Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: trickster on July 07, 2014, 08:33:08 AM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkmqJlDyVe8
The video touches on a deep wound that countered the meaning of the traditional church to be effective in the evangelization of the world's peoples. The Residential School Experience in Canada is a major barrier to the reconciliation of the church and what the traditional church did and today's indigenous peoples.
Your thoughts?
Bruce Ferguson
trickster
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL_OnGjuImk
The Residential School Experience is very similar in Australia. This is partly why an unchecked black and white world view is so dangerous to the lives of children and others living on this planet.
Traditional Catholics and Conservative Catholics within the conciliar church must exercise great discretion in applying a world view that is narrow and restrictive. I am not talking about relativism but certainly we should not limit the work of the Holy Spirit be so narrowly defined as to deny the basic world views of others.
Thoughts?
Bruce Ferguson
Trickster
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=761-6BRYh1U
There is a theology in this rap song; it is a theology based out of struggle, out of community, out of values of respect for the earth, each other and the appreciation of daily life. It is also born out of the residential and colonialization experience.
Do you sense a connection with that Aboriginal theology and traditional catholic teaching, spirituality and views. I see some very Catholic potential. The video shows more where the hearts and energy of our people are and it is from this place that conversation between traditionals have to start with respect to talking to indigenous peoples.
Thoughts.
Trickster
Bruce Ferguson
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The Residential School Experience in Canada is a major barrier to the reconciliation of the church and what the traditional church did and today's indigenous peoples.
It seems to be an illusory barrier thrown up by liberal victim politics and the grievance industry, in a post-revolutionary culture where it pays, literally, politically and socially, to take potshots at the mean old Catholic Church.
The "truth and reconciliation" projects which provide the raw material for the mythical “Residential School Experience” rely on a fatally flawed methodology where testimony of childhood memories is taken as sacred truth (unless of course the memory is favourable to the white man: then it is regarded as an exception to be swept under the rug). It's well-known to psychologists that "traumatic childhood memories,” especially when recalled under suggestion, are prone to misinterpretation, exaggeration, and even fabrication, all of which does not even touch on the existence of greedy or ill-willed partisans in Aboriginal politics, of which you and I know there are plenty. I don't thereby deny all problems of cruelty at Catholic schools. Yes, there were such problems, far too many of them, and if it means something to you, I am sorry for them and the scandal they cause. The point, however, is that “truthful” investigation cannot be had with such a partial process.
Furthermore, “truth and reconciliation” projects always take for granted that the extirpation of paganism ("Aboriginal spirituality") was a grave injustice, since they conceive of religion not as a matter of truth or falsehood but of subjective conscience, a proposition condemned by the Catholic Church. They therefore obscure the most fundamental fact of the case, namely that the schools existed for the sake of the Aboriginals' spiritual good. Unlike Catholic residential schools, the modern politics of victimhood and the grievance industry do the Aboriginals the greatest possible disservice by seeking to separate them from true religion and thus all true hope of betterment.
But admitting that the policy of assimilation was in some respects excessive (in for instance the loss or near-loss of many native languages), few people consider that the Catholic residential schools, for most of their history, operated under the aegis of the WASP (read: Judaeo-Masonic) federal government that produced the Indian Act. Even fewer people consider that the schools offered conditions (food, clothing, shelter, skills training) that were frequently unavailable in the students' home reserves, many of which were already plagued by hopelessness, alcoholism and dysfunction as a result of WASP policies. The point is, very few people grasp to what an extent the Catholic Church made the best of circuмstances that were not of her invention.
I would someday like to see a competent historical study of how Catholic colonists under their own steam, prior to WASP domination of the continent, interacted with natives. From what I can tell, the Catholics where possible attempted cooperation, conversion (of course), and respect, as can be seen for example in the early and lasting friendship of the French Acadians with the Micmac nation. We do not see there the attrition alternating with cultural assimilation that was favoured by the English.
