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Offline Matto

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Regarding food and expenses.
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2010, 05:45:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: Emerentiana
    Good old water is what everyone should be drinking!  No one seems to get enough of it.

    As an aside, my brother once drank too much water. He drank so much that it caused his body to become too watery and not salty enough, which somehow makes your nervous system unable to work properly. This caused him to pass out, bang his head, and have to go to the hospital (or at least this was the doctors' theory as to why he passed out, based on tests they did).
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.


    Offline Emerentiana

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    Regarding food and expenses.
    « Reply #16 on: September 14, 2010, 05:50:25 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    Quote from: Emerentiana
    Good old water is what everyone should be drinking!  No one seems to get enough of it.

    As an aside, my brother once drank too much water. He drank so much that it caused his body to become too watery and not salty enough, which somehow makes your nervous system unable to work properly. This caused him to pass out, bang his head, and have to go to the hospital (or at least this was the doctors' theory as to why he passed out, based on tests they did).


    That can happen, Matto,
    I liter a day for an adult is sufficient.  Excessive water consumption overloads the kidneys and interferes with electrolyte balance in the blood.


    Offline Alexandria

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    Regarding food and expenses.
    « Reply #17 on: September 14, 2010, 06:00:08 PM »
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  • CathMomof7

    Everything I wanted to say and you said much better.   :wink:   :wink:

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Regarding food and expenses.
    « Reply #18 on: September 14, 2010, 06:13:57 PM »
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  • Fresh milk is without a doubt one of the healthiest foods for people of Northern European descent.

    Offline Emerentiana

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    Regarding food and expenses.
    « Reply #19 on: September 14, 2010, 07:15:48 PM »
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  •     THE MILK LETTER : A MESSAGE TO MY PATIENTS
                           Robert M. Kradjian, MD
               Breast Surgery Chief Division of General Surgery,
                Seton Medical Centre #302 - 1800 Sullivan Ave.
                          Daly City, CA 94015 USA

    "MILK" Just the word itself sounds comforting! "How about a nice cup of
    hot milk?" The last time you heard that question it was from someone who
    cared for you--and you appreciated their effort.

    The entire matter of food and especially that of milk is surrounded with
    emotional and cultural importance. Milk was our very first food. If we
    were fortunate it was our mother's milk. A loving link, given and taken.
    It was the only path to survival. If not mother's milk it was cow's milk
    or soy milk "formula"--rarely it was goat, camel or water buffalo milk.

    Now, we are a nation of milk drinkers. Nearly all of us. Infants, the
    young, adolescents, adults and even the aged. We drink dozens or even
    several hundred gallons a year and add to that many pounds of "dairy
    products" such as cheese, butter, and yogurt.

    Can there be anything wrong with this? We see reassuring images of
    healthy, beautiful people on our television screens and hear messages
    that assure us that, "Milk is good for your body." Our dieticians insist
    that: "You've got to have milk, or where will you get your calcium?"
    School lunches always include milk and nearly every hospital meal will
    have milk added. And if that isn't enough, our nutritionists told us for
    years that dairy products make up an "essential food group." Industry
    spokesmen made sure that colourful charts proclaiming the necessity of
    milk and other essential nutrients were made available at no cost for
    schools. Cow's milk became "normal."

    You may be surprised to learn that most of the human beings that live on
    planet Earth today do not drink or use cow's milk. Further, most of them
    can't drink milk because it makes them ill.

    There are students of human nutrition who are not supportive of milk use
    for adults. Here is a quotation from the March/April 1991 Utne Reader:

    If you really want to play it safe, you may decide to join the growing
    number of Americans who are eliminating dairy products from their diets
    altogether. Although this sounds radical to those of us weaned on milk
    and the five basic food groups, it is eminently viable. Indeed, of all
    the mammals, only humans--and then only a minority, principally
    Caucasians--continue to drink milk beyond babyhood.

    Who is right? Why the confusion? Where best to get our answers? Can we
    trust milk industry spokesmen? Can you trust any industry spokesmen? Are
    nutritionists up to date or are they simply repeating what their
    professors learned years ago? What about the new voices urging caution?

    I believe that there are three reliable sources of information. The
    first, and probably the best, is a study of nature. The second is to
    study the history of our own species. Finally we need to look at the
    world's scientific literature on the subject of milk.

    Let's look at the scientific literature first. From 1988 to 1993 there
    were over 2,700 articles dealing with milk recorded in the 'Medicine'
    archives. Fifteen hundred of theses had milk as the main focus of the
    article. There is no lack of scientific information on this subject. I
    reviewed over 500 of the 1,500 articles, discarding articles that dealt
    exclusively with animals, esoteric research and inconclusive studies.

