Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Sanborn on the vaxx . . .  (Read 6749 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline PAT317

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 913
  • Reputation: +787/-117
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sanborn on the vaxx . . .
« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2021, 08:56:05 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • This is yet another article related to the ethics of the "vассinе".  I am not at all familiar with the author, though it looks like he's novus ordo.

    https://www.lumenfidei.ie/docuмents/fr-ambrose-astor-on-conscience.pdf



    Quote
         

    Mοrе thаn еvеr, wе nееd thе spirit οf thе cοnfеssοrs аnd mаrtyrs whο аvοidеd thе slightеst suspiciοn οf cοllаbοrаtiοn with thе еvil οf thеir οwn аgе. Sοmе churchmеn in οur dаy rеаssurе thе fаithful by аffirming thаt rеcеiving а COVID-19 vаccinе dеrivеd frοm thе cеll linеs οf аn аbοrtеd child is mοrаlly licit if аn аltеrnаtivе is nοt аvаilаblе. Thеy justify thеir аssеrtiοn οn thе bаsis οf “mаtеriаl аnd rеmοtе cοοpеrаtiοn” with еvil. Such аffirmаtiοns аrе еxtrеmеly аntipаstοrаl аnd cοuntеrprοductivе, еspеciаlly whеn οnе cοnsidеrs thе incrеаsingly аpοcаlyptic chаrаctеr οf thе аbοrtiοn industry, аnd thе inhumаn nаturе οf sοmе biοmеdicаl rеsеаrch аnd еmbryοnic tеchnοlοgy. Nοw mοrе thаn еvеr, Cаthοlics cаtеgοricаlly cаnnοt еncοurаgе аnd prοmοtе thе sin οf аbοrtiοn, еvеn in thе slightеst, by аccеpting thеsе vаccinеs.




    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 32597
    • Reputation: +28828/-571
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sanborn on the vaxx . . .
    « Reply #46 on: December 06, 2021, 01:34:07 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • That is what I've been noticing about his Excellency over the past couple years. Sure, he calls out the evils of Bergoglio and the Novus Ordo, but he has said very little about the blatant worldwide conspiracy overtaking all centers of government.

    After reading the statement, I can see that his logic on the moral stance of whether or not to take the vaccine is solid. But, that's only taking into account the shot as a traditional vaccine, which we all know that it is not. Most of us, while very concerned about the usage of any fetal cells derived from abortion, are only secondarily concerned about the shot in this regard; and rather have more grave concerns over the long-term effects, which his Excellency briefly skims over, and how that plays into a violation of the 5th Commandment.

    Compare what Bp. Sanborn has said here to someone like Fr. Jenkins or Fr. Chazal, who have been talking about the potential implications of these mandates and the shot for months now, and we can see that the good Bishop appears to be fairly ignorant of just how grave this entire situation is.

    Yes, I feel the same way, unfortunately. It seems as though age has dulled those once sharp anti-Modernist teeth.

    Exactly.

    Anyone who can't read the signs of the times isn't very wise in my book. Maybe I'm just spoiled by wise bishops like +Williamson and +Zendejas (all 4 of the Resistance bishops really, but I know these two the best) -- I assume someone with the age, education, experience that a bishop should have, as well as time to pray, philosophize and think, should be able to figure out the basics of how the world works.

    There are teen boys who know about (((those who run the world))). Any bishop -- usually well over 40 years old -- who can't manage that level of "awake" is pretty sad in my book.

    Anyone who doesn't see problems with this Covid scamdemic hasn't been paying attention. That's all I can say. And these bishops who aren't awake -- what are they doing, taking the Media at face value? THEY SHOULD KNOW BETTER. Who do they think owns the Media? They ought to be ashamed.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com


    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46425
    • Reputation: +27334/-5046
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sanborn on the vaxx . . .
    « Reply #47 on: December 06, 2021, 05:47:04 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Bishop Sanborn is a guardian of souls and defender of the faith. If there is an assault on the faith connected with the jab, it is only implicit; there is nothing explicitly against Christ or our Catholic faith about the jab in se. I understand the connections most Trad's make between the Great Reset, the vax, the lockdowns, etc. I would tend to agree there. But I see that a faithful shepherd - even without compromise to the faith - could take Bishop Sanborn's position.

