Author Topic: Saints Who Fell From Grace?  (Read 1330 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Saints Who Fell From Grace?
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2021, 12:20:42 PM »
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  • Interesting. Because Bishop Pfeiffer says the opposite. That such sins are the cause of anger (road rage).

    That's why I brought it up.  +?Pfeiffer was just plain wrong.  Catholic moral theology has always held them to be two distinct impulses, and so have world cultures.  In ancient cultures, men prone to impurity were considered to be weakened for battle, made softer, and less aggressive ... and so some cultures ordered their soldiers to remain "clean" from impurity before battle.  Both concupiscence (impulse to impurity) and irascibility (impulse toward anger) are effects of Original Sin but are always listed as two distinct effects.  Finally, anger/wrath and lust are listed as two separate cardinal sins, and by cardinal is meant that they do not reduce to other sins.  So anger/wrath does not reduce to lust.  In fact, I believe that the reason our country is so docile and puts up with so much criminal activity from the government is precisely due to being given over so thoroughly to impurity.  Impurity makes men soft, and less virile.  It's almost as if those who conquer the impulse to impurity find themselves with irascibility (tendency toward anger) manifesting itself even more strongly as an "outlet" for Original Sin.

    Of course, sometimes irritability can come from other causes, but even then when I see it it's mostly when people are ill or in pain or in discomfort.  That too I attribute to the fact that when you are ill or in pain, carnal gratification is typically the last thing one is inclined toward ... so the irascibility manifests itself.

    That is not to say that someone who's given over to impurity can't also have a tendency to anger/rage, but it's never the kind that comes from principle, indignation (for example) against injustice or lies or criminality.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Saints Who Fell From Grace?
    « Reply #16 on: October 13, 2021, 12:23:46 PM »
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  • I've never heard of any saint coming out of the unitive way, especially not the transforming union, but I'd be open to hearing it.

    I vaguely recall either St. Therese or St. John referring to examples of that, where they assert that such as those are all but lost, and that they fall much harder and sink much lower than had they not reaches those heights of union.  It's like with the fallen angels, who were in close union with God, but when they rejected that union, they became that much more depraved and evil.  There's a principle of corruptio optimi pessma, which is basically, the higher they are the harder they fall.

    As for not hearing about examples, we wouldn't hear about them because it's unlikely that they would have ended up as saints.


    Offline Ascetik

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    Re: Saints Who Fell From Grace?
    « Reply #17 on: October 13, 2021, 12:27:23 PM »
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  • They were referring to those in the upper mansions of the illuminative way I believe, but I'd have to dig pretty hard to find those quotes. I have read those same passages, I have both of their complete works.

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Saints Who Fell From Grace?
    « Reply #18 on: October 13, 2021, 04:06:50 PM »
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  • Interesting. Because Bishop Pfeiffer says the opposite. That such sins are the cause of anger (road rage).
    Road rage is caused by violating the sixth commandment?  Did I miss something?

    Offline Matto

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    Re: Saints Who Fell From Grace?
    « Reply #19 on: October 13, 2021, 04:51:52 PM »
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  • Road rage is caused by violating the sixth commandment?  Did I miss something?
    Bishop Pfeiffer gave a famous or infamous sermon where he said road rage and other anger was caused by self-abuse.
    I Love Watching Butterflies . . ..


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Saints Who Fell From Grace?
    « Reply #20 on: October 13, 2021, 05:27:59 PM »
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  • That's why I brought it up.  +?Pfeiffer was just plain wrong.  Catholic moral theology has always held them to be two distinct impulses, and so have world cultures.  In ancient cultures, men prone to impurity were considered to be weakened for battle, made softer, and less aggressive ... and so some cultures ordered their soldiers to remain "clean" from impurity before battle.  Both concupiscence (impulse to impurity) and irascibility (impulse toward anger) are effects of Original Sin but are always listed as two distinct effects.  Finally, anger/wrath and lust are listed as two separate cardinal sins, and by cardinal is meant that they do not reduce to other sins.  So anger/wrath does not reduce to lust.  In fact, I believe that the reason our country is so docile and puts up with so much criminal activity from the government is precisely due to being given over so thoroughly to impurity.  Impurity makes men soft, and less virile.  It's almost as if those who conquer the impulse to impurity find themselves with irascibility (tendency toward anger) manifesting itself even more strongly as an "outlet" for Original Sin.

    Of course, sometimes irritability can come from other causes, but even then when I see it it's mostly when people are ill or in pain or in discomfort.  That too I attribute to the fact that when you are ill or in pain, carnal gratification is typically the last thing one is inclined toward ... so the irascibility manifests itself.

    That is not to say that someone who's given over to impurity can't also have a tendency to anger/rage, but it's never the kind that comes from principle, indignation (for example) against injustice or lies or criminality.
    This makes perfect sense to me. I was a lot more docile and relaxed about things when I was given over to impurity. But, now that I'm not, it's a lot harder to control. I'm not the kind of guy to go into a rage all the time, but, it does show itself when I'm on my last nerve of course.
    Secondarily, I've noticed it's much easier to fall into anger after I've gone to confession and communion when I'm forced to go from that little eternity of Mass back into the abrasive hell that is the modern world. It's like my soul is being lowered into boiling oil at times. So it takes a lot of little mental prayers and a lot of grace to even face it, at least for me.
    "The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque


     

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