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Author Topic: Rethinking Tolkien  (Read 7932 times)

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Offline Persto

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Re: Rethinking Tolkien
« Reply #60 on: December 09, 2023, 06:51:29 PM »
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  • Well said!

    First of all, let me properly welcome you to the forum, Persto. You seem to have a very lively spirit, and I like that. I presume you are young.

    Secondly, I think in the OP I said that I posted the two talks in case anyone else might benefit from them, even though I figured it might get sweaty in here. But my praise goes out to the CI Tolkien men, who have posted here and have conducted themselves like perfect gentlemen. Makes my heart happy.

    Thirdly, I've been getting heavily into the study of the desert Fathers and the ascetical practices. Only this week I picked up yet another gem of an axiom, and it squarely applies here. It goes like this: Say you have a cross - and lots of people even here have big crosses that they post about, like loneliness, etc.. And that's not to mention the huge crosses we all carry from the spits and blows of Vatican 2 and the modern world. I mean who isn't practically spent these days, right?

    If you deliberately seek to distract yourself from that cross, by entertaining yourself and engrossing yourself in things that please the emotions and the lower nature, you literally make your cross ten times heavier, you make your soul heavy and lethargic, you loose oodles and oodles of signal graces and merit, and you create more misery for yourself. By trying to deflect the blows of the hammer, you turn pain into the "agony of defeat" - of one kind or another.

    Emile wrote about spiritual retardation. Deflect the cross, go towards worldly distractions, and you are guilty of your own spiritual retardation.

    For the cross has come to you from the hands of God; and He has a reason for burdening you down with it; and that reason is your eternal salvation.

    Indeed, I picked up Tolkien, against stern warnings received in the past, with the conscious and deliberate intention of relieving severe grief from the last illnesses and recent loss of both my parents. From Tolkien I went on to Victorian literature. I did it deliberately because I couldn't get a handle on the grief. I got to the point where I was literally walking around with an audiobook in my ear all waking hours not devoted to prayer. I wanted to put my mind out of its misery. The result? Massive leakage of grace. Crippling case of acedia.

    Now I know the experimental truth of the warnings of my "cautioneers." Already the misery is lifting, the mood is lifting, and the tears are drying up. So, I'm really glad you got a benefit from this too!
    Thank you for the welcome, Simeon! My condolences to you on the recent death of both your parents.  I will keep them in my prayers!
    Good advice to keep in mind, about carrying the crosses we face, and the loss of God's grace when we try to distract ourselves from the cross. I'm glad you are sharing the struggle, in order to help others. 
    Persevere...
    Fear not, nor be any way discouraged- Duet.1:21

    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #61 on: December 09, 2023, 09:45:11 PM »
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  • When I read the biography of Tolkien I remember the story of how, in 1970, he visited his home church and the priest started spouting out English.  Tolkien rose up out of the pew and said, "This is supposed to be in Latin."  

    When I was in seminary I read all of Flannery O'Connor's short stories (about 30 of them), and while she is not in the same genre as a Tolkien or a C.S. Lewis, it might be interesting to start a different thread devoted to her.  I remember Dr White telling us that he thought O'Connor was the greatest American writer. 

    I appreciated this thread.  I love Tolkien for his poetry.  I would often find myself being immersed in a Tolkien story, finding a nice poem in the storyline, only to put the book down and savor the poetry.  "All that is gold does not glitter. Not all those who wonder are lost."
    Bryan Shepherd, M.A. Phil.
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    Offline rum

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    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #62 on: December 10, 2023, 07:35:42 AM »
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  • When I read the biography of Tolkien I remember the story of how, in 1970, he visited his home church and the priest started spouting out English.  Tolkien rose up out of the pew and said, "This is supposed to be in Latin." 

    When I was in seminary I read all of Flannery O'Connor's short stories (about 30 of them), and while she is not in the same genre as a Tolkien or a C.S. Lewis, it might be interesting to start a different thread devoted to her.  I remember Dr White telling us that he thought O'Connor was the greatest American writer.

