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Author Topic: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante  (Read 6745 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2023, 01:01:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on September 21, 2023, 12:37:09 PM
    Thanks for pointing this out.  I thought the neo-SSPX held to the Fourth Opinion:

    That a manifest heretic does not fall from the pontificate by himself ipso facto, but must be judged by the Church to fall from office.

    This is the basis of Salza and Siscoe's book which was promoted by the neo-SSPX.

    I hadn’t noticed that either.  The article Angelus is quoting was written in 2017.  I wonder if this is another change in furtherance of the ralliement?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #16 on: September 21, 2023, 01:15:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on September 21, 2023, 11:22:24 AM
    Bishop Schneider holds Opinion No. 3 of the Five Opinions expounded upon by St. Robert Bellarmine.  Opinion No. 3 is the following:

    That a pope who is even a manifest heretic is not deposed ipso facto and cannot be deposed by the Church.

    Thanks.  I knew it was one of the five, but didn't recall which # it was.  I think that this #3 was held by like one guy who's long dead, and yet St. Robert mentions it because Turrecremata refuted the guy and he adds his own points.  I don't think anyone has held this opinion from that time until it's resurfaced here from +Schneider, and I guess Fr. Hewko also.  I find this opinion absurd.  So Jorge could run around claiming he's become a Buddhist and nothing could be done about it?  No, St. Robert, John of St. Thomas, and others said that God would not allow the Church not to have a remedy for that type of scenario.  St. Robert called it "extreme" and "exceedingly improbable" ... and he's certainly right about that.
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #17 on: September 21, 2023, 01:40:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on September 21, 2023, 11:22:24 AM
    Here is what St. Robert Bellarmine writes regarding Opinion No. 3:

    “The third opinion is on another extreme, that the Pope is not and cannot be deposed either by secret or manifest heresy. Turrecremata in the aforementioned citation relates and refutes this opinion, and rightly so, for it is exceedingly improbable.
    .

    If a Doctor of the Church says this idea is "exceedingly improbable", then why do so many people believe in it today, especially people who want to adhere to the traditional teachings of the Church? :confused:
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #18 on: September 21, 2023, 01:44:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 21, 2023, 01:15:49 PM
    Thanks.  I knew it was one of the five, but didn't recall which # it was.  I think that this #3 was held by like one guy who's long dead, and yet St. Robert mentions it because Turrecremata refuted the guy and he adds his own points.  I don't think anyone has held this opinion from that time until it's resurfaced here from +Schneider, and I guess Fr. Hewko also.  I find this opinion absurd.  So Jorge could run around claiming he's become a Buddhist and nothing could be done about it?  No, St. Robert, John of St. Thomas, and others said that God would not allow the Church not to have a remedy for that type of scenario.  St. Robert called it "extreme" and "exceedingly improbable" ... and he's certainly right about that.

    You’re thinking of Marie Dominique Bouix, but +Schneider’s opinion is even more isolated/exotic/untenable than Bouix’s, because the latter only considered the case of a pope being a private heretic (3rd opinion), whereas +Schneider surpasses him in stating even a declared heretic pope is irremovable.

    Here’s a NOW article on Bouix:

    https://novusordowatch.org/2019/05/bouix-on-heretical-pope/
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #19 on: September 21, 2023, 01:49:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on September 21, 2023, 01:40:21 PM
    .

    If a Doctor of the Church says this idea is "exceedingly improbable", then why do so many people believe in it today, especially people who want to adhere to the traditional teachings of the Church? :confused:

    I don’t know anyone who holds to Bouix’s opinion (which per my previous post is not the same as Schneider’s):

    Schneidee has actually just invented a 6th Opinion, even more untenable than Bouix:

    Bouix said a pope privately a heretic is irremovable.

    Schneider says even a declared heretic pope is irremovable (a scenario Bouix never even considers).
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #20 on: September 21, 2023, 01:59:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on September 21, 2023, 01:49:04 PM
    I don’t know anyone who holds to Bouix’s opinion (which per my previous post is not the same as Schneider’s):

    Schneidee has actually just invented a 6th Opinion, even more untenable than Bouix:

    Bouix said a pope privately a heretic is irremovable.

    Schneider says even a declared heretic pope is irremovable (a scenario Bouix never even considers).

