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Author Topic: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante  (Read 5830 times)

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Online Catholic Knight

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Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
« Reply #60 on: September 22, 2023, 10:06:56 AM »
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  • But Bellarmine does hold that there's a distinction between the loss of authority and the loss of office, i.e. he was basically a sedeprivationist or sedeimpoundist before the terms were coined.

    No.  The loss of office takes place at the same time the authority is lost.  A declaration only makes the loss of office explicitly known.  Canon 188.4º of the 1917 Code calls this a tacit renunciation of office.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #61 on: September 22, 2023, 10:51:03 AM »
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  • No.  The loss of office takes place at the same time the authority is lost.  A declaration only makes the loss of office explicitly known.  Canon 188.4º of the 1917 Code calls this a tacit renunciation of office.

    I disagree.  St. Robert cited Pope St. Celestine regarding Nestorius, and the quote makes the distinction, putting those who preach heresy in the state of excommunicandus, where he could not exercise authority, but the fact is he remained in office for a couple years after that condition before he was removed.

    Take the case of Cardinal Cushing.  Manifest Heretic ("No salvation outside the Church?  Nonsense." in the late 1940s.  And yet he remained the Archbishop of Boston, and continued to be able to provide jurisdiction to the priests hearing confessions, etc.

    This type of scenario is what sedeprivationism/sedeimpoundism is rooted in.

    188.4 uses the term "defection" from "the Catholic Faith".  This is where S&S claim that only if someone basically leaves the Church by saying, "I've become a Buddhist". comes in.


    Online Catholic Knight

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #62 on: September 22, 2023, 11:45:34 AM »
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  • I disagree.  St. Robert cited Pope St. Celestine regarding Nestorius, and the quote makes the distinction, putting those who preach heresy in the state of excommunicandus, where he could not exercise authority, but the fact is he remained in office for a couple years after that condition before he was removed.

    Please provide the citation of St. Robert Bellarmine to which you are referring.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #63 on: September 22, 2023, 12:13:05 PM »
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  • Billuart:

    "Nevertheless, the more common opinion (sententia communior) holds that Christ, by a special dispensation, for the common good and tranquility of the Church, will continue to give jurisdiction even to a manifestly heretical pope, until he has been declared a manifest heretic by the Church."
    (Summa S. Thomae of Charles Rene Billuart, O.P. (1685-1757) Secunda Secundae, 4th Dissertation: On the Vices Opposed to Faith, Article 3)

    The relevance of Billuart's quote is that sedevacantists interpret St. Bellarmine as proposing a manifest heretic is deprived of office ipso facto (without any judgment or declaration of the Church).

    Billuart is saying exactly the opposite, and more than this, is saying that it is the more common position of approved theologians (i.e., not just his own opinion).

    Billuart explains the reason for this more common opinion a couple paragraphs earlier in the same article: "...the law and praxis of the Church require that a heretic be denounced before he loses his jurisdiction, not for his own benefit, but for the benefit and tranquility of the faithful.

    Even more importantly, this more common opinion (which opposes the erroneous and univocal sedevacantist interpretation of St. Bellarmine's words) is sanctioned by the magisterial teaching of the Church itself in the Papal Bull of Pope Martin V, Ad Evitanda Scandala ("To avoid scandal"):

    "To avoid the scandals and the many perils that can befall timorous consciences, we mercifully grant to the faithful of Christ, by the force of this decree (tenore praesentium), that henceforth no one will be obliged, under the pretext of any sentence or ecclesiastical censure generally promulgated by law or by man, to avoid the communion of any person, in the administration or reception of the Sacraments, or in any other matters sacred or profane, or to eschew the person, or to observe any ecclesiastical interdict, unless a sentence or censure of this kind shall have been published by a judge, and denounced specially and expressly, whether against a person, or a college, or university, or church, or a certain place or territory.  Neither the Apostolic Constitutions, nor any other laws remain in force to the contrary."