    How would I summarize the articles? They were only slightly less than
    horrifying. First of all, none of the authors spoke of cow's milk as an
    excellent food, free of side effects and the 'perfect food' as we have
    been led to believe by the industry. The main focus of the published
    reports seems to be on intestinal colic, intestinal irritation,
    intestinal bleeding, anemia, allergic reactions in infants and children
    as well as infections such as salmonella. More ominous is the fear of
    viral infection with bovine leukemia virus or an AIDS-like virus as well
    as concern for childhood diabetes. Contamination of milk by blood and
    white (pus) cells as well as a variety of chemicals and insecticides was
    also discussed. Among children the problems were allergy, ear and
    tonsillar infections, bedwetting, asthma, intestinal bleeding, colic and
    childhood diabetes. In adults the problems seemed centered more around
    heart disease and arthritis, allergy, sinusitis, and the more serious
    questions of leukemia, lymphoma and cancer.

    I think that an answer can also be found in a consideration of what
    occurs in nature & what happens with free living mammals and what
    happens with human groups living in close to a natural state as 'hunter-
    gatherers'.

    Our paleolithic ancestors are another crucial and interesting group to
    study. Here we are limited to speculation and indirect evidences, but
    the bony remains available for our study are remarkable. There is no
    doubt whatever that these skeletal remains reflect great strength,
    muscularity (the size of the muscular insertions show this), and total
    absence of advanced osteoporosis. And if you feel that these people are
    not important for us to study, consider that today our genes are
    programming our bodies in almost exactly the same way as our ancestors
    of 50,000 to 100,000 years ago.

    WHAT IS MILK?

    Milk is a maternal lactating secretion, a short term nutrient for new-
    borns. Nothing more, nothing less. Invariably, the mother of any mammal
    will provide her milk for a short period of time immediately after
    birth. When the time comes for 'weaning', the young offspring is
    introduced to the proper food for that species of mammal. A familiar
    example is that of a puppy. The mother nurses the pup for just a few
    weeks and then rejects the young animal and teaches it to eat solid
    food. Nursing is provided by nature only for the very youngest of
    mammals. Of course, it is not possible for animals living in a natural
    state to continue with the drinking of milk after weaning.


    IS ALL MILK THE SAME?

    Then there is the matter of where we get our milk. We have settled on
    the cow because of its docile nature, its size, and its abundant milk
    supply. Somehow this choice seems 'normal' and blessed by nature, our
    culture, and our customs. But is it natural? Is it wise to drink the
    milk of another species of mammal?

    Consider for a moment, if it was possible, to drink the milk of a mammal
    other than a cow, let's say a rat. Or perhaps the milk of a dog would be
    more to your liking. Possibly some horse milk or cat milk. Do you get
    the idea? Well, I'm not serious about this, except to suggest that human
    milk is for human infants, dogs' milk is for pups, cows' milk is for
    calves, cats' milk is for kittens, and so forth. Clearly, this is the
    way nature intends it. Just use your own good judgement on this one.

    Milk is not just milk. The milk of every species of mammal is unique and
    specifically tailored to the requirements of that animal. For example,
    cows' milk is very much richer in protein than human milk. Three to four
    times as much. It has five to seven times the mineral content. However,
    it is markedly deficient in essential fatty acids when compared to human
    mothers' milk. Mothers' milk has six to ten times as much of the
    essential fatty acids, especially linoleic acid. (Incidentally, skimmed
    cow's milk has no linoleic acid). It simply is not designed for humans.

    Food is not just food, and milk is not just milk. It is not only the
    proper amount of food but the proper qualitative composition that is
    critical for the very best in health and growth. Biochemists and
    physiologists -and rarely medical doctors - are gradually learning that
    foods contain the crucial elements that allow a particular species to
    develop its unique specializations.

    Clearly, our specialization is for advanced neurological development and
    delicate neuromuscular control. We do not have much need of massive
    skeletal growth or huge muscle groups as does a calf. Think of the
    difference between the demands make on the human hand and the demands on
    a cow's hoof. Human new-borns specifically need critical material for
    their brains, spinal cord and nerves.

    Can mother's milk increase intelligence? It seems that it can. In a
    remarkable study published in Lancet during 1992 (Vol. 339, p. 261-4), a
    group of British workers randomly placed premature infants into two
    groups. One group received a proper formula, the other group received
    human breast milk. Both fluids were given by stomach tube. These
    children were followed up for over 10 years. In intelligence testing,
    the human milk children averaged 10 IQ points higher! Well, why not? Why
    wouldn't the correct building blocks for the rapidly maturing and
    growing brain have a positive effect?