In any case, the true history of the Catholic Church in North America during colonization, when it is written, will have nothing to do with "truth and reconciliation" shams nor with pandering to a neo-pagan “Aboriginal spirituality.” I pray for the day when Aboriginals see, as so many of their ancestors did, that the Holy Church with her Sacred Tradition is no alien colonizer but their true home. We shall all be much stronger for it.
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In the pre-Vatican II days, when the Catholic Church came into an indigenous area and brought the means of salvation to a people living in darkness, I think the proper response is a very loud thank you. I remember watching a movie based on the Old West where, if an indian warrier was killed in battle, the very first thing the indians did was loot everything away from his mother because he no longer had anyone to protect him. I would be very happy to hear that this practice was stamped out by the Catholic Church! At the end of that movie, when it was time for the tribe to move on, no one looked after that elderly woman and she was left to die alone.
Post-Vatican II, the Conciliar Church embraces the inherent evils in these people. There is a meanness in some of these primitive cultures that needs to be rooted out and the post-Vatican II church is embracing them. That's a grave spiritual error.
The Traditional Catholic Church was established by Our Lord Jesus Christ. These indigenous people are in need of salvation. That's where the two meet.
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Graham and Captain McQuigg.. now your responses are the kinds of responses I am talking about. Your critical analysis of what I believe is exactly that "outing from my comfort zone" that I was talking about in earlier threads. It's great. Bellisimo as I think the Italians say.
I also agree with many of your points around victim mindsets...psychological assessments of traumatic childhood events...reconciliation is indeed a big business...I also call for a balancing of the story.
The fact is that residential schools did exist, being removed forcibly when you are 5 or 6 years old for any nation or peoples would be traumatic and the highness or holiness in which most pre-council catholic held their clergy only to be impacted by the human nature and sinfulness of that clergy as humans does a lot - even inter-generationally- to destroy one's faith....
Now there are two opposing narratives of this history and sometimes narratives are inspired to support a dualistic conclusion. I support the idea of looking at what worked (i.e. the purpose of evangelization), what didn't (the methodology of the residential schools denying cultural tools such as language, imagery, etc. that other orders such as the Oblates on Vancouver Island in their invention of a teaching stick modelled on the traditional talking stick that showed the salvation history as understood and taught by our church. This is clearly a failure of the residential schools and their catholic authorities....what are the strengths and weaknesses of each narrative so that we can move away from a politically inspired retelling of this story towards a retelling that is based on a more balanced exercise in telling the truth.
I need more time to examine the responses and I promise to get back to you.. but I leave you with these initial thoughts that come form the top of my head.
Trickster
Bruce Ferguson
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Guys..what did you think of the lyrics of the rap song "Thank You God" by Warrior... :)
Bruce
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Guys..what did you think of the lyrics of the rap song "Thank You God" by Warrior... :)
Bruce
I don't know. I don't listen to rap songs.
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Guys..what did you think of the lyrics of the rap song "Thank You God" by Warrior... :)
Bruce
I don't know. I don't listen to rap songs.
Hi Mato...I was asking Captn McGuigg and the other poster actaully... but thanks for the answer...the context of the request was the lyrics of this indigenous rap group and God...as a common basis to talk about an bridging theology between indigenous spirituality and catholic teaching...stuff like that...
Bruce
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Europe went through a similar process. Many ancient religions and cultures were destroyed when Europe converted to Christianity.
Neo-pagans sympathize with what happened to the Native Americans. They believe the same happened to their pagan ancestors in Europe. To them Christians are oppressors and destroyers of cultures. Wiccans and such repeat this ad nauseam.
This is certainly not how Christians view history but it is how the enemies of Christendom want us to view history.
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"On the rap song"
Christians don't need to adapt to the mainstream culture or resort to any other lame gimmicks to gain converts.
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Trickster (Bruce),
Would it possible for you to post the lyrics to that song here so we could read it?
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I also agree with many of your points around victim mindsets...psychological assessments of traumatic childhood events...reconciliation is indeed a big business...I also call for a balancing of the story.