    Note also in the following passage, that when Billuart says "or themselves depart from the Church," he means they themselves leave the Church of their own accord (not that by endorsing some heresy, they have departed from the Church):

    "If manifest heretics had to be avoided before their denunciation, this would endanger souls and generate anxiety of conscience, since there would be uncertainty as to who are manifest heretics, some persons affirming, and others denying, as actually happened in the case of Jansenism.  It is very difficult for lay people to know with certainty if someone is a manifest heretic or not, since in most cases the subject-matter of the heresy surpasses their understanding.  For all these reasons, the Council prudently decided that only those who have been denounced would have to be avoided.  These reasons, however, do not apply anymore once the heretic leaves the Church of his own accord."
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #64 on: September 22, 2023, 12:32:06 PM »
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  • Summa S. Thomae
    Secunda Secundae, 4th Dissertation: On the Vices Opposed to Faith.
    ~ Article 3 ~
    by
    Charles Rene Billuart, O.P. (1685-1757)
    http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/thefollowing-excerpt-from-charles-rene.html
     
    "I say that manifest heretics, unless they are denounced by name, or themselves depart from the Church, retain their jurisdiction and validly absolve.  This is proved by the Bull of Martin V, Ad evitanda scandala, [which reads thus]:
    'To avoid the scandals and the many perils that can befall timorous consciences, we mercifully grant to the faithful of Christ, by the force of this decree (tenore praesentium), that henceforth no one will be obliged, under the pretext of any sentence or ecclesiastical censure generally promulgated by law or by man, to avoid the communion of any person, in the administration or reception of the Sacraments, or in any other matters sacred or profane, or to eschew the person, or to observe any ecclesiastical interdict, unless a sentence or censure of this kind shall have been published by a judge, and denounced specially and expressly, whether against a person, or a college, or university, or church, or a certain place or territory.  Neither the Apostolic Constitutions, nor any other laws remain in force to the contrary.'
    "Then [the Bull] lists, as the only exception, those who are notorious for having inflicted violence on the clergy.  From these lines, we argue that the Church is granting permission to the faithful to receive the sacraments from heretics who have not yet been expressly denounced by name; and, therefore, that she allows the latter to retain their jurisdiction for the valid administration of the sacraments, since otherwise the concession granted to the faithful would mean nothing.
    "Our argument is confirmed by the current praxis of the entire Church; for no one today ... avoids his pastor, even for the reception of the sacraments, as long as he is allowed to remain in his benefice, even if the man is, in the judgment of all or at least of the majority, a manifest Jansenist, and rebellious against the definitions of the Church; and so on with the rest.
    "I have said in my thesis, 'unless they depart from the Church of their own accord'; for, by the fact that they depart from the Church, they renounce her jurisdiction, and as a result we infer that the Church does not continue to give it to them.  ...  If manifest heretics had to be avoided before their denunciation, this would endanger souls and generate anxiety of conscience, since there would be uncertainty as to who are manifest heretics, some persons affirming, and others denying, as actually happened in the case of Jansenism.  It is very difficult for lay people to know with certainty if someone is a manifest heretic or not, since in most cases the subject-matter of the heresy surpasses their understanding.  For all these reasons, the Council prudently decided that only those who have been denounced would have to be avoided.  These reasons, however, do not apply anymore once the heretic leaves the Church of his own accord.
    "Nor does it follow from this—as if there were parity—that no one should be considered a public sinner unless denounced; or that, consequently, the Eucharist cannot be denied to any sinners except those who have been denounced.  The difference is, first of all, that the law and praxis of the Church require that a heretic be denounced before he loses his jurisdiction, not for his own benefit, but for the benefit and tranquility of the faithful.  But the Church does not require a denunciation for someone to be considered a public sinner, or to be repelled from Communion, because the welfare and tranquility of the faithful do not require that.  Also, it is not the business of the faithful to pass judgment on the jurisdiction of their ministers, and often it is impossible for them to do so; but this pertains to the superiors who grant the ministers their jurisdiction.  It pertains to the ministers, however, to pass judgment on those who receive the sacraments. ...


    "The pope… does not have his jurisdiction from the Church, but from Christ.  Nowhere has it been declared that Christ would continue to give jurisdiction to a manifestly heretical Pope, since his heresy could become known to the Church, and the Church could provide another pastor for herself.  Nevertheless, the more common opinion (sententia communior) holds that Christ, by a special dispensation, for the common good and tranquility of the Church, will continue to give jurisdiction even to a manifestly heretical pope, until he has been declared a manifest heretic by the Church."

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #65 on: September 22, 2023, 12:39:05 PM »
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  • Billuart:

    "Nevertheless, the more common opinion (sententia communior) holds that Christ, by a special dispensation, for the common good and tranquility of the Church, will continue to give jurisdiction even to a manifestly heretical pope, until he has been declared a manifest heretic by the Church."
    (Summa S. Thomae of Charles Rene Billuart, O.P. (1685-1757) Secunda Secundae, 4th Dissertation: On the Vices Opposed to Faith, Article 3)

    The relevance of Billuart's quote is that sedevacantists interpret St. Bellarmine as proposing a manifest heretic is deprived of office ipso facto (without any judgment or declaration of the Church).

