Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6

Author Topic: Rethinking Tolkien  (Read 7947 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Simeon

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1315
  • Reputation: +862/-83
  • Gender: Female
Rethinking Tolkien
« on: December 06, 2023, 11:37:06 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • I’m not trying to start a fight. Really, I’m not.

    But in case anyone out there might be benefited by the two talks I’m including here, it’s worth the potential hostility. 

    My observable, measurable fruit of about two or more years of extreme immersion in Tolkien – before then I actually avoided him on advice of smart Catholics – was a case of acedia that might make even St. John Cassian raise an eyebrow. The spiritual paralysis, the explosion of emotion, the inability to vacuum a floor – is one for the books.

    That’s why I went to the desert Fathers – to be cured. And now, about one month in, I have received a signal grace from God – in fact only days ago - that made me understand one serious cause of my problem – LOTR.

    I was almost living in the cursed thing. It’s allure, it’s beauty, it’s resonation with every fiber of my being, its powerful hold on my mind and emotions – sheesh! The damned thing is a soul whisperer.

    Yesterday I remembered these two talks, which I listened to many years ago. I re-listened and, boy did they speak to me about a lot of things.

    If anyone bothers to listen to these talks, and has ever been oppressed by sloth, acedia, escapism, or depression, pay close attention to what the priest says about “mystic flights” in part 2.

    Will I miss LOTR? Oh yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Will I kick it to the curb for my soul? Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





    Logged

    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4064
    • Reputation: +2402/-524
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #1 on: December 06, 2023, 11:59:49 AM »
  • Thanks!11
  • No Thanks!0
    • Immoderate use of any work of fiction can cause someone to be disconnected from reality, or indulge in escapism and avoidance of duty. The problem is not in the fiction itself but in its immoderate use.
    Logged

    Offline TheRealMcCoy

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1332
    • Reputation: +951/-197
    • Gender: Female
    • The Thread Killer
    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #2 on: December 06, 2023, 12:16:38 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • This is an interesting topic. My youngest son is prone to this particular character flaw. But I observed this in him at an extremely young age. He also is drawn to fantasy literature. I discovered years ago that the solution was to enforce work on him.   He is an adult but he lives with me and I only have one rule for his recreational pursuits-- they must not be immoral.  As long as he goes to work, pays his bills, and does the chores around here that I ask of him I don't comment on his hobbies anymore.   For his age he is extremely responsible.

    I don't believe there's anything about Tolkien's work that draws people in to this flaw if it's not already there. The same thing could be said about social media or video gaming. But there are examples of people who can use both who do not waste time on it or use them as an escape from reality.  I still appreciate this thread however.
    Logged

    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 32544
    • Reputation: +28761/-569
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #3 on: December 06, 2023, 12:33:50 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: TheRealMcCoy on December 06, 2023, 12:16:38 PM
    I don't believe there's anything about Tolkien's work that draws people in to this flaw if it's not already there. The same thing could be said about social media or video gaming. But there are examples of people who can use both who do not waste time on it or use them as an escape from reality.

    and this

    Quote
    Immoderate use of any work of fiction can cause someone to be disconnected from reality, or indulge in escapism and avoidance of duty. The problem is not in the fiction itself but in its immoderate use.

    You could say the same about many good, lawful things. Alcohol for example. I'm not into it myself, but Catholics are allowed to imbibe in moderation. But some men in every age abuse it, to the point of becoming alcoholic. Must we ban alcohol or say it's evil? No. We as Catholics can even sell it for a living, promoting it to some extent. But if you have an addictive personality or other voids/baggage in your life looking to be filled with something -- then watch out.
    Logged
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com

    Offline Simeon

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1315
    • Reputation: +862/-83
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #4 on: December 06, 2023, 01:06:26 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • I truly appreciate the replies, especially as they are friendly and not hostile. Thank you!

    I understand all the rebuttals, but they do not reach the explicit and well-docuмented points made by the priest. What I'd really like, is to hear thoughts and rebuttals on his arguments and examples - which are learned and quite stunning. Talk about thought provoking!

    It's a lot to ask people to invest over two hours in media these days. But I strongly believe what this priest brings forward is quite worthy of consideration and discussion.

    Real McCoy, as far as fruits from me offloading my cache, it's too soon to tell; and I had already begun to improve as soon as I resorted to the desert. That being said, I was able to add back into my daily horarium, immediately upon shedding, daily housework; whereas that issue has been quite resistant, even to "solitude and sand." I've now got a splendidly clean bedroom, bathroom and kitchen floor! :laugh1::laugh1::laugh1:

    That is a good point about our being predisposed to certain vices, however, the problems the demonstration presents are objective. He does not approach the question from the standpoint of what immersion in this literature can do to your soul, except accidentally. He is pointing out serious and objective problems with the work itself. 

