Author Topic: Sanctity and dealing with people (Read 1393 times)

Matthew · « **on:** September 23, 2013, 12:12:26 AM »

How many other members here have read Catholic books on this subject?

I remember reading several times the common teaching of the spiritual masters, namely:

Every man is a saint until he has to deal with people. Then he realizes just how fragile and non-existent his virtues are.

It's easy to deceive yourself into thinking you're holy if no one ever tests you: if you don't have to deal with any customers, co-workers, spouse, children, fellow religious, parishioners, etc.

One saint compared the monks in a monastery to a bunch of rough stones in a bag. By bumping into each other countless times over many years, they all get "smoothed out".

I think this topic is especially relevant to CathInfo and the topic of "traditional Catholic fora". Some people describe themselves as unable to handle discussion fora like CathInfo. They lament how they are often and severely tempted to anger, frustration, lack of charity, etc. and they withdraw themselves completely from all such places.

But what happens then? They're basically giving up. They still must live with themselves (a.k.a. "the real problem"), and they're probably failing just as much with the handful of people they are forced to deal with IRL. So why not just keep up the good fight, rather than trying to run away?

Is it pride? A constant reminder of one's lack of virtue is welcomed by the humble, but can't be stomached by the proud.

I just thought this was a good topic for discussion, as it came up in my own life recently.

clare · « **Reply #1 on:** September 23, 2013, 08:44:35 AM »

Read Kindness by Fr Faber. It's full of wisdom.

Quote

... The worst kinds of unhappiness, as well as the greatest amount of it, come from our conduct to each other. If our conduct, therefore, were under the control of kindness, it would be nearly the opposite of what it is, and so the state of the world would be almost reversed. We are for the most part unhappy because the world is an unkind world ; but the world is only unkind for the lack of kindness in us units who compose it. Now, if all this is but so much as half true, it is plainly worth our while to take some trouble to gain clear and definite notions of kindness. We practise more easily what we already know clearly.
...

poche · « **Reply #2 on:** September 23, 2013, 09:56:04 AM »

St Theresa of Avila treats this very subject in her Way of Perfection

s2srea · « **Reply #3 on:** September 23, 2013, 10:07:13 AM »

Gonna disagree with you here Matt. I don't think you can equate public forums to real life experiences. There is something fundamentally different about posting words/ thoughts online, behind a computer screen and username, as opposed to interacting with people in person, seeing them face to face, etc. I am going to say that these forums, yours included, are the best thing of a bad situation. If the Church was flourishing (and when She flourishes again), I would not be surprised to see legitimate restrictions placed on the people from using forums.

The good fight isn't about knowing all and being right on the current 'positions'. Its about establishing a relationship with our Blessed Lord through his blessed mother. I think that people who are humble enough to realize that they are, as you say, "unable to handle a discussion fora like Cathinfo', are probably moved by the Holy Ghost. They have probably engaged in the sins you speak of (unjust anger, lack of charity, etc), and are following the advice of Our Blessed Lord in the Gospels by cutting off that which leads them to sin.

I am not saying there is no place for these forums. I'm saying they're probably doing more than they they ought to. There is more that goes on than just, 'discussing the subjects'.

I've been contemplating myself whether to post here or not. I've decided I'm not going to cut myself off completely, because there are obvious benefits this forum (specifically) provides. And there is nothing like a dose of TradCat comradery after bombardment 'in the world', sure. But more often than not (and I may be speaking for myself only, but I think this is a valid and objective assessment for most), there is unprofitable and uncharitable discourse. Its no one's particular fault, because we're taught to fight for the Truth. But the particular crisis in the Church today can be, and is, split a thousand different ways, and that leads to a thousand different disagreements and, potentially, a thousand different arguments. Anyways, I think you see where I'm going with this. We're dealing with the Marines of the Church Militant here (I'm saying this as one who served in the Air Force- don't tell my friends). Our love of Truth, as found in Theology and the Sacred Tradition of our Beautiful Church is only matched by our willingness to stand up for that Truth; without strong authority, a gang of marines, without their sergeant to corral them, will inevitably eat itself from the inside out with plenty fist fights and brawls.

Pray for me!

wallflower · « **Reply #4 on:** September 23, 2013, 10:27:26 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

Every man is a saint until he has to deal with people. Then he realizes just how fragile and non-existent his virtues are.

Ain't that the truth! It's not just when a person has to deal with people but also when he finds himself in circuмstances that are different from what he is accustomed to. Sometimes we think we have acquired a virtue but it simply hasn't been tested so we haven't seen how weak we actually are.