    In the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (1982) Ralph Holman
    described an infant who developed profound neurological disease while
    being nourished by intravenous fluids only. The fluids used contained
    only linoleic acid -just one of the essential fatty acids. When the
    other, alpha linoleic acid, was added to the intravenous fluids the
    neurological disorders cleared.

    In the same journal five years later Bjerve, Mostad and Thoresen,
    working in Norway found exactly the same problem in adult patients on
    long term gastric tube feeding.

    In 1930 Dr. G.O. Burr in Minnesota working with rats found that linoleic
    acid deficiencies created a deficiency syndrome. Why is this mentioned?
    In the early 1960s pediatricians found skin lesions in children fed
    formulas without the same linoleic acid. Remembering the research, the
    addition of the acid to the formula cured the problem. Essential fatty
    acids are just that and cows' milk is markedly deficient in these when
    compared to human milk.

    WELL, AT LEAST COW'S MILK IS PURE

    Or is it? Fifty years ago an average cow produced 2,000 pounds of milk
    per year. Today the top producers give 50,000 pounds! How was this
    accomplished? Drugs, antibiotics, hormones, forced feeding plans and
    specialized breeding; that's how.

    The latest high-tech onslaught on the poor cow is bovine growth hormone
    or BGH. This genetically engineered drug is supposed to stimulate milk
    production but, according to Monsanto, the hormone's manufacturer, does
    not affect the milk or meat. There are three other manufacturers:
    Upjohn, Eli Lilly, and American Cyanamid Company. Obviously, there have
    been no long-term studies on the hormone's effect on the humans drinking
    the milk. Other countries have banned BGH because of safety concerns.
    One of the problems with adding molecules to a milk cows' body is that
    the molecules usually come out in the milk. I don't know how you feel,
    but I don't want to experiment with the ingestion of a growth hormone. A
    related problem is that it causes a marked increase (50 to 70 per cent)
    in mastitis. This, then, requires antibiotic therapy, and the residues
    of the antibiotics appear in the milk. It seems that the public is
    uneasy about this product and in one survey 43 per cent felt that growth
    hormone treated milk represented a health risk. A vice president for
    public policy at Monsanto was opposed to labelling for that reason, and
    because the labelling would create an 'artificial distinction'. The
    country is awash with milk as it is, we produce more milk than we can
    consume. Let's not create storage costs and further taxpayer burdens,
    because the law requires the USDA to buy any surplus of butter, cheese,
    or non-fat dry milk at a support price set by Congress! In fiscal 1991,
    the USDA spent $757 million on surplus butter, and one billion dollars a
    year on average for price supports during the 1980s (Consumer Reports,
    May 1992: 330-32).

    Any lactating mammal excretes toxins through her milk. This includes
    antibiotics, pesticides, chemicals and hormones. Also, all cows' milk
    contains blood! The inspectors are simply asked to keep it under certain
    limits. You may be horrified to learn that the USDA allows milk to
    contain from one to one and a half million white blood cells per
    millilitre. (That's only 1/30 of an ounce). If you don't already know
    this, I'm sorry to tell you that another way to describe white cells
    where they don't belong would be to call them pus cells. To get to the
    point, is milk pure or is it a chemical, biological, and bacterial
    cocktail? Finally, will the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) protect
    you? The United States General Accounting Office (GAO) tells us that the
    FDA and the individual States are failing to protect the public from
    drug residues in milk. Authorities test for only 4 of the 82 drugs in
    dairy cows.

    As you can imagine, the Milk Industry Foundation's spokesman claims it's
    perfectly safe. Jerome Kozak says, "I still think that milk is the
    safest product we have."

    Other, perhaps less biased observers, have found the following: 38% of
    milk samples in 10 cities were contaminated with sulfa drugs or other
    antibiotics. (This from the Centre for Science in the Public Interest
    and The Wall Street Journal, Dec. 29, 1989).. A similar study in
    Washington, DC found a 20 percent contamination rate (Nutrition Action
    Healthletter, April 1990).

    What's going on here? When the FDA tested milk, they found few problems.
    However, they used very lax standards. When they used the same criteria,
    the FDA data showed 51 percent of the milk samples showed drug traces.

    Let's focus in on this because itÂ’s critical to our understanding of
    the apparent discrepancies. The FDA uses a disk-assay method that can
    detect only 2 of the 30 or so drugs found in milk. Also, the test
    detects only at the relatively high level. A more powerful test called
    the 'Charm II test' can detect drugs down to 5 parts per billion.