I'm glad to hear that. An important part of the balance will be to sort Catholic approaches to instruction from non-Catholic ones, with special reference to how the post-confederation Indian Act directed and systematized the school system.
The fact is that residential schools did exist, being removed forcibly when you are 5 or 6 years old for any nation or peoples would be traumatic and the highness or holiness in which most pre-council catholic held their clergy only to be impacted by the human nature and sinfulness of that clergy as humans does a lot - even inter-generationally- to destroy one's faith....
School was only made mandatory for Aboriginals in the late 19th Century, following Confederation and therefore under English leadership. (The Catholic leadership did not choose this system, but worked within it of necessity.) It should be recognized that prior to that time, some Aboriginal families did actually choose European-style schooling for their children, whether in day schools or boarding schools, Catholic or otherwise. It's likely that even after Confederation and the mandating of education, many Aboriginal children were not "removed forcibly" but were sent more or less willingly. We should also keep in mind, for the sake of balance, that residential schools were less common than day schools.
For these reasons, the idea that the Catholic Church sought to forcibly remove Aboriginal children from their homes is therefore very skewed.
Now there are two opposing narratives of this history and sometimes narratives are inspired to support a dualistic conclusion. I support the idea of looking at what worked (i.e. the purpose of evangelization), what didn't (the methodology of the residential schools denying cultural tools such as language, imagery, etc. that other orders such as the Oblates on Vancouver Island in their invention of a teaching stick modelled on the traditional talking stick that showed the salvation history as understood and taught by our church.
That reminds me of the Two Roads Map used by the Jesuits among the Sioux.
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Trickster,
You need to renounce all non-Catholic beliefs and embrace the Catholic faith because it is the Deposit of Faith handed to us by Our Lord Jesus Christ. You can't play both sides of the fence - that would be the worst of both worlds.
Now, I do realize this is difficult today when you may consider the Novus Ordo to be Catholic when it is in fact Conciliar and a blend of Catholicism with Masonic beliefs and a small dose of Jєωιѕн ideas all mixed together. A person can only be mixed up if they embrace the Novus Ordo. But you are a bright guy and you can see through this if you try.
You should pray that the Native Americans are bestowed with the sanctifying grace to seek out, and find, the Traditional Catholic Church. That is what you should spend your time on.
Now, if in your secular life, you are an attorney who represents Indians, then good luck but mention to your clients that they should seek out a Traditional Catholic Church also.
Hopefully, there is an SSPX or CMRI or SSPV chapel in your area.
These ideas of holding on to grievances, real or imagined, only leads a person to anger and that anger can become uncontained thereby leading a person to hatred. This is all wasted energy. Dedicate a decade of the rosary to the American Indians and place it all in God's Hands.
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Trickster,
You need to renounce all non-Catholic beliefs and embrace the Catholic faith because it is the Deposit of Faith handed to us by Our Lord Jesus Christ. You can't play both sides of the fence - that would be the worst of both worlds.
Now, I do realize this is difficult today when you may consider the Novus Ordo to be Catholic when it is in fact Conciliar and a blend of Catholicism with Masonic beliefs and a small dose of Jєωιѕн ideas all mixed together. A person can only be mixed up if they embrace the Novus Ordo. But you are a bright guy and you can see through this if you try.
You should pray that the Native Americans are bestowed with the sanctifying grace to seek out, and find, the Traditional Catholic Church. That is what you should spend your time on.
Now, if in your secular life, you are an attorney who represents Indians, then good luck but mention to your clients that they should seek out a Traditional Catholic Church also.
Hopefully, there is an SSPX or CMRI or SSPV chapel in your area.
These ideas of holding on to grievances, real or imagined, only leads a person to anger and that anger can become uncontained thereby leading a person to hatred. This is all wasted energy. Dedicate a decade of the rosary to the American Indians and place it all in God's Hands.
Excellent advice, Capt. I hope that Trickster will take it to heart and reflect on what you've written.
