Traditional Catholics have their own cultural norms, this is because the general culture is in stark opposition to Catholic ways.

Yes, I think that is exactly right.  Tele, I like that picture you posted.  I think it does a good job of showing a traditional Christian (as opposed to Protestant) form of dress -- it is modest without being frumpy; the women are sufficiently covered while also maintaining a tasteful appearance.

Here is another one, depicting the national costumes of the Balearic Islands.  I defy anybody to accuse the women of this Mediterranean culture of having dressed "frumpily"; then again, people seem to use that word in a wide variety of ways.  I have a very clear image in my mind of what "frumpy" is (think of the picture of those fundamentalist Mormon women or the "Plain Catholic" website), but I do not find burqas to be frumpy either, only excessive, whereas others have told me that they do find burqas frumpy.  Thus, I conclude that we should agree on a definition on this thread before proceeding further.  Anyway, here is the photo :



I believe that is the Catholic way.

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

No, I think women are better off wearing "out of date" clothing than dressing immodestly.

Muslim women actually do tend to practice modesty.  In that respect their natural virtue puts most Christians to shame.  That so many have refused to go along with liberal secular dress merits great praise.

And they usually wear trousers.

I have lived around Mohammedans before and have been to Mohammedan countries; it seems like, unless they are wearing a burqa, the most popular and common thing to see on Mohammedan women is tight blue jeans and copious facial make-up, particularly around the eyes.  And they dress in such form-fitting clothing despite covering their heads, which I find so silly -- a clear example of the letter killing the spirit of the law.  I have an old friend who once saw a Turkish woman in hijab and jeans passionately kissing some man in a public park in Constantinople.  Apparently, whatever the original point of the hijab was in Mohammedan countries, a large portion have forgotten it.  

That being said, I lived around Mohammedans who immigrated to the US and Turkey is a saecularised country, so maybe these are not good samples, though Clare is in the UK and apparently has witnessed the same thing. Many of the women of the older generations (and some from the younger) dress in flowing robes, however, or full burqas.  These are certainly modest and, amongst the Arabs I saw at Constantinople, sometimes quite elegant and beautiful in their own way.

That being said, I lived around Mohammedans who immigrated to the US and Turkey is a saecularised country

Yes, in my conversations with Turkish women, and they seem a lot more like western women in their manners.

Quote from: Pepsuber

There is no issue with long skirts in and of themselves. A long-sleeve, ankle-length dress in the height of summer could be another matter entirely.

Sorry, but that is arrant nonsense.

Your calling it nonsense doesn't make it so.

There is no requirement for young women to show their ankles and go bare sleaved in a dress to satisfy your desire that they conform to the modern world.

Bare-sleeved? Who said anything about bare arms?

That you try to call it "immodest" takes the cake.

It is immodest for a layperson to call attention to him- or herself by the way he or she dresses. St. Thomas identifies dressing in such a way as a vice. But perhaps you know better than he.

It really is the same thing as liberal priests and nuns mocking traditionalists for wearing traditional habits they consider outmoded.

No, it isn't. First, priests and religious should be easily identifiable by what they wear. Laypeople should not. Second, there is a difference between considering something outmoded and something's actually being outmoded. A cassock isn't outmoded, but dressing like Catharine of Aragon is.

Quote from: Telesphorus

Veils are Muslim?

If a young lady dressed like that in ordinary circuмstances here in the U.S., people would think she is a Muslim.

That's because Americans, as a whole, have almost no sense of culture. When they do, they realize it is inopportune to recognize it in public settings.

If a young lady dressed like that in ordinary circuмstances here in the U.S., people would think she is a Muslim.

But wearing veils is not specifically Muslim, and no one has the right to claim that it is specially Muslim.

You are traducing Catholic traditional dress in favor of liberal secular dress.

You have no right to say a woman is acting like a Muslim wearing a veil, anymore than to say she's acting like a Muslim by being chaste.

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

No, I think women are better off wearing "out of date" clothing than dressing immodestly.

You are creating a false dichotomy. And wearing clothing that is out of date is immodest because it draws attention to oneself.

There's nothing traditional about drawing attention to oneself.

So what is appropriate then?

I agree, Tele. I am just asking "Pepsuber" what he thinks is appropriate. He seems to think dressing with the times is best. The stench of feminism rears its ugly head yet again...

The stench of feminism rears its ugly head yet again...

I agree with you that in most cases the intense hostility to traditional dress in women is motivated primarily by feminism.  But I don't see evidence here that that is the case.  Except for the comparison to Muslims.