    Again, it's hard to discuss it unless people familiarize themselves with his points.

    Thank you all!


    Logged

    Offline TheRealMcCoy

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1332
    • Reputation: +951/-197
    • Gender: Female
    • The Thread Killer
    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #5 on: December 06, 2023, 03:42:05 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • I'm sorry to say this priest's condescending tone of voice annoys me.

    I didn't find any great revelations in what he said. Doesn't everyone know that Tolkien's works are pagan and gnostic? I go back to my original assertion that people with a particular disposition are at risk. Possibly melancholic personalities who are already prone to inaction and being "in their head" too much.  Thankfully the Church has many approved mystical works that can be substituted.

    Simeon,  if this priest's sermon helps you then God bless you.  We all have our cross to bear.
    Logged

    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4578
    • Reputation: +5299/-449
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #6 on: December 06, 2023, 03:58:57 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • The videos in question, are these the same essay/presentation that made the rounds on Rorate Coeli awhile back?
    Logged
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline jen51

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1836
    • Reputation: +1910/-70
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #7 on: December 06, 2023, 04:26:10 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Mithrandylan on December 06, 2023, 03:58:57 PM
    The videos in question, are these the same essay/presentation that made the rounds on Rorate Coeli awhile back?
    Was waiting for Mith to chime in on this. :popcorn: I always appreciate his observations on LOTR. 
    Logged
    Religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father, is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their tribulation: and to keep one's self unspotted from this world.
    ~James 1:27

    Offline Simeon

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1315
    • Reputation: +862/-83
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #8 on: December 06, 2023, 04:54:10 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Mithrandylan on December 06, 2023, 03:58:57 PM
    The videos in question, are these the same essay/presentation that made the rounds on Rorate Coeli awhile back?

    I'd say it's likely. The priest is an indult man, and I know him personally. He sent me the talks and I listened to his audio files many years ago. I went looking for it on youtube yesterday, and found it on his channel, and it said "8 years ago." 

    When I first listened to it, I was "the choir," and also a Tolkien virgin, and so I listened but without trying to discern for myself. I had seen the movies but had never read the books. I was warned about them in the early 2000's. Thus I gave the priest a thumbs up email and went my way. 

    But curiosity got the better of me a few years ago; and I dived in; and I must say, LOTR is quite an ecstatic adventure. 

    My recent acedia problem was different than my normal vice template. It was really severe, and very concerning to me; and frankly I had plenty of other explanations for it. It's only since I started praying differently, and began receiving actual counsels from God in my soul - on various corrections He wants me to make - that this came up. 

    On the grace I received alone, I threw out my entire LOTR DVD collection. Afterwards I remembered the priest's talk, and wanted to hear it again and listen with a different set of ears. 

    I found what he said so intriguing that I decided to post. I was under the impression that most Catholics read Catholicism into the books, and hotly deny that they are gnostic and pagan. The conferences have for their sole purpose dispelling that myth. Pardon the pun. 

    Since you are intellectual and a LOTR fan, can you tell me your opinion of the books? Are they Catholic or gnostic? I'm not interested in whether or not they are good for the soul. That's subjective. I'm interested in the objective question presented and answered by the priest. 

    Thanks Mith, and God bless!


    Logged

    Offline TheRealMcCoy

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1332
    • Reputation: +951/-197
    • Gender: Female
    • The Thread Killer
    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #9 on: December 06, 2023, 05:14:48 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • 20 years ago I became obsessed with the book  "Last Dinner on The Titanic" after seeing the exhibit in a museum.  I would spend numerous hours in the middle of the night, everynight, reading the book and planning my own Titanic dinner party.   I had 4 spiral ring notebooks filled with pages of menu plans. After seeking professional help I discovered I was suffering from seasonal affective disorder rather than the book having a spiritual effect on me.  I recovered after about 3 weeks and have no interest in that book or the Titanic anymore. I have no lingering symptoms.

    So Simeon, I can relate somewhat. 
    Logged

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 11975
    • Reputation: +7525/-2254
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #10 on: December 06, 2023, 06:06:40 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote
    I go back to my original assertion that people with a particular disposition are at risk.
    This ^^^.  Since the dawn of time, people who have addictive personalities get addicted (to all manner of things).  I was told a story about pre-V2 priest who said he had to stop playing chess because he started to obsess about moves and strategy, even while saying Mass.  It was too much of a temptation/distraction. 