I'd like to add a couple of things. I know that really bad things happened in some of the Catholic residential schools for Indians. But the dominant Protestant culture should also be considered. Is the idea of residential schools for Indians really a Catholic construct? I don't think that it is.
Compare the situation with the Indian population in Mexico when it was first settled by the Spanish. The policy there, if I recall correctly, was to integrate the Indians into the greater culture. Hence, there were Indians who worked in the government very early on. I don't think that they were thought of as being inferior (though there were cases of slavery of Indians). I think that most Mexicans are part Indian due to the integration of the native population into greater society. There's a good book written on the history of Mexico called, "Blood-drenched Altars." It gives a history of Mexico from a truly Catholic perspective.
Trickster, please also keep in mind that there were those Catholic religious and clergy who treated the American Indians well, such as Fr. Junipero Serra, and the North American Martyrs, as well as others. One of my favorite saints is St. Kateri. She was treated well by her confessors, and was a wonderful example of the holiness which some of the Indians in those days were capable of achieving. St Kateri wasn't the only example of holiness - there were others, too, who haven't been canonized.
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Trickster (Bruce),
Would it possible for you to post the lyrics to that song here so we could read it?
Sorry for the delay in posting the lyrics; here they are :)
Thank You God
Written by War Party Copyright 2004
Music composed by Rex Smallboy
Verse 1 written by Rex Smallboy
Woke up this morning said thank you God
Thank you for letting me see this day
I feel blessed in your presence just being alive
To witness the wonders that you have made
I give you thanks for the gifts of life and love
For my wife and son for the powwow drum
For this land I see for this air I breath
I thank you Grandfather for the sky and see
For my time of need for the strong and weak
For the thing I fear and for the times I dream
For my friends in life and for the ones who teach
I’m thankful grandfather for the gift of speech
Chorus x2
Woke up this morning said thank you God
Thank you God, thank you God
Verse 2 written by Cynthia Smallboy
We used to praise the living sun
We knew her days seen no rest
Underneath the gracious moon
While our tired bodies slept
Destiny came to pass
Now were living what is left
I want to thank you for the struggles
And I’m humbled by each breath
I want thank you for the takers
Know they showed me how to give
I want to thank you for my losses
To appreciate my wins
Thank you for death
Designed to show me how to live
I’m thankful I am weak
Ever humbled by your strength
Thankful I was poor
Ever rich with out bank
Thankful when I’m down
You’re my old and dearest friend
Thankful when I’m bad
You see good lies with
Thankful I had no dad
You and mom was all I’d need
And still you’re ever giving
Give me love and our seed
Lastly I want to thank you
Cause your love is all we need
Chorus x 2
Verse 3 written by Thane Saddleback
Yo I’m thank for God giving me this life
And giving life to my son and my wife
I ‘m for the simple fact that we’re living
Positivity we’re bringing
Yo I’m thanking our forefathers
For their decisions my people listen
Every day families are dissen
But still I’m thankful cause I know
We all could change our positions
Keep our traditions flowing strong
The nations will listen
So be thankful don’t take life for granted
Go find what you’re missing
Yo the knowledge and courage is what you’re hitting
For real now listen
I’m thankful cause I was giving a mission
God bless me with War Party
And we’ll land with precession
That’s fact not fiction
So understand it because you got to be thankful
Find your life’s ambition then your reach is with in
Everything’s that’s worth living for
That’s why I’m thanking my moms and my dad
Xsey mon to for everything that I have
So if you ask me why I’m glad I’ll say because I’m thankful
Outro written by Jeremy Lightning
To just simply be thankful for what we have in life is a giving
So many of us take that for granted
I mean being in a dirt bike accident almost losing my leg
And still not having the full use of it now today
You know there is so many healthy people out there with two legs
But their, their not walking their not going anyplace in life you know
To just be thankful you know
So many of them aren’t, I just can’t believe that
Bruce Ferguson
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Europe went through a similar process. Many ancient religions and cultures were destroyed when Europe converted to Christianity.