    Billuart is saying exactly the opposite, and more than this, is saying that it is the more common position of approved theologians (i.e., not just his own opinion).

    Billuart explains the reason for this more common opinion a couple paragraphs earlier in the same article: "...the law and praxis of the Church require that a heretic be denounced before he loses his jurisdiction, not for his own benefit, but for the benefit and tranquility of the faithful.

    Even more importantly, this more common opinion (which opposes the erroneous and univocal sedevacantist interpretation of St. Bellarmine's words) is sanctioned by the magisterial teaching of the Church itself in the Papal Bull of Pope Martin V, Ad Evitanda Scandala ("To avoid scandal"):

    "To avoid the scandals and the many perils that can befall timorous consciences, we mercifully grant to the faithful of Christ, by the force of this decree (tenore praesentium), that henceforth no one will be obliged, under the pretext of any sentence or ecclesiastical censure generally promulgated by law or by man, to avoid the communion of any person, in the administration or reception of the Sacraments, or in any other matters sacred or profane, or to eschew the person, or to observe any ecclesiastical interdict, unless a sentence or censure of this kind shall have been published by a judge, and denounced specially and expressly, whether against a person, or a college, or university, or church, or a certain place or territory.  Neither the Apostolic Constitutions, nor any other laws remain in force to the contrary."

    Note also in the following passage, that when Billuart says "or themselves depart from the Church," he means they themselves leave the Church of their own accord (not that by endorsing some heresy, they have departed from the Church):

    "If manifest heretics had to be avoided before their denunciation, this would endanger souls and generate anxiety of conscience, since there would be uncertainty as to who are manifest heretics, some persons affirming, and others denying, as actually happened in the case of Jansenism.  It is very difficult for lay people to know with certainty if someone is a manifest heretic or not, since in most cases the subject-matter of the heresy surpasses their understanding.  For all these reasons, the Council prudently decided that only those who have been denounced would have to be avoided.  These reasons, however, do not apply anymore once the heretic leaves the Church of his own accord."


    I think you’re misconstruing (in red above) jurisdiction with the office. The heretic loses the office ipso facto, but for the common good Christ supplies jurisdiction. With the declaration the supplied jurisdiction disappears as well.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #66 on: September 22, 2023, 01:05:16 PM »
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  • I think you’re misconstruing (in red above) jurisdiction with the office. The heretic loses the office ipso facto, but for the common good Christ supplies jurisdiction. With the declaration the supplied jurisdiction disappears as well.

    With office comes ordinary (not supplied) jurisdiction.

    If the office is lost, the ordinary (not supplied) jurisdiction is lost.

    But if the office is retained, the ordinary (not supplied) jurisdiction is retained.

    Consequently, if Billuart is saying that the office is retained until a declaration, then the jurisdiction which is likewise retained is ordinary, not supplied.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #67 on: September 22, 2023, 02:51:42 PM »
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  • I think you’re misconstruing (in red above) jurisdiction with the office. The heretic loses the office ipso facto, but for the common good Christ supplies jurisdiction. With the declaration the supplied jurisdiction disappears as well.

    Agreed.  Theologians hold that God would continue to supply jurisdiction even through an Antipope through color of title, or, as I would say, through the material office.  While he wouldn't himself possess jurisdiction, IMO, he would act like a conduit or conductor of jurisdiction.  He could do things like making appointments, which are the material aspect of office.  I liken it again to the case of Cardinal Cushing, a manifest heretic.  But because the Pope kept him in office, jurisdiction would be transmitted through him to the priests in his diocese, say, to hear Confessions.


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #68 on: September 22, 2023, 04:19:17 PM »
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  • Billuart:

    "Nevertheless, the more common opinion (sententia communior) holds that Christ, by a special dispensation, for the common good and tranquility of the Church, will continue to give jurisdiction even to a manifestly heretical pope, until he has been declared a manifest heretic by the Church."
    (Summa S. Thomae of Charles Rene Billuart, O.P. (1685-1757) Secunda Secundae, 4th Dissertation: On the Vices Opposed to Faith, Article 3)
    .