    I appreciated this thread.  I love Tolkien for his poetry.  I would often find myself being immersed in a Tolkien story, finding a nice poem in the storyline, only to put the book down and savor the poetry.  "All that is gold does not glitter. Not all those who wonder are lost."

    I asked once on my Random αnтι-ѕємιтєs thread are there are any female novelists who aren't feminists and Mithrandylan unsurprisingly chimed in O'Connor. I found this strange view of hers:

    Quote


    Source:
    Flannery O'Connor: New Perspectives
    edited by Sura Prasad Rath, Mary Neff Shaw

    https://www.cathinfo.com/members-only/random-'αnтι-ѕємιтєs'/15/

    Not surprisingly I never recall her criticizing Jews. She was promoted strongly by the Jєωιѕн literary establishment, as have been practically all modern Catholic novelists taught in Catholic schools.
    Some would have people believe that I'm a deceiver because I've used various handles on different Catholic forums. They only know this because I've always offered such information, unprompted. Various troll accounts on FE. Ben on SuscipeDomine. Patches on ABLF 1.0 and TeDeum. GuitarPlucker, Busillis, HatchC, and Rum on Cathinfo.

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #63 on: December 10, 2023, 08:35:43 AM »
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    MITH: Tolkien did not have some irrational phobia of allegory. What Tolkien had was a cordial distaste for a very specific kind of allegory, i.e., the kind of allegory where there is only one possible meaning or interpretation of a figure, event, place, artifact, etc.

    That is correct. The priest did oversimplify; but he literally did not have time to present an in-depth study on every single one of his assertions. He was preaching, not writing a nuanced  and scholarly critique.

    Secondly, his oversimplification is only collateral to his thesis. It forms part of a multi-layered predication/introduction of the subject.

    Thirdly, Tolkien himself said, "I dislike allegory - the conscious and intentional allegory - yet any attempt to explain the purport of myth or fairytale must use allegorical language." (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien #131)

    Thus Tolkien admits to using allegorical language to convey meaning through the structure of mythology. Essentially he has combined a personally fabricated mythology - complete with a full-spectrum creation account and even “indigenous languages” - with allegory. To use his own word, this method is “tricksy.” It’s myth, it’s allegory, but not conventional myth or 1:1 allegory. And all the Catholic fans just want to say, “It’s Catholic.”

    Tolkien deftly synthesized allegory and mythology; and I think this is how he packed his punch, how he got a “big bang” (pun intended) out of his buck. And this is exactly why there is in his work a great potential for danger to Catholics. I’d go so far as to say that in synthesizing allegory, fantasy, and mythology – and in such a potent, well written, fascinating, verisimilar and all-encompassing conceptualization – he wields a kind of magic of his own, a power to cast real spells, to produce walking dream states in the unwary minds of men.

    There’s nothing simple about any of this. Yet we know that God is simple.

    Thus far, part 2 of my reply to you.

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #64 on: December 10, 2023, 10:22:31 AM »
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  • MITH: Tolkien did not have some irrational phobia of allegory. What Tolkien had was a cordial distaste for a very specific kind of allegory, i.e., the kind of allegory where there is only one possible meaning or interpretation of a figure, event, place, artifact, etc.

    That is correct. The priest did oversimplify; but he literally did not have time to present an in-depth study on every single one of his assertions. He was preaching, not writing a nuanced  and scholarly critique.

    Secondly, his oversimplification is only collateral to his thesis. It forms part of a multi-layered predication/introduction of the subject.

    Thirdly, Tolkien himself said, "I dislike allegory - the conscious and intentional allegory - yet any attempt to explain the purport of myth or fairytale must use allegorical language." (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien #131)

    Thus Tolkien admits to using allegorical language to convey meaning through the structure of mythology. Essentially he has combined a personally fabricated mythology - complete with a full-spectrum creation account and even “indigenous languages” - with allegory. To use his own word, this method is “tricksy.” It’s myth, it’s allegory, but not conventional myth or 1:1 allegory. And all the Catholic fans just want to say, “It’s Catholic.”