Neo-pagans sympathize with what happened to the Native Americans. They believe the same happened to their pagan ancestors in Europe. To them Christians are oppressors and destroyers of cultures. Wiccans and such repeat this ad nauseam.
This is certainly not how Christians view history but it is how the enemies of Christendom want us to view history.
---
"On the rap song"
Christians don't need to adapt to the mainstream culture or resort to any other lame gimmicks to gain converts.
Hi Clark. When I studied the history of the Catholic Church it was very interesting to learn how the church used symbolism, ceremony and traditions of the various "pagan" nations as a teaching tool to the world outside christianity...even in the conversion of Ireland, the church was not violent.
Think about it; most European countries were evangelized my one form of Christianity, the complex thing about this process in North America is that it happened at the same time as the Protestant Revolution, counter cultures and as a result there was a violent competition not only between Crowns but Christian formats for the conversion of the Aboriginal person. This was not a soft conversion as in the historical case of Ireland, it was evil, violent and mean. It wasn't necessary if the Christians knew a bit more about belief systems. The Jesuits and to a degree the Oblates knew this and employed inculturation with new conversion communities. Pope Paul III even had to intervene and settle the quesitons that our people are indeed human...(that's good news to me :)
There is much good to be said about the form of paganism that honours the earth; paganism cannot be lumped in one bundle; paganism provided much of the symbolism historically in the Catholic Church. So yes, i believe there is a soft place our people have for pagans, so I understand the likewise feeling that neo pagans may have about us. Appreciated but feeling and facts are two different animals and our relationships need to be based onfact.
I beg to differ gently with you that Christians do not see the sins of our past as a church; we made mistakes, indeed we made mistakes with the Jєωιѕн people in the second world war; a time when even the pope worked so hard to hide Jєωιѕн people...how did that relate to official doctrines about the hebrew people. The human element of the church is not perfect even though the church itself is not capable of imperfection.
In terms of rap, too bad, your missing some good music, and your missing where the energy, inspiration and vision of the Holy Spirit even when He uses rap as a format for his followers...
Bruce
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I also agree with many of your points around victim mindsets...psychological assessments of traumatic childhood events...reconciliation is indeed a big business...I also call for a balancing of the story.
I'm glad to hear that. An important part of the balance will be to sort Catholic approaches to instruction from non-Catholic ones, with special reference to how the post-confederation Indian Act directed and systematized the school system.
The fact is that residential schools did exist, being removed forcibly when you are 5 or 6 years old for any nation or peoples would be traumatic and the highness or holiness in which most pre-council catholic held their clergy only to be impacted by the human nature and sinfulness of that clergy as humans does a lot - even inter-generationally- to destroy one's faith....
School was only made mandatory for Aboriginals in the late 19th Century, following Confederation and therefore under English leadership. (The Catholic leadership did not choose this system, but worked within it of necessity.) It should be recognized that prior to that time, some Aboriginal families did actually choose European-style schooling for their children, whether in day schools or boarding schools, Catholic or otherwise. It's likely that even after Confederation and the mandating of education, many Aboriginal children were not "removed forcibly" but were sent more or less willingly. We should also keep in mind, for the sake of balance, that residential schools were less common than day schools.
For these reasons, the idea that the Catholic Church sought to forcibly remove Aboriginal children from their homes is therefore very skewed.
Now there are two opposing narratives of this history and sometimes narratives are inspired to support a dualistic conclusion. I support the idea of looking at what worked (i.e. the purpose of evangelization), what didn't (the methodology of the residential schools denying cultural tools such as language, imagery, etc. that other orders such as the Oblates on Vancouver Island in their invention of a teaching stick modelled on the traditional talking stick that showed the salvation history as understood and taught by our church.