    One nasty subject must be discussed. It seems that cows are forever
    getting infections around the udder that require ointments and
    antibiotics. An article from France tells us that when a cow receives
    penicillin, that penicillin appears in the milk for from 4 to 7
    milkings. Another study from the University of Nevada, Reno tells of
    cells in 'mastic milk', milk from cows with infected udders. An
    elaborate analysis of the cell fragments, employing cell cultures, flow
    cytometric analysis , and a great deal of high tech stuff. Do you know
    what the conclusion was? If the cow has mastitis, there is pus in the
    milk. Sorry, itÂ’s in the study, all concealed with language such as
    "macrophages containing many vacuoles and phagocytosed particles," etc.

    IT GETS WORSE

    Well, at least human mothers' milk is pure! Sorry. A huge study showed
    that human breast milk in over 14,000 women had contamination by
    pesticides! Further, it seems that the sources of the pesticides are
    meat and--you guessed it--dairy products. Well, why not? These
    pesticides are concentrated in fat and that's what's in these products.
    (Of interest, a subgroup of lactating vegetarian mothers had only half
    the levels of contamination).

    A recent report showed an increased concentration of pesticides in the
    breast tissue of women with breast cancer when compared to the tissue of
    women with fibrocystic disease. Other articles in the standard medical
    literature describe problems. Just scan these titles:

    1.Cow's Milk as a Cause of Infantile Colic Breast-Fed Infants. Lancet 2
    (1978): 437 2.Dietary Protein-Induced Colitis in Breast- Fed Infants, J.
    Pediatr. I01 (1982): 906 3.The Question of the Elimination of Foreign
    Protein in Women's Milk, J. Immunology 19 (1930): 15

    There are many others. There are dozens of studies describing the prompt
    appearance of cows' milk allergy in children being exclusively breast-
    fed! The cows' milk allergens simply appear in the mother's milk and are
    transmitted to the infant.

    A committee on nutrition of the American Academy of Pediatrics reported
    on the use of whole cows' milk in infancy (Pediatrics 1983: 72-253).
    They were unable to provide any cogent reason why bovine milk should be
    used before the first birthday yet continued to recommend its use!
    Doctor Frank Oski from the Upstate Medical Centre Department of
    Pediatrics, commenting on the recommendation, cited the problems of
    acute gastrointestinal blood loss in infants, the lack of iron,
    recurrent abdominal pain, milk-borne infections and contaminants, and
    said:

    Why give it at all - then or ever? In the face of uncertainty about many
    of the potential dangers of whole bovine milk, it would seem prudent to
    recommend that whole milk not be started until the answers are
    available. Isn't it time for these uncontrolled experiments on human
    nutrition to come to an end?

    In the same issue of Pediatrics he further commented:

    It is my thesis that whole milk should not be fed to the infant in the
    first year of life because of its association with iron deficiency
    anemia (milk is so deficient in iron that an infant would have to drink
    an impossible 31 quarts a day to get the RDA of 15 mg), acute
    gastrointiestinal bleeding, and various manifestations of food allergy.

    I suggest that unmodified whole bovine milk should not be consumed after
    infancy because of the problems of lactose intolerance, its contribution
    to the genesis of atherosclerosis, and its possible link to other
    diseases.

    In late 1992 Dr. Benjamin Spock, possibly the best known pediatrician in
    history, shocked the country when he articulated the same thoughts and
    specified avoidance for the first two years of life. Here is his
    quotation:

    I want to pass on the word to parents that cows' milk from the carton
    has definite faults for some babies. Human milk is the right one for
    babies. A study comparing the incidence of allergy and colic in the
    breast-fed infants of omnivorous and vegan mothers would be important. I
    haven't found such a study; it would be both important and inexpensive.
    And it will probably never be done. There is simply no academic or
    economic profit involved.

    OTHER PROBLEMS

    Let's just mention the problems of bacterial contamination. Salmonella,
    E. coli, and staphylococcal infections can be traced to milk. In the old
    days tuberculosis was a major problem and some folks want to go back to
    those times by insisting on raw milk on the basis that it's "natural."
    This is insanity! A study from UCLA showed that over a third of all
    cases of salmonella infection in California, 1980-1983 were traced to
    raw milk. That'll be a way to revive good old brucellosis again and I
    would fear leukemia, too. (More about that later). In England, and Wales
    where raw milk is still consumed there have been outbreaks of milk-borne
    diseases. The Journal of the American Medical Association (251: 483,
    1984) reported a multi-state series of infections caused by Yersinia
    enterocolitica in pasteurised whole milk. This is despite safety
    precautions.