    Tolkien deftly synthesized allegory and mythology; and I think this is how he packed his punch, how he got a “big bang” (pun intended) out of his buck. And this is exactly why there is in his work a great potential for danger to Catholics. I’d go so far as to say that in synthesizing allegory, fantasy, and mythology – and in such a potent, well written, fascinating, verisimilar and all-encompassing conceptualization – he wields a kind of magic of his own, a power to cast real spells, to produce walking dream states in the unwary minds of men.

    There’s nothing simple about any of this. Yet we know that God is simple.

    Thus far, part 2 of my reply to you.

    Quote
    MITH: Aslan in The Chronicles of Narnia is a good example of this—Aslan is simply Christ, full stop. There’s nothing more or less to interpreting the character. In Tolkien’s view, fiction is better rendered not without allegory, but where the allegory has a more generalized character—for instance, he described LotR is a “fundamentally religious and Catholic work” and that it was also an allegory of power (Letters 142 & 186).

    Another thought comes to my mind. We know that the principal doctrine of the modernists is evolution. I haven’t discussed Paula’s criticisms of Tolkien yet. I plan to do that when replying to Hansel. Yet she discovers numerous examples of modernism and evolutionism, not only in Tolkien’s canon, but also in his own comments.

    Consider this idea of 1:1 allegory versus Tolkien’s concept of allegory, which you qualify as “more generalized.” May we replace "more generalized" with the word ‘ambiguous?’

    Ambiguous - capable of being understood in two or more possible senses or ways.

    Allegory - a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning.

    Can we agree that an entire phalanx of self-nominated Catholics (read: grifters) affirm that Vatican II is “a fundamentally religious and Catholic work?”

    Can we agree that the principal vector, i.e., linguistic structure, of the modernists is ambiguity (if not pure myth?)

    What does ambiguity cause? It causes division, because as many minds as apply themselves to the interpretation of ambiguous language, as many interpretations appear.

    And what does division cause? It causes distraction. And what does distraction cause? It causes dissipation. And what does dissipation cause? It causes sin and vice.

    Tolkien fabricates a mythological creation story and a false cosmogony/hierarchy of being. It screams gnosticism; and is unequivocally opposed to Genesis and Catholic Dogma. Such a thing causes the same kinds of alarms that went off after the false council. How does Tolkien reply, even in advance, to his critics? The same way the false Vatican II hierarchy responds to the alarms of Catholics. Novelty and ambiguity - and a penchant for maneuvering out of being pinned down.

    Certainly the Tolkien epic has created some division among Catholics; for instance when educated men and women try to warn people about it. Notice that the question never gets resolved. Just like the entire question of Vatican II never gets resolved. 

    Catholic linguistic structure is characterized by semantic and logical precision. Meaning is “yes, yes, no, no”  - a kind of 1:1 system of signification. You will say, “Good grief, Tolkien wrote fiction! He wasn't defining dogma!” 

    And I would say, “Yes, and why then does anyone call LOTR “a fundamentally religious and Catholic work?”

    I would say this also. There’s a wonderful collection of truly Catholic, and even non-Catholic fiction out there that doesn’t create division. Why do people argue about Tolkien’s books, but not those of other Catholic authors? Generally speaking, when Catholics argue with each other, it’s about integral truth. I believe that the divisive nature of Tolkien's work, alone, is a red flag. 

    The Silmarillion is blasphemous and out of bounds. Calling it fiction does not rehabilitate or justify it. And LOTR emanates from it, as pus from an infection. Gorgeous captivating pus, but pus nevertheless.   


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #65 on: December 10, 2023, 11:46:00 AM »
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    Why do people argue about Tolkien’s books
    I don’t know why people like you do such.  Part of it is a false elevation of the work, and then you see the dangers of the elevation, so you must tear it down. 

    Most people don’t elevate it to begin with.  They take it for a work of fiction, mixed with catholic symbolism.  Thus, there’s no need to “rehabilitate” something that was never viewed as salvific or religious.  It’s simply a fantasy story.

    The fact that you compare it to V2, and use language such as blasphemous and heretical, shows that you give these books way more meaning than originally intended.  The problem is not the story; it’s the reader. 

    Offline EWPJ

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    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #66 on: December 10, 2023, 12:43:45 PM »
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  • Alright!  That's it...I've had enough!  It's time to clean house!

