Quote from: trickster

I also agree with many of your points around victim mindsets...psychological assessments of traumatic childhood events...reconciliation is indeed a big business...I also call for a balancing of the story.  

I'm glad to hear that. An important part of the balance will be to sort Catholic approaches to instruction from non-Catholic ones, with special reference to how the post-confederation Indian Act directed and systematized the school system.

Quote from: trickster

The fact is that residential schools did exist, being removed forcibly when you are 5 or 6 years old for any nation or peoples would be traumatic and the highness or holiness in which most pre-council catholic held their clergy only to be impacted by the human nature and sinfulness of that clergy as humans does a lot - even inter-generationally-  to destroy one's faith....

School was only made mandatory for Aboriginals in the late 19th Century, following Confederation and therefore under English leadership. (The Catholic leadership did not choose this system, but worked within it of necessity.) It should be recognized that prior to that time, some Aboriginal families did actually choose European-style schooling for their children, whether in day schools or boarding schools, Catholic or otherwise. It's likely that even after Confederation and the mandating of education, many Aboriginal children were not "removed forcibly" but were sent more or less willingly. We should also keep in mind, for the sake of balance, that residential schools were less common than day schools.

For these reasons, the idea that the Catholic Church sought to forcibly remove Aboriginal children from their homes is therefore very skewed.

Quote from: trickster

Now there are two opposing narratives of this history and sometimes narratives are inspired to support a dualistic conclusion.   I support the idea of looking at what worked (i.e. the purpose of evangelization), what didn't (the methodology of the residential schools denying cultural tools such as language, imagery, etc. that other orders such as the Oblates on Vancouver Island in their invention of a teaching stick modelled on the traditional talking stick that showed the salvation history as understood and taught by our church.

That reminds me of the Two Roads Map used by the Jesuits among the Sioux.

hello graham...sorry for the delay in response.  I absolutely enjoy your response it is one of the few that is based on a conversation that is going somewhere.  I have been saying and will continue to be saying in future writing that we cannot look at the history of the Catholic church and indigenous peoples just in the light of current political correctedness; that is not only misleading, it suffers a certain credibility problem from an academic perspective.  You are correct on that.  

I am saying only that the residential school is in fact a barrier and current politics makes the residential school a big bad monster and for the many abused it is bad; but equally there were many good religious, priests and bishops that have honored our people    The Catholic bishop in fact helped our people establish a new reserve in Western Quebec because the Mohawk Christians did not want to share Oka (an Oblate christian community)...so yeah, I am aware that it is not a black and white history...

Actually, I know a Jesuit from that area, he taught a course to me when iwent to the Vancouver School of Theology; he also told us about the six year dialogue between the Jesuits and Sioux of South Dakota too...but do you think I can remember Fatherss name...geeesh... I'll have to get back to you on that.

Bruce

Quote from: Capt McQuigg

Trickster,

You need to renounce all non-Catholic beliefs and embrace the Catholic faith because it is the Deposit of Faith handed to us by Our Lord Jesus Christ.  You can't play both sides of the fence - that would be the worst of both worlds.

Now, I do realize this is difficult today when you may consider the Novus Ordo to be Catholic when it is in fact Conciliar and a blend of Catholicism with Masonic beliefs and a small dose of Jєωιѕн ideas all mixed together.  A person can only be mixed up if they embrace the Novus Ordo.  But you are a bright guy and you can see through this if you try.

You should pray that the Native Americans are bestowed with the sanctifying grace to seek out, and find, the Traditional Catholic Church.  That is what you should spend your time on.

Now, if in your secular life, you are an attorney who represents Indians, then good luck but mention to your clients that they should seek out a Traditional Catholic Church also.  

Hopefully, there is an SSPX or CMRI or SSPV chapel in your area.

These ideas of holding on to grievances, real or imagined, only leads a person to anger and that anger can become uncontained thereby leading a person to hatred.  This is all wasted energy.  Dedicate a decade of the rosary to the American Indians and place it all in God's Hands.

Excellent advice, Capt. I hope that Trickster will take it to heart and reflect on what you've written.

I'd like to add a couple of things. I know that really bad things happened in some of the Catholic residential schools for Indians. But the dominant Protestant culture should also be considered. Is the idea of residential schools for Indians really a Catholic construct? I don't think that it is.