    "The third opinion is on another extreme, that the Pope is not and cannot be deposed either by secret or manifest heresy."
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #21 on: September 21, 2023, 02:08:29 PM »
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    • +Schneider also says (deceptively) that the idea that a pope could be declared a heretic and removed is +Bellarmine's "opinion", thus he dismisses the idea.  Then he claims that a pope can't be removed is the theological consensus, while in fact, it's also an opinion.  This guy is just bad news; total Modernist liar.
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #22 on: September 21, 2023, 02:20:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on September 21, 2023, 01:40:21 PM
    .

    If a Doctor of the Church says this idea is "exceedingly improbable", then why do so many people believe in it today, especially people who want to adhere to the traditional teachings of the Church? :confused:

    I believe it is because many in Trad circles fail to come to know or accept the following doctrine that must be believed with Divine and Catholic Faith:

    The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #23 on: September 21, 2023, 02:29:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on September 21, 2023, 02:20:34 PM
    I believe it is because many in Trad circles fail to come to know or accept the following doctrine that must be believed with Divine and Catholic Faith:

    The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.
    .

    Yes, but maybe this question is too broad for this discussion, but what I'm wondering is, how can anyone who wants to adhere to tradition begin a sentence with the words, "I reject St. Robert Bellarmine's teaching on ..." How can such a sentence end well? And why do people not accept the teaching of a Doctor of the Church??!
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #24 on: September 21, 2023, 02:38:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on September 21, 2023, 02:20:34 PM
    I believe it is because many in Trad circles fail to come to know or accept the following doctrine that must be believed with Divine and Catholic Faith:

    The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.

    Lol…so Billuart is a heretic for rejecting this “dogma” and nobody knew it until you started posting on CI?

    Quite a few new “dogmas” are revealed here in precisely such a way!
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #25 on: September 21, 2023, 02:40:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on September 21, 2023, 02:29:48 PM
    .

    Yes, but maybe this question is too broad for this discussion, but what I'm wondering is, how can anyone who wants to adhere to tradition begin a sentence with the words, "I reject St. Robert Bellarmine's teaching on ..." How can such a sentence end well? And why do people not accept the teaching of a Doctor of the Church??!

    Because his is a minority opinion, with the majority siding with Cajetan, JST, Billot, Billuart, Vitoria, Suarez, etc (who certainly did not consider disagreeing with Bellarmine impious.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #26 on: September 21, 2023, 03:32:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on September 21, 2023, 02:29:48 PM
    Yes, but maybe this question is too broad for this discussion, but what I'm wondering is, how can anyone who wants to adhere to tradition begin a sentence with the words, "I reject St. Robert Bellarmine's teaching on ..." How can such a sentence end well? And why do people not accept the teaching of a Doctor of the Church??!

    Other top theologians disagreed with St. Robert, and they were not condemned by the Church.  St. Robert, though a Doctor, is not Magisterium, and the Doctors are not infallible.  Even the works of St. Thomas were studied and found to contain about 40 errors.
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    Offline songbird

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #27 on: September 21, 2023, 03:45:39 PM »
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    • Pope may not be removed, by whom, magisterium, man.  Pope answers to God. If, or might the Pope not answer to God, the Pope manifestly separates himself from Church. He looses his authority. The Church looses its head.

    "If the pope does not consecrate Russia, Our Lady said to sister Lucia, he will be as King Louis XIII, who did not consecrate France to the Sacred Heart. "  "Dethroned and he was beheaded."  Church lost its Head. This is very serious, to say the least.

    Errors will continue.  We see the fruits.  You will know them by their fruits.  God gave us eyes and ear.  We know this much.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #28 on: September 21, 2023, 04:11:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on September 21, 2023, 02:29:48 PM
    .

    Yes, but maybe this question is too broad for this discussion, but what I'm wondering is, how can anyone who wants to adhere to tradition begin a sentence with the words, "I reject St. Robert Bellarmine's teaching on ..." How can such a sentence end well? And why do people not accept the teaching of a Doctor of the Church??!

    St. Alphonsus. BoD. 'Nuff said. 

    Btw, that's not a shot at Lad. I agree with him about Drs. not being infallible and having "opinions" like  we do . . . they are as good as their arguments/reasons. 
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    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #29 on: September 21, 2023, 04:13:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on September 21, 2023, 02:40:58 PM
    Because his is a minority opinion, with the majority siding with Cajetan, JST, Billot, Billuart, Vitoria, Suarez, etc (who certainly did not consider disagreeing with Bellarmine impious.

    Minority opinion?
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.
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