    Only one who's living in some bubble without any application of historical context to the situation.  Father Ripperger argues that the morality is informed by the context.

    This distinction of material vs. formal has largely been misapplied in the realm of moral theology, to the point that you could shoot someone in the head and if you don't "internally (in your mind) consent to his death," then you don't commit a grave sin.  This notion of formal vs. material has also been used to gut EENS dogma (and Bishop Sanborn is not great on that issue either).  Material-Formal is in fact the go-to distinction of a Thomist, but it's been warped into "external" vs. "internal" in the realm of moral theology and soteriology.  Moral Theology needs to be framed in terms of cause and effect, to determine what's OBJECTIVELY grave.  Now if the consent isn't there, then that mitigates culpability in the intenral forum, but that does not make the act itself permissible.  That has to be determined by cause and effect.  Am I a CAUSE of the immoral action?

    Nevertheless, applying remote material cooperation to this case is like saying it's OK for me to buy a stolen vehicle because I didn't really agree with the original theft of it.  You're participating in an ONGOING evil.  There's nothing particularly remote about this evil.  Folks like Bishop Sanborn get myopically trapped in a syllogism and fail to see the wider context.

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2312
    • Reputation: +867/-144
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sanborn on the vaxx . . .
    « Reply #48 on: December 06, 2021, 06:33:56 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Only one who's living in some bubble without any application of historical context to the situation.  Father Ripperger argues that the morality is informed by the context.

    This distinction of material vs. formal has largely been misapplied in the realm of moral theology, to the point that you could shoot someone in the head and if you don't "internally (in your mind) consent to his death," then you don't commit a grave sin.  This notion of formal vs. material has also been used to gut EENS dogma (and Bishop Sanborn is not great on that issue either).  Material-Formal is in fact the go-to distinction of a Thomist, but it's been warped into "external" vs. "internal" in the realm of moral theology and soteriology.  Moral Theology needs to be framed in terms of cause and effect, to determine what's OBJECTIVELY grave.  Now if the consent isn't there, then that mitigates culpability in the intenral forum, but that does not make the act itself permissible.  That has to be determined by cause and effect.  Am I a CAUSE of the immoral action?

    Nevertheless, applying remote material cooperation to this case is like saying it's OK for me to buy a stolen vehicle because I didn't really agree with the original theft of it.  You're participating in an ONGOING evil.  There's nothing particularly remote about this evil.  Folks like Bishop Sanborn get myopically trapped in a syllogism and fail to see the wider context.

    That's what I was talking about. In the thread you quoted me from, I was responding to the "vax is part of the Great reset argument, etc." not an engagement on the moral question, which I said was needed. To provide greater context to the quote from me:


    Quote
    Bishop Sanborn is a guardian of souls and defender of the faith. If there is an assault on the faith connected with the jab, it is only implicit; there is nothing explicitly against Christ or our Catholic faith about the jab in se. I understand the connections most Trad's make between the Great Reset, the vax, the lockdowns, etc. I would tend to agree there. But I see that a faithful shepherd - even without compromise to the faith - could take Bishop Sanborn's position.


    The crux is Question 6 in Bishop Sanborn's memo. I think his reasoning there certainly defensible, but if there's any basis to question his judgment as in some way disqualifying, it's there. I haven't seen any reasoned objection that his position is in some ways disqualifying as to his position as a leader of the traditional cause of the faith on that ground.