Compare the situation with the Indian population in Mexico when it was first settled by the Spanish. The policy there, if I recall correctly, was to integrate the Indians into the greater culture. Hence, there were Indians who worked in the government very early on. I don't think that they were thought of as being inferior (though there were cases of slavery of Indians). I think that most Mexicans are part Indian due to the integration of the native population into greater society. There's a good book written on the history of Mexico called, "Blood-drenched Altars." It gives a history of Mexico from a truly Catholic perspective.

Trickster, please also keep in mind that there were those Catholic religious and clergy who treated the American Indians well, such as Fr. Junipero Serra, and the North American Martyrs, as well as others. One of my favorite saints is St. Kateri. She was treated well by her confessors, and was a wonderful example of the holiness which some of the Indians in those days were capable of achieving.  St Kateri wasn't the only example of holiness - there were others, too, who haven't been canonized.

Hello Meg.  Given that I posted a response to the Capts caring words I won't bother repeating myself on that....You make some good points that I want to respond to;

1.  Yes Protestants are involved.  Of the three denominations in Canada that operated residential schools, Catholics were only one; the other two were the United Church of Canada and the Anglican Church of Canada.

2.  No the residential school was not a Catholic construct.  It was a federal government construct to make our people "white".  In New France, when native kids went to school they went with french kids they weren't separated; it is in the English system where the children were not only separated from their families at ages 5 onwards (and you gotto see that as painful) but also separated from non-native kids; they were only taught skills that would put them in subservient positions in the Canadian economy of th eday tooo...all based on attitude towards Canada's savages.

3.  Your example of Mexico (Latin America) is so on the spot!  the Spanish approach (which is surpising since they were so inquisitional :)  was to integrate...and yes most Latinos are part Native.  but guess what 75% of Francophone Canadians and Quebeois are also part Native, so that supports your point.  I am with you this..you are historically correct.

4.  In terms of the American Missions and St. Kateri Tekakwitha (who by the way is related to my peoples the Algonquins) and since we have canonized her in the Novus Ordo, i appreciate her intervention...you are again correct, and that is the meeting point between you and me.  As an aboriginal catholic my interest is to explore those relationship in the old church because that is the majority of our history....the last 50 years are also interesting.. but the roots come before Vatican II and that is my interest for participating in CathInfo.

I am very happy to meet you on line.

Bruce
 

Hi Bruce, it's taken awhile for me to get back to this thread - a very busy week for me. I had no idea that 75% of Francophone Canadians and Quebecois are part Native. But it makes sense.

I'm glad that you're interested in exploring the pre Vatican ll Church.

Something that I find perplexing about the canonization of St. Kateri Tekakwitha. She is considered to be the partron saint of environmentalism. But I think that St. Kateri herself would probably not have any idea what that means. Her whole life was devoted to Our Lord and Our Lady, and to helping those villagers who were ill and infirm. She couldn't wait to attend Mass every morning. She was the first to arrive, and the last one to leave Mass.

I don't recall anything in her biography (written by two of her confessors) which would indicate that she was devoted to the environment. What do you think?

Hello Meg.  I chuckled when I read about St. Tekakwitha being the saint of the environment.  Her mother was an Algonquin woman (my peoples as my home community is Kitigan-zibi Anishinabeg, Maniwaki, QC) but her father was Mohawk...and our peoples were traditional enemies...interesting point for a half-breed tribal identity that me and Kateri  share :)

I chuckled because the church was in a way being politically correct which I have never known Ratzinger (Benedict) to be before.  It supports a myth about our people that somehow we were all noble savages romping around the North American garden of eden..and we know that isn't true.  I respect your views and agree that Tekakwitha was about her spiritual life and relationship with Our Lord, but she did so as an Aboriginal person and I think that is the key point to make.

Given though that Kateri was Mohawk-Algonquin she would of been raised quite naturally within the spiritual traditions of our peoples.  Within our teachings as native people is the connectedness of creation and I guess it is not a stretch of the imagination to  link the environment and Kateri i n that sense.  The Jesuits of the time allowed for the gospel to be enlightened by culture as well as culture being fulfilled by the gospel...the two enforced and strengthened each other...

That is the only connection or base that I can think of why our church would call Kateri the saint of the environement....move over Francis of Assisi, whom I think JP II called the saint of the environment....oh well, it's all  good, the fact that our Catholic faith is connected (as it always was) to creation...

Bruce Ferguson