    (EWPJ storms into the ring and begins picking up and tossing hobbits all over the place....Frodo lands on PV and Simeon simultaneously knocking them both down to the canvas.)

    (PV and Simeon start reaching for Frodo's ring but EWPJ is on the top rope and goes for a full on body splash landing on both fighters....SMASH!  Frodo rolls out of the ring.)

    (Before EWPJ can go for the pin all of the sudden somehow J.R. Tolkien enters the ring and smashes EWPJ in the dome with his volumuous works.  EWPJ crashes to the canvas under the sheer heft of his books!)

    (All fighters are down...the referee begins the count....1...2....3....4....5....all of the sudden Gandolf enters the ring and distracts the referee!  During the fuss EWPJ manages to get up and gets a lighter that was thrown into the ring by a fan and proceeds to set Gandolfs robe alight! The pagan "wizard" is now on fire and proceeds back to the locker room area to try to put himself out.)

    (The referee has lost control of this one and a no contest is declared and no one wins but the fans.  THE END.)  

    Offline Grace

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    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #67 on: December 10, 2023, 12:53:12 PM »
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  • Alright!  That's it...I've had enough!  It's time to clean house!

    (EWPJ storms into the ring and begins picking up and tossing hobbits all over the place....Frodo lands on PV and Simeon simultaneously knocking them both down to the canvas.)

    (PV and Simeon start reaching for Frodo's ring but EWPJ is on the top rope and goes for a full on body splash landing on both fighters....SMASH!  Frodo rolls out of the ring.)

    (Before EWPJ can go for the pin all of the sudden somehow J.R. Tolkien enters the ring and smashes EWPJ in the dome with his volumuous works.  EWPJ crashes to the canvas under the sheer heft of his books!)

    (All fighters are down...the referee begins the count....1...2....3....4....5....all of the sudden Gandolf enters the ring and distracts the referee!  During the fuss EWPJ manages to get up and gets a lighter that was thrown into the ring by a fan and proceeds to set Gandolfs robe alight! The pagan "wizard" is now on fire and proceeds back to the locker room area to try to put himself out.)

    (The referee has lost control of this one and a no contest is declared and no one wins but the fans.  THE END.) 
    :laugh1::laugh2:


    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #68 on: December 10, 2023, 01:22:31 PM »
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  • Alright!  That's it...I've had enough!  It's time to clean house!

    (EWPJ storms into the ring and begins picking up and tossing hobbits all over the place....Frodo lands on PV and Simeon simultaneously knocking them both down to the canvas.)

    (PV and Simeon start reaching for Frodo's ring but EWPJ is on the top rope and goes for a full on body splash landing on both fighters....SMASH!  Frodo rolls out of the ring.)

    (Before EWPJ can go for the pin all of the sudden somehow J.R. Tolkien enters the ring and smashes EWPJ in the dome with his volumuous works.  EWPJ crashes to the canvas under the sheer heft of his books!)

    (All fighters are down...the referee begins the count....1...2....3....4....5....all of the sudden Gandolf enters the ring and distracts the referee!  During the fuss EWPJ manages to get up and gets a lighter that was thrown into the ring by a fan and proceeds to set Gandolfs robe alight! The pagan "wizard" is now on fire and proceeds back to the locker room area to try to put himself out.)

    (The referee has lost control of this one and a no contest is declared and no one wins but the fans.  THE END.) 

    Ah, ah, ah..... CS Lewis enters the ring, grabs the mic and declares Pax the hands down winner! 

    Pax breathes a sigh of relief. No more of Simeons's posts to contend with. 

    Simeon goes back to her kitchen to peruse recipes for Christmas struffoli. 

    Now, really, THE END!!

    :laugh1::laugh2::laugh1::laugh2::cowboy:

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #69 on: December 10, 2023, 03:04:45 PM »
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  • Simeon, just want to say that some of your points are valid, as are the priest's.  I just think some of them are overboard.  No hard feelings.

    Offline Joe Cupertino

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    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #70 on: December 10, 2023, 05:12:14 PM »
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  • That is correct. The priest did oversimplify; but he literally did not have time to present an in-depth study on every single one of his assertions. He was preaching, not writing a nuanced  and scholarly critique.

