Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante  (Read 5854 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SeanJohnson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15060
  • Reputation: +10006/-3162
  • Gender: Male
Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
« Reply #75 on: September 23, 2023, 09:04:02 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Johnson quoting stuff from the first half of the 1700s holding that something was "the more common opinion".  After Vatican I condemned this "more common opinion" as implicitly heretical, 20th century theologians hold that Bellarmine's was THE theological consensus on the matter.  But, as I pointed out, some theologians hold that God would grant jurisdiction to even an Antipope through color of title, so the meaning here is unclear.  I in fact rejected SVism as untenable (vs. SPism) due to the Ecclesiavacantist problem, until some SVs cited these passages about jurisidiction through color of title.  I still hold SPism to be more adequate, but no longer reject SVism as untenable.

    Johnson resorts to all manner of deceptive tactics to justify his heresies.  I don't mince any words here, as Johnson's ecclesiology is overly heretical, indistinguishable really from Old Catholicism.

    I see Loudestmouth is triggered, having spent a sleepless night, worrying about how to salvage his fictitious ecclesiology.

    As pointed out in post #57, his blunder which leads him to fantasize V1 condemned the more common opinion endorsed by most classical theologians, is his failure to distinguish between declaratory and juridical judgments, and that V1 pertained to the latter, and not the former.

    Unable to withstand that reality, he explodes (yet again) in a vomitous explosion of emotional pouting…and another 600 posts.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #76 on: September 23, 2023, 09:07:02 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Bottom line is that since Vatican I only Bellarmine's opinion remains standing.  It is absolutely essential that the Pope have been ipso facto deposed by God BEFORE the Church could render any kind of judgment regarding the man who used to be Pope.  To hold anything else would be to assert the heresy condemned by Vatican I that the Church can pass judgment on a Pope.

    Stupidity.

    Someone should have told Journet that, when discounting Bellarmine, he said Cajetan and JST had more insightful analyses.

    Or did that statement make him a manifest heretic?

    What a moron.

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #77 on: September 23, 2023, 09:09:38 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Just imagine this scenario.  We know that by some estimates upwards of 97% - 99% of episcopal sees had been usurped by Arians during that crisis.  Let's say that the Arians, who were the majority, had succeeded in putting their man on the See of Peter.  According to Salza and Sizcoe (and Johnson), the Arian Church would then have been the True Church of Christ and the Anti-Arian Fathers, such as St. Athanasius, would have been non-Catholics and outside the Church.  And since only the officially-appointed-with-jurisdiction bishops and Cardinals could "remove" a Pope by some declaration, that would have been the end of the Church, despite St. Athanasius' famous statement that if the Church were reduced to a handful, there would be the Church.  Also, S&S & Johnson condemn the activities of St. Athanasius and a few other Fathers who went around consecrating orthodox bishops in the areas whose sees had been usurped by Arians.  And of course S&S condemn Archbishop Lefebvre as non-Catholics (while Joe Biden remains a Catholic), as well as the Resistance and Sean Johnson.  Something like this is a simple enough argumentum ad absurdum to de-legitimize the S&S position, but Johnson remains oblivious to it, that he's condemning himself while promoting S&S.
    Total lie by Loudestmouth:

    Our position is “one pope for two churches,” as he well knows.

    Anyone listening to this demented, heretical devil is a moron.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46290
    • Reputation: +27248/-5037
    • Gender: Male
    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #78 on: September 23, 2023, 09:10:16 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • As I said, the argument really shouldn't be about the theological aspect of ipso facto deposition.  It's clear that the deposition must occur a priori to any judgment.  Problem is more a practical one.  Can Father Cekada's "Aunt Helen" simply wake up one morning and declare the Holy See vacant?

    And then you have this situation.

    Bergoglio:  "[heretical statement]"
    Cardinals/Bishops:  "That's heretical."
    Bergoglio: "No it's not."
    Cardinals/Bishops:  "Yes it is."
    Bergoglio: "No it's not and I teach that it's not."

    Then there are scenarios like the Arian one above, or let's say there's a heretical Pope out there, but there's a World War in progress and the Cardinals/Bishops can't convene any kind of Imperfect Council to make the declaration for several years.  Is that heretic on the See really the pope until the Council can formalize it?

    This is where the formal/material office distinction helps make sense of everything.  Until the Church can make the declaration, the man would remain in material possession of the office and yet bereft of authority and "impounded", to use Father Chazal's expression.

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2312
    • Reputation: +867/-144
    • Gender: Male
    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #79 on: September 23, 2023, 09:14:29 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I'm less concerned about theological consensus than I am with the clear teaching of Vatican I.  I'm sure there are holdouts who make arguments that the Cajetan/SJT position is still tenable since Vatican I, but I imagine they are few and far between.  I don't want to digress into that subject again, but the main point is that the citation from the early 1700s was before Vatican I and may have changed, and such a citation cannot be adduced as proof of anything.  Sean needs to explain why Vatican I doesn't implicitly condemn the Cajetan/SJT positions.