I agree very much with your post but I think it only applies to an extent to online forums because they aren't usually necessary to life. Besides getting some news that would be hard to find elsewhere, online forums are an extra for most people. God gives us the graces to deal with the trials He sends us but I'm not convinced we fare as well when we bring on extra trials through our own stupidities.

When I get sucked in online I start getting short-tempered and impatient. I become "obsessed" and can't think of anything else. My husband finds it difficult to engage me in conversation because my mind is elsewhere, arguing with imaginary foes. I care for the children mechanically and am not present in the moment to interact and play with them. Those are danger signs that I have learned mean that I am depriving myself of actual graces in the non-performance of my duty of state. Unless others have the vocation of being online (God-given, not self-appointed or desired) they likely struggle with this too. This is where I think many of the quitting-the-forum posts stem from. Being online is an extra and although it may be better to moderate one's use rather than quitting altogether, forums aren't a necessity so there is no harm in quitting them altogether. A person can just as easily find different ways to recreate that may even be better for them if it means getting outside more often or developing hobbies.

Also, just as IRL there is bad company online. Many people are simply pilgrims on the same journey but many others truly have bad will and would be avoided IRL. They spread agitation and disruption wherever they go. It is a modern idea that deliberately putting oneself in an occasion of sin will "mature" a person. There is a difference between temptations and occasions that God or life in general presents before us and those we seek out. Again I don't think we fare as well when we're seeking them out. It's a bit on the presumptuous side at best. If forums present an occasion of sin for someone, it could be what you say, that they simply haven't acquired the necessary virtues to deal with it and will have issues IRL too, but it could also be that forums really are an occasion of sin. And since they are on the lower end of the totem pole, they get kicked to the curb more often. The level of importance a person places on being online dictates how much ~~crap~~ disruption of peace of soul that they will take from others. At some point a person is culpable for continuing to go back for more.

Matthew · « **Reply #5 on:** September 23, 2013, 10:31:55 AM »

Yes, I do realize that people act differently on forums than real life.

But the habit/virtue of knowing which threads/arguments to avoid is one of the virtues we should try to develop. We should avoid unnecessary strife IRL as well. Out there in the world there is gossip, factions (especially in larger companies), backbiting, arguments, etc. Those are the IRL "threads" that we need to quickly recognize as something to be avoided.

Moreover, we should learn to deal with different kinds of people and different points of view. Even in the cases where you're 100% right and the other person is 100% wrong, you at least remind yourself of why you believe the way you do. You also get a review of the arguments of "the other side" so you can form the answer to them (you never know when you're going to need such a thing, even if it's a co-worker you have to "post a response" to)

I also agree about your general assessment of Trads. They're used to fighting, and they need a strong leader so they don't expend their energy fighting each other. That's why we need a good Pope. All in God's time.

P.S.
The point about "dealing with people" applying to CathInfo was only a side remark. It wasn't the main point of my post. I was asking, in so many words, "How pathetic is it when PEOPLE are an occasion of sin for you? And if you achieve the age of 30, for example, without acquiring the virtue to not be assaulted with the temptation to anger when you're around them -- what do you do?"

wallflower · « **Reply #6 on:** September 23, 2013, 10:44:27 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

But the habit/virtue of knowing which threads/arguments to avoid is one of the virtues we should try to develop. We should avoid unnecessary strife IRL as well. Out there in the world there is gossip, factions (especially in larger companies), backbiting, arguments, etc. Those are the IRL "threads" that we need to quickly recognize as something to be avoided.

Moreover, we should learn to deal with different kinds of people and different points of view. Even in the cases where you're 100% right and the other person is 100% wrong, you at least remind yourself of why you believe the way you do. You also get a review of the arguments of "the other side" so you can form the answer to them (you never know when you're going to need such a thing, even if it's a co-worker you have to "post a response" to)

This is ultimately why I choose to stay online. It has taken a couple of years to know MY danger signs but now that I am more aware of my limitations online it is easier to keep a balance and benefit from the points above.

clare · « **Reply #7 on:** September 23, 2013, 10:48:24 AM »

The trouble with a lot of forum behaviour is that, it seems many people aren't actually interested in convincing their opponents of the rightness of their position. If they were, they wouldn't be carrying on the way they do! Nor are they concerned about the souls of their opponents. If they are, they have a funny way of showing it!

More wisdom from Fr Faber:

Quote

... We must come to esteem very lightly our sharp eye for evil, on which, perhaps, we once prided ourselves as cleverness. It has been to us a fountain of sarcasm ; and how seldom since Adam was created has sarcasm fallen short of being a sin !....