    All parents dread juvenile diabetes for their children. A Canadian study
    reported in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Mar. 1990,
    describes a "...significant positive correlation between consumption of
    unfermented milk protein and incidence of insulin dependent diabetes
    mellitus in data from various countries. Conversely a possible negative
    relationship is observed between breast-feeding at age 3 months and
    diabetes risk.".

    Another study from Finland found that diabetic children had higher
    levels of serum antibodies to cowsÂ’ milk (Diabetes Research 7(3): 137-
    140 March 1988). Here is a quotation from this study:

    We infer that either the pattern of cows' milk consumption is altered in
    children who will have insulin dependent diabetes mellitus or, their
    immunological reactivity to proteins in cows' milk is enhanced, or the
    permeability of their intestines to cows' milk protein is higher than
    normal.

    The April 18, 1992 British Medical Journal has a fascinating study
    contrasting the difference in incidence of juvenile insulin dependent
    diabetes in Pakistani children who have migrated to England. The
    incidence is roughly 10 times greater in the English group compared to
    children remaining in Pakistan! What caused this highly significant
    increase? The authors said that "the diet was unchanged in Great
    Britain." Do you believe that? Do you think that the availability of
    milk, sugar and fat is the same in Pakistan as it is in England? That a
    grocery store in England has the same products as food sources in
    Pakistan? I don't believe that for a minute. Remember, we're not talking
    here about adult onset, type II diabetes which all workers agree is
    strongly linked to diet as well as to a genetic predisposition. This
    study is a major blow to the "it's all in your genes" crowd. Type I
    diabetes was always considered to be genetic or possibly viral, but now
    this? So resistant are we to consider diet as causation that the authors
    of the last article concluded that the cooler climate in England altered
    viruses and caused the very real increase in diabetes! The first two
    authors had the same reluctance top admit the obvious. The milk just may
    have had something to do with the disease.

    The latest in this remarkable list of reports, a New England Journal of
    Medicine article (July 30, 1992), also reported in the Los Angeles
    Times. This study comes from the Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto
    and from Finnish researchers. In Finland there is "...the world's
    highest rate of dairy product consumption and the world's highest rate
    of insulin dependent diabetes. The disease strikes about 40 children out
    of every 1,000 there contrasted with six to eight per 1,000 in the
    United States.... Antibodies produced against the milk protein during
    the first year of life, the researchers speculate, also attack and
    destroy the pancreas in a so-called auto-immune reaction, producing
    diabetes in people whose genetic makeup leaves them vulnerable." "...142
    Finnish children with newly diagnosed diabetes. They found that every
    one had at least eight times as many antibodies against the milk protein
    as did healthy children, clear evidence that the children had a raging
    auto immune disorder." The team has now expanded the study to 400
    children and is starting a trial where 3,000 children will receive no
    dairy products during the first nine months of life. "The study may take
    10 years, but we'll get a definitive answer one way or the other,"
    according to one of the researchers. I would caution them to be certain
    that the breast feeding mothers use on cows' milk in their diets or the
    results will be confounded by the transmission of the cows' milk protein
    in the mother's breast milk.... Now what was the reaction from the
    diabetes association? This is very interesting! Dr. F. Xavier Pi-Sunyer,
    the president of the association says: "It does not mean that children
    should stop drinking milk or that parents of diabetics should withdraw
    dairy products. These are rich sources of good protein." (Emphasis
    added) My God, it's the "good protein" that causes the problem! Do you
    suspect that the dairy industry may have helped the American Diabetes
    Association in the past?

    LEUKEMIA? LYMPHOMA? THIS MAY BE THE WORST--BRACE YOURSELF!

    I hate to tell you this, but the bovine leukemia virus is found in more
    than three of five dairy cows in the United States! This involves about
    80% of dairy herds. Unfortunately, when the milk is pooled, a very large
    percentage of all milk produced is contaminated (90 to 95 per cent). Of
    course the virus is killed in pasteurisation--if the pasteurisation was
    done correctly. What if the milk is raw? In a study of randomly
    collected raw milk samples the bovine leukemia virus was recovered from
    two-thirds. I sincerely hope that the raw milk dairy herds are carefully
    monitored when compared to the regular herds. (Science 1981; 213:1014).

    This is a world-wide problem. One lengthy study from Germany deplored
    the problem and admitted the impossibility of keeping the virus from
    infected cows' milk from the rest of the milk. Several European
    countries, including Germany and Switzerland, have attempted to "cull"
    the infected cows from their herds. Certainly the United States must be
    the leader in the fight against leukemic dairy cows, right? Wrong! We
    are the worst in the world with the former exception of Venezuela
    according to Virgil Hulse MD, a milk specialist who also has a B.S. in
    Dairy Manufacturing as well as a Master's degree in Public Health.