That reminds me of the Two Roads Map used by the Jesuits among the Sioux.
hello graham...sorry for the delay in response. I absolutely enjoy your response it is one of the few that is based on a conversation that is going somewhere. I have been saying and will continue to be saying in future writing that we cannot look at the history of the Catholic church and indigenous peoples just in the light of current political correctedness; that is not only misleading, it suffers a certain credibility problem from an academic perspective. You are correct on that.
I am saying only that the residential school is in fact a barrier and current politics makes the residential school a big bad monster and for the many abused it is bad; but equally there were many good religious, priests and bishops that have honored our people The Catholic bishop in fact helped our people establish a new reserve in Western Quebec because the Mohawk Christians did not want to share Oka (an Oblate christian community)...so yeah, I am aware that it is not a black and white history...
Actually, I know a Jesuit from that area, he taught a course to me when iwent to the Vancouver School of Theology; he also told us about the six year dialogue between the Jesuits and Sioux of South Dakota too...but do you think I can remember Fatherss name...geeesh... I'll have to get back to you on that.
Bruce
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Trickster,
You need to renounce all non-Catholic beliefs and embrace the Catholic faith because it is the Deposit of Faith handed to us by Our Lord Jesus Christ. You can't play both sides of the fence - that would be the worst of both worlds.
Now, I do realize this is difficult today when you may consider the Novus Ordo to be Catholic when it is in fact Conciliar and a blend of Catholicism with Masonic beliefs and a small dose of Jєωιѕн ideas all mixed together. A person can only be mixed up if they embrace the Novus Ordo. But you are a bright guy and you can see through this if you try.
You should pray that the Native Americans are bestowed with the sanctifying grace to seek out, and find, the Traditional Catholic Church. That is what you should spend your time on.
Now, if in your secular life, you are an attorney who represents Indians, then good luck but mention to your clients that they should seek out a Traditional Catholic Church also.
Hopefully, there is an SSPX or CMRI or SSPV chapel in your area.
These ideas of holding on to grievances, real or imagined, only leads a person to anger and that anger can become uncontained thereby leading a person to hatred. This is all wasted energy. Dedicate a decade of the rosary to the American Indians and place it all in God's Hands.
Hey Cat McQuigg; thank you for your heart felt posting, but it ain't going to happen brother. I have been honest that I believe the Vatican II and the church today is the church, that the Holy Spirit has continued to guide our church; Communisim, liberalism or even the Traditional Catholics will not prevail over it.
We have to agree to disagree. I have an open mind and heart; I want to continue the discussion because the gifts of Traditional Catholicism is that it is a good source of critisism that keeps us accountable. I would hope that an open heart will guide Traditional Catholics to be Catholics and not write off their brothers and sisters who follow their conscience in the post Vatican II Church.
So, to be clear I am not playing both sides of the fence. I am a dedicated Catholic in what you call the Novus Ordo. I cannot make things any simpler. I have started to review the communism aspect of liberalism in the church. I do not believe it is fair to liberalism to throw it all in one package and call it bad and then spread that idea in simple labels... in otherwords those who aspire to be a good traditional catholic = in order to sound traditional - will throw those words and dividing the church unnecessarily without even understanding what liberalism is. That too is a bad thing, it is the sin of dividing the church...St. Paul had a few things to say about that in his letters.
Equally, many in the Novus Ordo (and I like that description myself) and I guess I am a comfortable Novus Ordo guy; is that they too have labelled traditional catholics as extremes, as those wanting to live in the past... and so forth...without taking the time to talk to you or learn about why you believe why you believe things the way you do....that is ignorance...when we are more comfortable with the "them-us" division where we don't have to actually know one another.. now that is the fertile ground in which Satan can do a lot of damage and extremist positions actually support the work of the devil in his fight for domination.
Anyways enough of the heavy stuff...Capt'n I respect your words, I will just say duly noted and I know you will respect my responsibility to answer before my Creator on the day of judgement. I also pray by the way to see the truth... so who knows... I also assume that you pray continuually to be in the light of the truth...ok "nuff" said.
bruce
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Trickster,
You need to renounce all non-Catholic beliefs and embrace the Catholic faith because it is the Deposit of Faith handed to us by Our Lord Jesus Christ. You can't play both sides of the fence - that would be the worst of both worlds.