... Kindness to be perfect, to be lasting, must be a conscious imitation of God : sharpness, bitterness, sarcasm, acute observation, divination of motives — all these things disappear when a man is earnestly conforming himself to the image of Christ Jesus...

...There are a thousand things to be reformed, and no reform succeeds unless it be genial. No one was ever corrected by a sarcasm, crushed, perhaps, if the sarcasm was clever enough, but drawn nearer to God, never....

Mama ChaCha · « **Reply #8 on:** September 23, 2013, 11:09:28 AM »

If I may humbly interject an opinion, and please take it as no more than an opinion and thus easily disregarded.

Perhaps we would do well to behave online as though we were face-to-face. It may help us to remember that there are people on the other side of that avatar.
It may be that when we can hide behind anonymity we become rash, brazen, tend towards too much legalism and are not as charitable towards each other as we would be in real life.

PerEvangelicaDicta · « **Reply #9 on:** September 23, 2013, 11:35:52 AM »

Thank you, Matthew! This is an important topic for CathInfo.

The commands of Holy Scripture are not optional.

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Colossians 3:17
All whatsoever you do in word or in work, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

I treasure and appreciate this forum and all manner of personalities here that enhance my knowledge and advance my faith. That said, there is rarely a thread where I don't feel the need to jump in with a reminder to someone that they are Catholic and to check themselves.
On a traditional Catholic forum, why are so many, many people snarky and sarcastic in commentary... worse, they rejoice in demeaning the person they are debating? I don't get it. Shouldn't our faith be evident in all discourse, online or not? He will judge us for our uncharitable behavior online, as surely as He will other acts of abuse toward our brothers. It is sinful to be unkind.
(Please do not confuse this with charitable,, stern correction when someone is in error)

Quote

But more often than not (and I may be speaking for myself only, but I think this is a valid and objective assessment for most), there is unprofitable and uncharitable discourse.

Amen.
We all have to check ourselves. If certain commentary instills anything whatsoever in our passions except love for our Savior, STOP and think about what He would want conveyed. Don't let your passions rule, that's immature and pagan. He is your King, let His Holy Ghost speak through you.

Quote

1 Peter 4:11
If any man speak, let him speak, as the words of God. If any man minister, let him do it, as of the power, which God administereth: that in all things God may be honoured through Jesus Christ: to whom is glory and empire for ever and ever. Amen.

PerEvangelicaDicta · « **Reply #10 on:** September 23, 2013, 12:16:16 PM »

Clare, great quotes!

clare · « **Reply #11 on:** September 23, 2013, 12:35:33 PM »

Another pertinent one, from The Imitation of Christ:

Quote

Bearing with the Faults of Others

UNTIL God ordains otherwise, a man ought to bear patiently whatever he cannot correct in himself and in others. Consider it better thus—perhaps to try your patience and to test you, for without such patience and trial your merits are of little account. Nevertheless, under such difficulties you should pray that God will consent to help you bear them calmly.

If, after being admonished once or twice, a person does not amend, do not argue with him but commit the whole matter to God that His will and honor may be furthered in all His servants, for God knows well how to turn evil to good. Try to bear patiently with the defects and infirmities of others, whatever they may be, because you also have many a fault which others must endure.

If you cannot make yourself what you would wish to be, how can you bend others to your will? We want them to be perfect, yet we do not correct our own faults. We wish them to be severely corrected, yet we will not correct ourselves. Their great liberty displeases us, yet we would not be denied what we ask. We would have them bound by laws, yet we will allow ourselves to be restrained in nothing. Hence, it is clear how seldom we think of others as we do of ourselves.

If all were perfect, what should we have to suffer from others for God’s sake? But God has so ordained, that we may learn to bear with one another’s burdens, for there is no man without fault, no man without burden, no man sufficient to himself nor wise enough. Hence we must support one another, console one another, mutually help, counsel, and advise, for the measure of every man’s virtue is best revealed in time of adversity—adversity that does not weaken a man but rather shows what he is.

shin · « **Reply #12 on:** September 23, 2013, 01:03:40 PM »

Lot of good advice on this thread! Deo gratias et Mariae semper Virgini!

Hobbledehoy · « **Reply #13 on:** September 23, 2013, 05:05:30 PM »

Let's try something: before engaging in discussions upon matters regarding faith and morals (whether online or in the real world) let us pray the following prayer, taken from the work Rev. Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P., The Love of God and the Cross of Jesus, (trans. Sister Jeanne Marie, O. P.; Vol. 2; St. Louis, MO: B. Herder Book Co., 1951):