    As mentioned, the leukemia virus is rendered inactive by pasteurisation.
    Of course. However, there can be Chernobyl like accidents. One of these
    occurred in the Chicago area in April, 1985. At a modern, large, milk
    processing plant an accidental "cross connection" between raw and
    pasteurized milk occurred. A violent salmonella outbreak followed,
    killing 4 and making an estimated 150,000 ill. Now the question I would
    pose to the dairy industry people is this: "How can you assure the
    people who drank this milk that they were not exposed to the ingestion
    of raw, unkilled, bully active bovine leukemia viruses?" Further, it
    would be fascinating to know if a "cluster" of leukemia cases blossoms
    in that area in 1 to 3 decades. There are reports of "leukemia clusters"
    elsewhere, one of them mentioned in the June 10, 1990 San Francisco
    Chronicle involving Northern California.

    What happens to other species of mammals when they are exposed to the
    bovine leukemia virus? It's a fair question and the answer is not
    reassuring. Virtually all animals exposed to the virus develop leukemia.
    This includes sheep, goats, and even primates such as rhesus monkeys and
    chimpanzees. The route of transmission includes ingestion (both
    intravenous and intramuscular) and cells present in milk. There are
    obviously no instances of transfer attempts to human beings, but we know
    that the virus can infect human cells in vitro. There is evidence of
    human antibody formation to the bovine leukemia virus; this is
    disturbing. How did the bovine leukemia virus particles gain access to
    humans and become antigens? Was it as small, denatured particles?

    If the bovine leukemia viruses causes human leukemia, we could expect
    the dairy states with known leukemic herds to have a higher incidence of
    human leukemia. Is this so? Unfortunately, it seems to be the case!
    Iowa, Nebraska, South Dakota, Minnesota and Wisconsin have statistically
    higher incidence of leukemia than the national average. In Russia and in
    Sweden, areas with uncontrolled bovine leukemia virus have been linked
    with increases in human leukemia. I am also told that veterinarians have
    higher rates of leukemia than the general public. Dairy farmers have
    significantly elevated leukemia rates. Recent research shows lymphocytes
    from milk fed to neonatal mammals gains access to bodily tissues by
    passing directly through the intestinal wall.

    An optimistic note from the University of Illinois, Ubana from the
    Department of Animal Sciences shows the importance of one's perspective.
    Since they are concerned with the economics of milk and not primarily
    the health aspects, they noted that the production of milk was greater
    in the cows with the bovine leukemia virus. However when the leukemia
    produced a persistent and significant lymphocytosis (increased white
    blood cell count), the production fell off. They suggested "a need to
    re-evaluate the economic impact of bovine leukemia virus infection on
    the dairy industry". Does this mean that leukemia is good for profits
    only if we can keep it under control? You can get the details on this
    business concern from Proc. Nat. Acad. Sciences, U.S. Feb. 1989. I added
    emphasis and am insulted that a university department feels that this is
    an economic and not a human health issue. Do not expect help from the
    Department of Agriculture or the universities. The money stakes and the
    political pressures are too great. You're on you own.

    What does this all mean? We know that virus is capable of producing
    leukemia in other animals. Is it proven that it can contribute to human
    leukemia (or lymphoma, a related cancer)? Several articles tackle this
    one:

    1.Epidemiologic Relationships of the Bovine Population and Human
    Leukemia in Iowa. Am Journal of Epidemiology 112 (1980):80 2.Milk of
    Dairy Cows Frequently Contains a Leukemogenic Virus. Science 213 (1981):
    1014 3.Beware of the Cow. (Editorial) Lancet 2 (1974):30 4.Is Bovine
    Milk A Health Hazard?. Pediatrics; Suppl. Feeding the Normal Infant.
    75:182-186; 1985

    In Norway, 1422 individuals were followed for 11 and a half years. Those
    drinking 2 or more glasses of milk per day had 3.5 times the incidence
    of cancer of the lymphatic organs. British Med. Journal 61:456-9, March
    1990.

    One of the more thoughtful articles on this subject is from Allan S.
    Cunningham of Cooperstown, New York. Writing in the Lancet, November 27,
    1976 (page 1184), his article is entitled, "Lymphomas and Animal-Protein
    Consumption". Many people think of milk as “liquid meat” and Dr.
    Cunningham agrees with this. He tracked the beef and dairy consumption
    in terms of grams per day for a one year period, 1955-1956., in 15
    countries . New Zealand, United States and Canada were highest in that
    order. The lowest was Japan followed by Yugoslavia and France. The
    difference between the highest and lowest was quite pronounced: 43.8
    grams/day for New Zealanders versus 1.5 for Japan. Nearly a 30-fold
    difference! (Parenthetically, the last 36 years have seen a startling
    increase in the amount of beef and milk used in Japan and their disease
    patterns are reflecting this, confirming the lack of 'genetic
    protection' seen in migration studies. Formerly the increase in
    frequency of lymphomas in Japanese people was only in those who moved to
    the USA)!