Now, I do realize this is difficult today when you may consider the Novus Ordo to be Catholic when it is in fact Conciliar and a blend of Catholicism with Masonic beliefs and a small dose of Jєωιѕн ideas all mixed together. A person can only be mixed up if they embrace the Novus Ordo. But you are a bright guy and you can see through this if you try.
You should pray that the Native Americans are bestowed with the sanctifying grace to seek out, and find, the Traditional Catholic Church. That is what you should spend your time on.
Now, if in your secular life, you are an attorney who represents Indians, then good luck but mention to your clients that they should seek out a Traditional Catholic Church also.
Hopefully, there is an SSPX or CMRI or SSPV chapel in your area.
These ideas of holding on to grievances, real or imagined, only leads a person to anger and that anger can become uncontained thereby leading a person to hatred. This is all wasted energy. Dedicate a decade of the rosary to the American Indians and place it all in God's Hands.
Excellent advice, Capt. I hope that Trickster will take it to heart and reflect on what you've written.
I'd like to add a couple of things. I know that really bad things happened in some of the Catholic residential schools for Indians. But the dominant Protestant culture should also be considered. Is the idea of residential schools for Indians really a Catholic construct? I don't think that it is.
Compare the situation with the Indian population in Mexico when it was first settled by the Spanish. The policy there, if I recall correctly, was to integrate the Indians into the greater culture. Hence, there were Indians who worked in the government very early on. I don't think that they were thought of as being inferior (though there were cases of slavery of Indians). I think that most Mexicans are part Indian due to the integration of the native population into greater society. There's a good book written on the history of Mexico called, "Blood-drenched Altars." It gives a history of Mexico from a truly Catholic perspective.
Trickster, please also keep in mind that there were those Catholic religious and clergy who treated the American Indians well, such as Fr. Junipero Serra, and the North American Martyrs, as well as others. One of my favorite saints is St. Kateri. She was treated well by her confessors, and was a wonderful example of the holiness which some of the Indians in those days were capable of achieving. St Kateri wasn't the only example of holiness - there were others, too, who haven't been canonized.
Hello Meg. Given that I posted a response to the Capts caring words I won't bother repeating myself on that....You make some good points that I want to respond to;
1. Yes Protestants are involved. Of the three denominations in Canada that operated residential schools, Catholics were only one; the other two were the United Church of Canada and the Anglican Church of Canada.
2. No the residential school was not a Catholic construct. It was a federal government construct to make our people "white". In New France, when native kids went to school they went with french kids they weren't separated; it is in the English system where the children were not only separated from their families at ages 5 onwards (and you gotto see that as painful) but also separated from non-native kids; they were only taught skills that would put them in subservient positions in the Canadian economy of th eday tooo...all based on attitude towards Canada's savages.
3. Your example of Mexico (Latin America) is so on the spot! the Spanish approach (which is surpising since they were so inquisitional :) was to integrate...and yes most Latinos are part Native. but guess what 75% of Francophone Canadians and Quebeois are also part Native, so that supports your point. I am with you this..you are historically correct.
4. In terms of the American Missions and St. Kateri Tekakwitha (who by the way is related to my peoples the Algonquins) and since we have canonized her in the Novus Ordo, i appreciate her intervention...you are again correct, and that is the meeting point between you and me. As an aboriginal catholic my interest is to explore those relationship in the old church because that is the majority of our history....the last 50 years are also interesting.. but the roots come before Vatican II and that is my interest for participating in CathInfo.
I am very happy to meet you on line.
Bruce
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Hello Meg. Given that I posted a response to the Capts caring words I won't bother repeating myself on that....You make some good points that I want to respond to;
1. Yes Protestants are involved. Of the three denominations in Canada that operated residential schools, Catholics were only one; the other two were the United Church of Canada and the Anglican Church of Canada.