    Yes, consensus is not the right word. Sean needs to show us at least one theologian, post-V1, that agrees with him, or believes that the Cajetan/SJT position survives V1.

    But saying "he needs one" is bit hyperbolic and an extreme which, if he can't find even one, condemns his position by totally and overwhelmingly obliterating it.  In other words, "if you can't even find one . . ." 

    If he does find "one," and only "one" in the course of these 150 or so years, I still think his position would be rather weak, to say the least. I think of your argument regarding Canisius in that regard on BoD, even assuming Canisius would reject BoD, which he never denied or took issue with, though he lived through the publication of the Roman Catechism, for example. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46290
    • Reputation: +27248/-5037
    • Gender: Male
    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #80 on: September 23, 2023, 09:15:18 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Unable to withstand that reality, he explodes (yet again) in a vomitous explosion of emotional pouting…and another 600 posts.

    I think that you're the one who's melting down, as evidenced from this barrage of personal attacks.

    It's a very simple observation, really, that your quote from the 1700s about something being the "more common opinion" nearly 300 years ago is not relevant since Vatican I, where the theological consensus had shifted.  How far do you go back?  I could make a citations from a thousand years ago declaring the notion of Limbo to be heretical.  I could make a citations from St. Thomas Aquinas about the Immaculate Conception (prior to Pius IX).

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46290
    • Reputation: +27248/-5037
    • Gender: Male
    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #81 on: September 23, 2023, 09:17:46 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes, consensus is not the right word. Sean needs to show us at least one theologian, post-V1, that agrees with him, or believes that the Cajetan/SJT position survives V1.

    Or attempt to demonstrate how VI doesn't preclude Cajetan/JST.  Now, he mentioned Cardinal Journet (though I don't recall that he hasn't cited him yet).  As I said, there are probably some holdouts who feel the opinion can survive VI.  But the major point was that this quote from Billuart that he keeps spamming in cannot stand on its own, since that was a reference to the "more common opinion" ... in the early 1700s and before Vatican I.  It's very possible that Billuart himself, after Vatican I, would have rejected the opinion, just as St. Thomas would have revised his thinking about the Immaculate Conception after the dogmatic declaration of Pius IX.  That was really my major point, that he can't just keep blithely spamming in the Billuart quote as it if stands on its own and remains definitive after VI.

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2312
    • Reputation: +867/-144
    • Gender: Male
    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #82 on: September 23, 2023, 09:20:11 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Or attempt to demonstrate how VI doesn't preclude Cajetan/JST.  Now, he mentioned Cardinal Journet (though I don't recall that he hasn't cited him yet).  As I said, there are probably some holdouts who feel the opinion can survive VI.  But the major point was that this quote from Billuart that he keeps spamming in cannot stand on its own, since that was a reference to the "more common opinion" ... in the early 1700s and before Vatican I.  It's very possible that Billuart himself, after Vatican I, would have rejected the opinion, just as St. Thomas would have revised his thinking about the Immaculate Conception after the dogmatic declaration of Pius IX.

    Fr. Kramer on Journet:


    Quote
    Cardinal Journet, who favoured the opinion of John of St. Thomas on the deposition of a heretic pope, was the last and lone prominent representative of the miniscule faction that dissented from what has become the morally unanimous position of theologians and canonists on this point since the late nineteenth century.


    Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope . Kindle Edition.

    The above is a footnote to this sentence:

    Quote
    First Vatican Council, been rejected with virtual unanimity by theologians, since it could be clearly seen, in the light of the absolute supremacy and injudicability of the pope set forth in solemn definition of the primacy, to be contrary to the faith of the Church.

    Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope . Kindle Edition.


    Sean appears to have "one."
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46290
    • Reputation: +27248/-5037
    • Gender: Male
    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #83 on: September 23, 2023, 09:23:17 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • We should all have some questions about the weight of "theological consensus", since nearly every bishop and theologian upheld Vatican II  and the NOM as Catholic (with the only exception among theologians I know being +Guerard des Lauriers).  With regard to bishops, we had +Lefebvre and +de Castro Mayer, but even +Lefebvre at one point signed the docuмents.  Only one I know who didn't was Bishop Arrigo Pintonello.  Did all these theologians suddenly become non-Catholics some time prior to Vatican II?  Or perhaps there's more weight being given the "theological consensus" than it deserves.  We had 97% - 99% of the episcopal Sees taken over by Arians during that crisis.  Did they then represent the Ecclesia Docens?

