for doing things? There ARE women who aren't wallflowers you know.

This is what I detest the most about pseudo "trad" Catholics.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #42 on:** March 31, 2012, 02:03:31 PM »

Quote from: bernadette

Why wouldn't your wife show good taste and good moral judgement?

I would hope she would, but she should be attempting to please me with her dress, not please others. Dressing like a Catholic can require deviating from social customs. That's just the reality.

Quote

You wouldn't of married an immoral woman thinking you could change her, would you?

I won't ever do that. Believe me. But women's attitudes can change over time. It's important they understand from the get go that their dress is subject to my approval. I will submit my dress to their approval, within reason.

Quote

That is about the same logic as a woman who marries an abusive husband thinking she can change HIM.

No, I don't think it's related. I have no interest in women who think it's a big deal that I want say over how she dresses.

clare · « **Reply #43 on:** March 31, 2012, 02:18:32 PM »

Quote from: Seraphim

Quote from: bernadette
Point out what is dumb so I can think about it...will you?

That a Catholic would have any concern whatever for modern fashions.

Quote

The best way to judge the appropriateness of clothing is by custom; follow it without fail. Because the human spirit is prone to change and the things that pleased us yesterday no longer do so today, there have been invented, and are still being invented every day, all sorts of different ways of dressing to satisfy this changing spirit. Those who would want to dress as people did 30 years ago would make themselves look ridiculous and eccentric. It is, however, characteristic of the conduct of people of good judgment, never to attract attention to themselves in any way.

- St John Baptist de La Salle, page 49, The Rules of Christian Decorum and Civility

Within reason, of course!

wallflower · « **Reply #44 on:** March 31, 2012, 02:18:51 PM »

Quote from: bernadette

Quote from: wallflower
Quote from: bernadette
Quote from: wallflower
Quote from: s2srea

Why did you use a picture of polygamist mormon's as your example of how trad women dress? Do they dress that way at your Chapel?

No. They don't. :rolleyes: That's a last ditch effort that is based in dishonesty.

Are you sure you aren't the one being dishonest, wallflower? I followed up with this statement:

question:
Why did you use a picture of polygamist mormon's as your example of how trad women dress? Do they dress that way at your Chapel?

My answer:
Some do...not as extreme...but the general idea. Sure, it was an extreme photo, but let's not be influenced by such perverted a look.

Then why put it up in the first place? You are wavering in dishonesty, not fully committed to it and clarifying it when confronted, but that doesn't make the act of putting up that picture any less dishonest. If you know it isn't right, don't put it up. I'm sure you would not have volunteered an explanation unless you had been asked so your intent was still dishonest.

What are you a saint or something? That you think you know my interior disposition and reasons for doing things? There ARE women who aren't wallflowers you know.

This is what I detest the most about pseudo "trad" Catholics.

Then why don't you answer the question as to why you would put it up if you knew it wasn't accurate? Please, do tell us your interior disposition and reason for doing things.