2. No the residential school was not a Catholic construct. It was a federal government construct to make our people "white". In New France, when native kids went to school they went with french kids they weren't separated; it is in the English system where the children were not only separated from their families at ages 5 onwards (and you gotto see that as painful) but also separated from non-native kids; they were only taught skills that would put them in subservient positions in the Canadian economy of th eday tooo...all based on attitude towards Canada's savages.
3. Your example of Mexico (Latin America) is so on the spot! the Spanish approach (which is surpising since they were so inquisitional :) was to integrate...and yes most Latinos are part Native. but guess what 75% of Francophone Canadians and Quebeois are also part Native, so that supports your point. I am with you this..you are historically correct.
4. In terms of the American Missions and St. Kateri Tekakwitha (who by the way is related to my peoples the Algonquins) and since we have canonized her in the Novus Ordo, i appreciate her intervention...you are again correct, and that is the meeting point between you and me. As an aboriginal catholic my interest is to explore those relationship in the old church because that is the majority of our history....the last 50 years are also interesting.. but the roots come before Vatican II and that is my interest for participating in CathInfo.
I am very happy to meet you on line.
Bruce
Hi Bruce, it's taken awhile for me to get back to this thread - a very busy week for me. I had no idea that 75% of Francophone Canadians and Quebecois are part Native. But it makes sense.
I'm glad that you're interested in exploring the pre Vatican ll Church.
Something that I find perplexing about the canonization of St. Kateri Tekakwitha. She is considered to be the partron saint of environmentalism. But I think that St. Kateri herself would probably not have any idea what that means. Her whole life was devoted to Our Lord and Our Lady, and to helping those villagers who were ill and infirm. She couldn't wait to attend Mass every morning. She was the first to arrive, and the last one to leave Mass.
I don't recall anything in her biography (written by two of her confessors) which would indicate that she was devoted to the environment. What do you think?
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Hi Bruce, it's taken awhile for me to get back to this thread - a very busy week for me. I had no idea that 75% of Francophone Canadians and Quebecois are part Native. But it makes sense.
I'm glad that you're interested in exploring the pre Vatican ll Church.
Something that I find perplexing about the canonization of St. Kateri Tekakwitha. She is considered to be the partron saint of environmentalism. But I think that St. Kateri herself would probably not have any idea what that means. Her whole life was devoted to Our Lord and Our Lady, and to helping those villagers who were ill and infirm. She couldn't wait to attend Mass every morning. She was the first to arrive, and the last one to leave Mass.
I don't recall anything in her biography (written by two of her confessors) which would indicate that she was devoted to the environment. What do you think?
Hello Meg. I chuckled when I read about St. Tekakwitha being the saint of the environment. Her mother was an Algonquin woman (my peoples as my home community is Kitigan-zibi Anishinabeg, Maniwaki, QC) but her father was Mohawk...and our peoples were traditional enemies...interesting point for a half-breed tribal identity that me and Kateri share :)
I chuckled because the church was in a way being politically correct which I have never known Ratzinger (Benedict) to be before. It supports a myth about our people that somehow we were all noble savages romping around the North American garden of eden..and we know that isn't true. I respect your views and agree that Tekakwitha was about her spiritual life and relationship with Our Lord, but she did so as an Aboriginal person and I think that is the key point to make.
Given though that Kateri was Mohawk-Algonquin she would of been raised quite naturally within the spiritual traditions of our peoples. Within our teachings as native people is the connectedness of creation and I guess it is not a stretch of the imagination to link the environment and Kateri i n that sense. The Jesuits of the time allowed for the gospel to be enlightened by culture as well as culture being fulfilled by the gospel...the two enforced and strengthened each other...
That is the only connection or base that I can think of why our church would call Kateri the saint of the environement....move over Francis of Assisi, whom I think JP II called the saint of the environment....oh well, it's all good, the fact that our Catholic faith is connected (as it always was) to creation...
Bruce Ferguson