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46290
    • Reputation: +27248/-5037
    • Gender: Male
    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #84 on: September 23, 2023, 09:24:49 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Fr. Kramer on Journet:


    The above is a footnote to this sentence:


    Sean appears to have "one."


    Yes, I figured there would be a holdout somewhere, but it's still clear that after Vatican I, the Cajetan/SJT opinion did not REMAIN the "more common opinion".

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2312
    • Reputation: +867/-144
    • Gender: Male
    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #85 on: September 23, 2023, 09:31:54 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • We should all have some questions about the weight of "theological consensus", since nearly every bishop and theologian upheld Vatican II  and the NOM as Catholic (with the only exception among theologians I know being +Guerard des Lauriers).  With regard to bishops, we had +Lefebvre and +de Castro Mayer, but even +Lefebvre at one point signed the docuмents.  Only one I know who didn't was Bishop Arrigo Pintonello.  Did all these theologians suddenly become non-Catholics some time prior to Vatican II?  Or perhaps there's more weight being given the "theological consensus" than it deserves.  We had 97% - 99% of the episcopal Sees taken over by Arians during that crisis.  Did they then represent the Ecclesia Docens?

    Agreed.

    It is a fault of us Catholics that we not only concede too much authority to theologians, but even to our prelates, up to our popes. Vide the Conciliar popes. 

    I ask, how does one "keep" these commands of God by ceding final authority on God's commands to men?

    Quote
    Acts 4:19

    But Peter and John answering, said to them: If it be just in the sight of God, to hear you rather than God, judge ye.

    Acts 5:29

    But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men.

    I mean, pray tell, how does one heed that by obeying "men," and deeming them to be the voice of God? That obliterates the distinction being made by God in Acts 5:29.

    But that is a side issue. 

    DR


    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Catholic Knight

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 797
    • Reputation: +238/-79
    • Gender: Male
    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #86 on: September 23, 2023, 09:33:01 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • This is the bottom line: theological consensus vel non since Vatican I. Fr. Kramer argues that it is the consensus that only the Bellarmine opinion (as you and others interpret it) remains standing. At an absolute minimum, Sean must show us, with theologians of authority, that your view of the Bellarmine opinion is wrong.

    But better, and more to the point, Sean needs to make his case with theologians post-Vatican I -  not Billuart - that some declaration of the Church is necessary, otherwise the pope remains pope. Otherwise, he can disagree with you, but he shows himself a lone wolf going against the "pack" - rather like you with regard to BoD, ironically. You interpret Trent against the unanimous voice of post-Trentian theologians. I wait to hear Sean point to theological authority post-V1 and pre-V2 showing his view accords with Vatican I. I'm not saying he can't . . . Fr. Kramer says he can't.

    I wait for him to show us Fr. Kramer is wrong.


    To be clear, Fr. Paul Kramer teaches that St. Robert Bellarmine actually held to Opinion No. 1:

    That the pope simply cannot become a formal heretic, and therefore cannot be deposed for heresy.

    Fr. Paul Kramer also holds to Opinion No. 1.

    Offline Catholic Knight

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 797
    • Reputation: +238/-79
    • Gender: Male
    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #87 on: September 23, 2023, 09:34:57 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I disagree.  St. Robert cited Pope St. Celestine regarding Nestorius, and the quote makes the distinction, putting those who preach heresy in the state of excommunicandus, where he could not exercise authority, but the fact is he remained in office for a couple years after that condition before he was removed.

    Please provide the citation of St. Robert Bellarmine to which you are referring.

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2312
    • Reputation: +867/-144
    • Gender: Male
    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #88 on: September 23, 2023, 09:36:43 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • To be clear, Fr. Paul Kramer teaches that St. Robert Bellarmine actually held to Opinion No. 1:

    That the pope simply cannot become a formal heretic, and therefore cannot be deposed for heresy.

    Fr. Paul Kramer also hold to Opinion No. 1.


    Right. But he argues that if a "pope" were to fall into heresy, he would ipso facto fall from the papacy and the Church. That is the Bellarmine opinion we are addressing. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46290
    • Reputation: +27248/-5037
    • Gender: Male
    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #89 on: September 23, 2023, 09:37:25 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • To be clear, Fr. Paul Kramer teaches that St. Robert Bellarmine actually held to Opinion No. 1:

    That the pope simply cannot become a formal heretic, and therefore cannot be deposed for heresy.

    Fr. Paul Kramer also hold to Opinion No. 1.


    Yes, we understand that, but his #1 opinion was a "pious belief" and not a theological opinion per se.  I hold to #1 myself and believe that these non-popes were never popes.  Unlike Father Kramer, I hold that the first such illegitimately-elected non-pope was Angelo Roncalli (I find the Siri Theory to be highly probable).

    But, as St. Robert did, putting aside #1, of the remaining opinions, he sided with one and refuted the others.