    An interesting bit of trivia is to note the memorial built at the
    Gyokusenji Temple in Shimoda, Japan. This marked the spot where the
    first cow was killed in Japan for human consumption! The chains around
    this memorial were a gift from the US Navy. Where do you suppose the
    Japanese got the idea to eat beef? The year? 1930.

    Cunningham found a highly significant positive correlation between
    deaths from lymphomas and beef and dairy ingestion in the 15 countries
    analysed. A few quotations from his article follow:

    The average intake of protein in many countries is far in excess of the
    recommended requirements. Excessive consumption of animal protein may be
    one co-factor in the causation of lymphomas by acting in the following
    manner. Ingestion of certain proteins results in the adsorption of
    antigenic fragments through the gastrointestinal mucous membrane.

    This results in chronic stimulation of lymphoid tissue to which these
    fragments gain access "Chronic immunological stimulation causes
    lymphomas in laboratory animals and is believed to cause lymphoid
    cancers in men." The gastrointestinal mucous membrane is only a partial
    barrier to the absorption of food antigens, and circulating antibodies
    to food protein is commonplace especially potent lymphoid stimulants.
    Ingestion of cows' milk can produce generalized lymphadenopathy,
    hepatosplenomegaly, and profound adenoid hypertrophy. It has been
    conservatively estimated that more than 100 distinct antigens are
    released by the normal digestion of cows' milk which evoke production of
    all antibody classes [This may explain why pasteurized, killed viruses
    are still antigenic and can still cause disease.

    Here's more. A large prospective study from Norway was reported in the
    British Journal of Cancer 61 (3):456-9, March 1990. (Almost 16,000
    individuals were followed for 11 and a half years). For most cancers
    there was no association between the tumour and milk ingestion. However,
    in lymphoma, there was a strong positive association. If one drank two
    glasses or more daily (or the equivalent in dairy products), the odds
    were 3.4 times greater than in persons drinking less than one glass of
    developing a lymphoma.

    There are two other cow-related diseases that you should be aware of. At
    this time they are not known to be spread by the use of dairy products
    and are not known to involve man. The first is bovine spongiform
    encephalopathy (BSE), and the second is the bovine immunodeficiency
    virus (BIV). The first of these diseases, we hope, is confined to
    England and causes cavities in the animal's brain. Sheep have long been
    known to suffer from a disease called scrapie. It seems to have been
    started by the feeding of contaminated sheep parts, especially brains,
    to the British cows. Now, use your good sense. Do cows seem like
    carnivores? Should they eat meat? This profit-motivated practice
    backfired and bovine spongiform encephalopathy, or Mad Cow Disease,
    swept Britain. The disease literally causes dementia in the unfortunate
    animal and is 100 per cent incurable. To date, over 100,000 cows have
    been incinerated in England in keeping with British law. Four hundred to
    500 cows are reported as infected each month. The British public is
    concerned and has dropped its beef consumption by 25 per cent, while
    some 2,000 schools have stopped serving beef to children. Several
    farmers have developed a fatal disease syndrome that resembles both BSE
    and CJD (Creutzfeldt-Jakob-Disease). But the British Veterinary
    Association says that transmission of BSE to humans is "remote."

    The USDA agrees that the British epidemic was due to the feeding of
    cattle with bonemeal or animal protein produced at rendering plants from
    the carcasses of scrapie-infected sheep. The have prohibited the
    importation of live cattle and zoo ruminants from Great Britain and
    claim that the disease does not exist in the United States. However,
    there may be a problem. "Downer cows" are animals who arrive at auction
    yards or slaughter houses dead, trampled, lacerated, dehydrated, or too
    ill from viral or bacterial diseases to walk. Thus they are "down." If
    they cannot respond to electrical shocks by walking, they are dragged by
    chains to dumpsters and transported to rendering plants where, if they
    are not already dead, they are killed. Even a "humane" death is usually
    denied them. They are then turned into protein food for animals as well
    as other preparations. Minks that have been fed this protein have
    developed a fatal encephalopathy that has some resemblance to BSE.
    Entire colonies of minks have been lost in this manner, particularly in
    Wisconsin. It is feared that the infective agent is a prion or slow
    virus possible obtained from the ill "downer cows."