    Secondly, his oversimplification is only collateral to his thesis. It forms part of a multi-layered predication/introduction of the subject.

    Thirdly, Tolkien himself said, "I dislike allegory - the conscious and intentional allegory - yet any attempt to explain the purport of myth or fairytale must use allegorical language." (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien #131)

    Thus Tolkien admits to using allegorical language to convey meaning through the structure of mythology. Essentially he has combined a personally fabricated mythology - complete with a full-spectrum creation account and even “indigenous languages” - with allegory. To use his own word, this method is “tricksy.” It’s myth, it’s allegory, but not conventional myth or 1:1 allegory. And all the Catholic fans just want to say, “It’s Catholic.”

    Tolkien deftly synthesized allegory and mythology; and I think this is how he packed his punch, how he got a “big bang” (pun intended) out of his buck. And this is exactly why there is in his work a great potential for danger to Catholics. I’d go so far as to say that in synthesizing allegory, fantasy, and mythology – and in such a potent, well written, fascinating, verisimilar and all-encompassing conceptualization – he wields a kind of magic of his own, a power to cast real spells, to produce walking dream states in the unwary minds of men.

    There’s nothing simple about any of this. Yet we know that God is simple.

    Thus far, part 2 of my reply to you.
    The premise here is flawed. Tolkien doesn't say myth or fairytale must use allegory; he says an attempted explanation of the purport of myth or fairytale must use allegorical language. He was referring to the allegorical language he was about to use in attempting to explain what his work is about, e.g. "All this stuff is mainly concerned with Fall, Morality, and the Machine..."

    He says the less allegory is used in the story, the more allegorical language will need to be used in the interpretations, and vice versa:  “And, of course, the more ‘life’ a story has the more readily will it be susceptible of allegorical interpretations while the better a deliberate allegory is made the more nearly will it be acceptable just as a story.”  He is forced to use allegorical language in the explanation he gives in the letter for the very fact that he did not use deliberate allegory in the story.


    Offline Persto

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    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #71 on: December 10, 2023, 06:14:02 PM »
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  • I asked once on my Random αnтι-ѕємιтєs thread are there are any female novelists who aren't feminists and Mithrandylan unsurprisingly chimed in O'Connor. I found this strange view of hers:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/members-only/random-'αnтι-ѕємιтєs'/15/

    Not surprisingly I never recall her criticizing Jews. She was promoted strongly by the Jєωιѕн literary establishment, as have been practically all modern Catholic novelists taught in Catholic schools.
    Very interesting!
    Persevere...
    Fear not, nor be any way discouraged- Duet.1:21

    Offline Persto

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    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #72 on: December 10, 2023, 06:18:45 PM »
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  • And what does division cause? It causes distraction. And what does distraction cause? It causes dissipation. And what does dissipation cause? It causes sin and vice.
    Very good observation!
    Persevere...
    Fear not, nor be any way discouraged- Duet.1:21

    Offline Steve

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    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #73 on: December 10, 2023, 10:32:57 PM »
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  • The Silmarillion is blasphemous and out of bounds. Calling it fiction does not rehabilitate or justify it. And LOTR emanates from it, as pus from an infection. Gorgeous captivating pus, but pus nevertheless. 
    Anytime you see use of magic portrayed in a positive light: "Fsst! [Fr. Ionnes Petrus' sound effect] Throw it out!"

    Gandalf's glowing staff, gleaming swords when orcs are near, spells cast on doors to open them.... all of these represent a wish to conciliate hidden powers.  

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #74 on: December 11, 2023, 08:44:25 AM »
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  • Quote
    Gandalf's glowing staff, gleaming swords when orcs are near, spells cast on doors to open them
    Not necessarily.  If someone from the Middle Ages were transported to our times, they'd confuse technology with magic (i.e. glowing flashlights, cell phones and punch-key door entry).  Can't contribute something you don't understand to magic.  Harry Potter overly uses spells, witchcraft and such.  Tolkien uses the ancient languages in replacement of spells.  Big difference.