    Question 6 in Bishop's Sanborn's article or memo said this:



    Quote
    Question 6. Would it not be immoral to take the vaccine because tissue from aborted babies was used in its development? No. The reason is that it would be a cooperation in abortion which is both material and remote. Catholic moral theology teaches that, where there is a proportionate reason, one may cooperate in an evil act, provided that the cooperation is material and remote. Material cooperation means that you do not consent to the evil act. It is opposed to formal cooperation, in which consent is given. Therefore a pro-abortion nurse in an abortion clinic who helps the doctor murder the babies is giving formal cooperation, since she consents. Remote cooperation means that the act you are positing flows into the evil effect only to a lesser degree. 3 So the janitor who cleans up the abortion clinic at night contributes only very remotely to the murdering of babies. But he could not take such a job except for a proportionate reason, e.g., it is the only job he can get., and provided that there be no scandal (a condition required for any remote cooperation). Furthermore, the vaccines, according to the emphatic statements of their manufacturers, do not contain fetal tissue. It is true, however, that the vaccines were developed by using fetal tissue for research from babies aborted many decades ago. Hence the acceptance of the vaccine is only a very remote cooperation in abortion, if indeed it can be considered to be a cooperation at all. Consequently the vaccine could be taken for a proportionate reason. I say could, since someone may opt to refrain altogether from any cooperation, even remote, with abortion. No one should be obliged to act against his conscience in this matter. It should be pointed out, however, that every time you pay your federal taxes you are remotely cooperating in abortion, since the federal government monetarily supports Planned Parenthood. But you have a proportionate reason, namely to avoid a jail sentence for tax evasion. The same may be said for your school taxes, supporting in many cases school districts which promote CRT or transgenderism. Many products and services, furthermore, which you purchase involve a remote cooperation in evil projects, but this is cooperation which is both material and remote. Most of the big corporations are “woke,” and contribute money to evil entities. (Holding stock in these companies, for example, would be proximate cooperation. So look at your portfolio.)

    ******Footnote 3 - The famous moral theologian Merkelbach expresses it this way: “cooperation can be proximate or remote, to the extent that the 3 means provided by its very nature or by circuмstances flows more or less and has a greater or lesser connection with the sin of the principal agent, v.g., to hold the ladder for someone who is climbing it, or to give an idol to an infidel is considered proximate, whereas to hand a ladder to a thief, or to sell the material from which an idol will be made, is remote cooperation.”

    Thanks for engaging the issue.

    DR



    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline gladius_veritatis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 8084
    • Reputation: +2484/-1109
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sanborn on the vaxx . . .
    « Reply #49 on: December 10, 2021, 03:49:07 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • The two are intrinsically linked, out here in reality.

    Having lived within those walls -- albeit in MI many years ago -- I would say he is not notably acquainted with reality.  To quote a poem I read somewhere...

    "Deal with Reality, or it will deal with thee..."
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline gladius_veritatis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 8084
    • Reputation: +2484/-1109
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sanborn on the vaxx . . .
    « Reply #50 on: December 10, 2021, 04:11:03 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Did anyone else notice and find it odd that he made his underlings sign that they agree with the doc?  To what end?

    Is this common practice at MHT these days?

    +Selway is a grown man and a bishop, yet he is being humiliated here, imo...
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11353
    • Reputation: +6334/-1095
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Sanborn on the vaxx . . .
    « Reply #51 on: December 10, 2021, 04:16:15 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Did anyone else notice and find it odd that he made his underlings sign that they agree with the doc?  To what end?

    Is this common practice at MHT these days?

    +Selway is a grown man and a bishop, yet he is being humiliated here, imo...
    I disagree with them entirely, but I don't think he made them do anything.  I think Bishop Selway's signature could have a lot to do with the fact that, in addition to being very sick with the COVID himself, his young sister with Down Syndrome was deathly sick with COVID a few months back..and is still recovering to this day. 

    Offline DigitalLogos

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8304
    • Reputation: +4717/-754
    • Gender: Male
    • Slave to the Sacred Heart
      • Twitter
    Re: Sanborn on the vaxx . . .
    « Reply #52 on: December 10, 2021, 04:22:19 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I haven't read through this yet, but this is Father Stephen McKenna's ...of St Gertrude....response regarding the vaccine:


    http://www.sgg.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/JabMcKenna211205.pdf
    This was a great response and precisely the stance that needs to be taken with these magic potions being passed off as vaccines. Thanks for sharing this.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline gladius_veritatis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 8084
    • Reputation: +2484/-1109
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sanborn on the vaxx . . .
    « Reply #53 on: December 10, 2021, 04:30:53 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I disagree with them entirely, but I don't think he made them do anything.