    The Harry Potter books were written by a witch and are satanic.  LOTR was written by a Catholic and are slightly-good, to neutral.  I think it's good (but not necessary) for children to see the battle of good vs evil in mediums which are NOT catholic (i.e. LOTR, Star Wars) because it helps to broaden their horizons and to experience Catholic truths in non-catholic things, which they will have to navigate when they are adults (seeing as most of the world is not catholic).

    *Some* people can get addicted to sports, exercise, reading, social media, internet, games, even prayer.  Most people won't.
    Logged

    Offline Simeon

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1315
    • Reputation: +862/-83
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #11 on: December 06, 2023, 06:09:08 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: TheRealMcCoy on December 06, 2023, 05:14:48 PM
    20 years ago I became obsessed with the book  "Last Dinner on The Titanic" after seeing the exhibit in a museum.  I would spend numerous hours in the middle of the night, everynight, reading the book and planning my own Titanic dinner party.  I had 4 spiral ring notebooks filled with pages of menu plans. After seeking professional help I discovered I was suffering from seasonal affective disorder rather than the book having a spiritual effect on me.  I recovered after about 3 weeks and have no interest in that book or the Titanic anymore. I have no lingering symptoms.

    So Simeon, I can relate somewhat.

    LOL!!

    I’ll see your Titanic and raise you a Hercules…..…..

    Your hilarious story reminds me of one of my own.

    Back in college, I contracted a Grade 5 infatuation for a beautiful young Greek American. We hung out for a time, and I was so entranced by his person that I decided to take up the Greek classics, to “understand” him!! HA!!!

    I not only read all the epic poems, but got into other readings, and finally actually began the painfully boring histories of Herodotus!

    There we two were. Him with his bologna sandwiches, koolaid mustaches, and insipid acoustic guitar strummings, and me with a burgeoning intellectual beauty! LOL!!!

    He never knew I was studying up on his culture. I kept it my secret. By the grace of the classics, my newfound knowledge transported me right out of the infatuation. I mean what is a koolaid mustache compared to a veritable pantheon of gorgeous gods? LOL!!!!  When I transferred to another college, I left him, all crusts, croons and FD&C red, with quite an education.  :laugh1::laugh1::laugh1:
    Logged

    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4578
    • Reputation: +5299/-449
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #12 on: December 06, 2023, 06:58:00 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-fantasy-writing-of-tolkien-was.html?m=1

    ^^This is what I was referring to--Simeon, it's the same material, yes?

    I remember reading this essay/presentation once or twice over the years. 

    I don't have time at the moment to write up my thoughts (I think--or hope-- they might already be somewhere in my posting history), but I'll follow up with them. 

    Gotta have the annual Tolkien talk :)
    Logged
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline TheRealMcCoy

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1332
    • Reputation: +951/-197
    • Gender: Female
    • The Thread Killer
    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #13 on: December 06, 2023, 07:32:10 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Simeon on December 06, 2023, 06:09:08 PM
    LOL!!

    I’ll see your Titanic and raise you a Hercules…..…..

    Your hilarious story reminds me of one of my own.

    Back in college, I contracted a Grade 5 infatuation for a beautiful young Greek American. We hung out for a time, and I was so entranced by his person that I decided to take up the Greek classics, to “understand” him!! HA!!!

    I not only read all the epic poems, but got into other readings, and finally actually began the painfully boring histories of Herodotus!

    There we two were. Him with his bologna sandwiches, koolaid mustaches, and insipid acoustic guitar strummings, and me with a burgeoning intellectual beauty! LOL!!!

    He never knew I was studying up on his culture. I kept it my secret. By the grace of the classics, my newfound knowledge transported me right out of the infatuation. I mean what is a koolaid mustache compared to a veritable pantheon of gorgeous gods? LOL!!!!  When I transferred to another college, I left him, all crusts, croons and FD&C red, with quite an education.  :laugh1::laugh1::laugh1:
     Your sense of humor is delightful!

     I have a question for you.  Do you believe there's any prophecy encoded in the Tolkien books?  Or any hidden truths?  I'm curious as to what spawned your interest.
    Logged

    Offline Simeon

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1315
    • Reputation: +862/-83
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #14 on: December 06, 2023, 07:40:48 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Mithrandylan on December 06, 2023, 06:58:00 PM
    https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-fantasy-writing-of-tolkien-was.html?m=1

    ^^This is what I was referring to--Simeon, it's the same material, yes?

    I remember reading this essay/presentation once or twice over the years.

    I don't have time at the moment to write up my thoughts (I think--or hope-- they might already be somewhere in my posting history), but I'll follow up with them.

    Gotta have the annual Tolkien talk :)

    That's it, Mith! Take yer time!
    Logged
    Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6
    « previous next »