    Who exactly does he mean by the Church? :popcorn:

    Offline Gunter

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #69 on: September 23, 2023, 07:15:53 AM »
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  • Would an infallible teaching from the Church constitute a Church jugdemt on a matter?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #70 on: September 23, 2023, 08:21:55 AM »
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  • Who exactly does he mean by the Church? :popcorn:

    Johnson quoting stuff from the first half of the 1700s holding that something was "the more common opinion".  After Vatican I condemned this "more common opinion" as implicitly heretical, 20th century theologians hold that Bellarmine's was THE theological consensus on the matter.  But, as I pointed out, some theologians hold that God would grant jurisdiction to even an Antipope through color of title, so the meaning here is unclear.  I in fact rejected SVism as untenable (vs. SPism) due to the Ecclesiavacantist problem, until some SVs cited these passages about jurisidiction through color of title.  I still hold SPism to be more adequate, but no longer reject SVism as untenable.

    Johnson resorts to all manner of deceptive tactics to justify his heresies.  I don't mince any words here, as Johnson's ecclesiology is overly heretical, indistinguishable really from Old Catholicism.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #71 on: September 23, 2023, 08:29:31 AM »
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  • Bottom line is that since Vatican I only Bellarmine's opinion remains standing.  It is absolutely essential that the Pope have been ipso facto deposed by God BEFORE the Church could render any kind of judgment regarding the man who used to be Pope.  To hold anything else would be to assert the heresy condemned by Vatican I that the Church can pass judgment on a Pope.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #72 on: September 23, 2023, 08:35:58 AM »
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  • Just imagine this scenario.  We know that by some estimates upwards of 97% - 99% of episcopal sees had been usurped by Arians during that crisis.  Let's say that the Arians, who were the majority, had succeeded in putting their man on the See of Peter.  According to Salza and Sizcoe (and Johnson), the Arian Church would then have been the True Church of Christ and the Anti-Arian Fathers, such as St. Athanasius, would have been non-Catholics and outside the Church.  And since only the officially-appointed-with-jurisdiction bishops and Cardinals could "remove" a Pope by some declaration, that would have been the end of the Church, despite St. Athanasius' famous statement that if the Church were reduced to a handful, there would be the Church.  Also, S&S & Johnson condemn the activities of St. Athanasius and a few other Fathers who went around consecrating orthodox bishops in the areas whose sees had been usurped by Arians.  And of course S&S condemn Archbishop Lefebvre as non-Catholics (while Joe Biden remains a Catholic), as well as the Resistance and Sean Johnson.  Something like this is a simple enough argumentum ad absurdum to de-legitimize the S&S position, but Johnson remains oblivious to it, that he's condemning himself while promoting S&S.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #73 on: September 23, 2023, 08:48:05 AM »
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  • Bottom line is that since Vatican I only Bellarmine's opinion remains standing.  It is absolutely essential that the Pope have been ipso facto deposed by God BEFORE the Church could render any kind of judgment regarding the man who used to be Pope.  To hold anything else would be to assert the heresy condemned by Vatican I that the Church can pass judgment on a Pope.

    This is the bottom line: theological consensus vel non since Vatican I. Fr. Kramer argues that it is the consensus that only the Bellarmine opinion (as you and others interpret it) remains standing. At an absolute minimum, Sean must show us, with theologians of authority, that your view of the Bellarmine opinion is wrong.

    But better, and more to the point, Sean needs to make his case with theologians post-Vatican I -  not Billuart - that some declaration of the Church is necessary, otherwise the pope remains pope. Otherwise, he can disagree with you, but he shows himself a lone wolf going against the "pack" - rather like you with regard to BoD, ironically. You interpret Trent against the unanimous voice of post-Trentian theologians. I wait to hear Sean point to theological authority post-V1 and pre-V2 showing his view accords with Vatican I. I'm not saying he can't . . . Fr. Kramer says he can't.

    I wait for him to show us Fr. Kramer is wrong.

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #74 on: September 23, 2023, 09:01:00 AM »
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  • This is the bottom line: theological consensus vel non since Vatican I.

    I'm less concerned about theological consensus than I am with the clear teaching of Vatican I.  I'm sure there are holdouts who make arguments that the Cajetan/SJT position is still tenable since Vatican I, but I imagine they are few and far between.  I don't want to digress into that subject again, but the main point is that the citation from the early 1700s was before Vatican I and may have changed, and such a citation cannot be adduced as proof of anything.  Sean needs to explain why Vatican I doesn't implicitly condemn the Cajetan/SJT positions.