    It just struck/strikes me as odd.  It isn't like it is some sort of theological statement from "The Institute."  [As an aside, their take on the "una cuм" issue is only their opinion, but they sure as hell don't treat it as such.  Read the citation from Merkelbach, I think, at the end of the article and see if it seems a bit ironic and/or hypocritical.]

    So, +Sanborn was going to just say nothing, but then decides to capitulate, if you will, in order to offer such an utterly useless contribution during one of the most serious moments in history?  Ah, the many hirelings of Traddieland; unfortunately for the sheep, they never disappoint. 
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline DigitalLogos

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8304
    • Reputation: +4717/-754
    • Gender: Male
    • Slave to the Sacred Heart
      • Twitter
    Re: Sanborn on the vaxx . . .
    « Reply #54 on: December 10, 2021, 04:35:11 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So, +Sanborn was going to just say nothing, but then decides to capitulate, if you will, in order to offer such an utterly useless contribution during one of the most serious moments in history?  Ah, the many hirelings of Traddieland; unfortunately for the sheep, they never disappoint.
    I had a suspicion he would do such given the lack of any real position on the situation.


    "But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?"
    [Luke 18:8]
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11353
    • Reputation: +6334/-1095
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Sanborn on the vaxx . . .
    « Reply #55 on: December 10, 2021, 04:37:55 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • This was a great response and precisely the stance that needs to be taken with these magic potions being passed off as vaccines. Thanks for sharing this.
    Yes, I agree.  I also thought Father was also respectful in his response.


    Offline gladius_veritatis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 8084
    • Reputation: +2484/-1109
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sanborn on the vaxx . . .
    « Reply #56 on: December 10, 2021, 06:36:59 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Footnote 10:

    The moral theologian Merkelbach says: “In the direction of others, we [clergy] cannot impose but only counsel our own system, or one or the other probable opinion, because priests are not legislators nor can they give orders, except in a special case [Latin : per accidens], if the other person should consent to it, or if, for some other reason, there would follow some particular danger for him.” Summa Theologiæ Moralis, Vol. II, no. 100. [emphasis added] This rule must also be applied to bishops without jurisdiction, i.e., who are not the bishop of the diocese, since they, as well, are not legislators and cannot give orders. Traditional priests and bishops are not parish priests or pastors, but merely clergy who have assumed, without any appointment and completely on their own, the care of a certain Mass center. While their opinions should be carefully weighed and respected, the faithful should understand that the clergy in charge of their Mass center do not speak with the authority of the Catholic Church, and that the laity are not bound to adhere to any pronouncements they may make. The faithful would be bound to the teachings of the aforesaid clergy, if the clergy are presenting to the faithful doctrines or moral teaching already declared by the Church. In this case they are obeying the Church, and not the clergy of the local Mass center.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4065
    • Reputation: +2403/-524
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sanborn on the vaxx . . .
    « Reply #57 on: December 10, 2021, 07:03:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Did anyone else notice and find it odd that he made his underlings sign that they agree with the doc?  To what end?

    Is this common practice at MHT these days?
    .
    This is not at all a common practice. On the contrary, I read everything Bp. Sanborn writes and this is the first time I have ever seen him append the signatures of other priests to one of his articles.

    Offline bodeens

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1513
    • Reputation: +804/-160
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sanborn on the vaxx . . .
    « Reply #58 on: December 10, 2021, 09:56:19 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • .
    This is not at all a common practice. On the contrary, I read everything Bp. Sanborn writes and this is the first time I have ever seen him append the signatures of other priests to one of his articles.
    One might say they are moving in "Lockstep", as the Rockefellers would say.
    Regard all of my posts as unfounded slander, heresy, theologically specious etc
    I accept Church teaching on Implicit Baptism of Desire.
    Francis is Pope.
    NO is a good Mass.
    Not an ironic sig.

    Offline josefamenendez

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5452
    • Reputation: +4109/-284
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Sanborn on the vaxx . . .
    « Reply #59 on: December 10, 2021, 10:12:44 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Did I miss something or did Fr McKenna's very well researched paper not say anything about the use of fetal tissue? That would be a big oversight.