    The British Medical Journal in an editorial whimsically entitled "How
    Now Mad Cow?" (BMJ vol. 304, 11 Apr. 1992:929-30) describes cases of BSE
    in species not previously known to be affected, such as cats. They admit
    that produce contaminated with bovine spongiform encephalopathy entered
    the human food chain in England between 1986 and 1989. They say. "The
    result of this experiment is awaited." As the incubation period can be
    up to three decades, wait we must.

    The immunodeficency virus is seen in cattle in the United States and is
    more worrisome. Its structure is closely related to that of the human
    AIDS virus. At this time we do not know if exposure to the raw BIV
    proteins can cause the sera of humans to become positive for HIV. The
    extent of the virus among American herds is said to be "widespread".
    (The USDA refuses to inspect the meat and milk to see if antibodies to
    this retrovirus is present). It also has no plans to quarantine the
    infected animals. As in the case of humans with AIDS, there is no cure
    for BIV in cows. Each day we consume beef and diary products from cows
    infected with these viruses and no scientific assurance exists that the
    products are safe. Eating raw beef (as in steak Tartare) strikes me as
    being very risky, especially after the Seattle E. coli deaths of 1993.

    A report in the Canadian Journal of Veterinary Research, October 1992,
    Vol. 56 pp.353-359 and another from the Russian literature, tell of a
    horrifying development. They report the first detection in human serum
    of the antibody to a bovine immunodeficiency virus protein. In addition
    to this disturbing report, is another from Russia telling us of the
    presence of virus proteins related to the bovine leukemia virus in 5 of
    89 women with breast disease (Acta Virologica Feb. 1990 34(1): 19-26).
    The implications of these developments are unknown at present. However,
    it is safe to assume that these animal viruses are unlikely to "stay" in
    the animal kingdom.

    OTHER CANCERS--DOES IT GET WORSE?

    Unfortunately it does. Ovarian cancer--a particularly nasty tumour--was
    associated with milk consumption by workers at Roswell Park Memorial
    Institute in Buffalo, New York. Drinking more than one glass of whole
    milk or equivalent daily gave a woman a 3.1 times risk over non-milk
    users. They felt that the reduced fat milk products helped reduce the
    risk. This association has been made repeatedly by numerous
    investigators.

    Another important study, this from the Harvard Medical School, analyzed
    data from 27 countries mainly from the 1970s. Again a significant
    positive correlation is revealed between ovarian cancer and per capita
    milk consumption. These investigators feel that the lactose component of
    milk is the responsible fraction, and the digestion of this is
    facilitated by the persistence of the ability to digest the lactose
    (lactose persistence) - a little different emphasis, but the same
    conclusion. This study was reported in the American Journal of
    Epidemiology 130 (5): 904-10 Nov. 1989. These articles come from two of
    the country's leading institutions, not the Rodale Press or Prevention
    Magazine.

    Even lung cancer has been associated with milk ingestion? The beverage
    habits of 569 lung cancer patients and 569 controls again at Roswell
    Park were studied in the International Journal of Cancer, April 15,
    1989. Persons drinking whole milk 3 or more times daily had a 2-fold
    increase in lung cancer risk when compared to those never drinking whole
    milk.

    For many years we have been watching the lung cancer rates for Japanese
    men who smoke far more than American or European men but who develop
    fewer lung cancers. Workers in this research area feel that the total
    fat intake is the difference.

    There are not many reports studying an association between milk
    ingestion and prostate cancer. One such report though was of great
    interest. This is from the Roswell Park Memorial Institute and is found
    in Cancer 64 (3): 605-12, 1989. They analyzed the diets of 371 prostate
    cancer patients and comparable control subjects:

    Men who reported drinking three or more glasses of whole milk daily had
    a relative risk of 2.49 compared with men who reported never drinking
    whole milk the weight of the evidence appears to favour the hypothesis
    that animal fat is related to increased risk of prostate cancer.
    Prostate cancer is now the most common cancer diagnosed in US men and is
    the second leading cause of cancer mortality.

    WELL, WHAT ARE THE BENEFITS?

    Is there any health reason at all for an adult human to drink cows'
    milk?

    It's hard for me to come up with even one good reason other than simple
    preference. But if you try hard, in my opinion, these would be the best
    two: milk is a source of calcium and it's a source of amino acids
    (proteins).

    Let's look at the calcium first. Why are we concerned at all about
    calcium? Obviously, we intend it to build strong bones and protect us
    against osteoporosis. And no doubt about it, milk is loaded with
    calcium. But is it a good calcium source for humans? I think not. These
    are the reasons. Excessive amounts of dairy products actually interfere
    with calcium absorption. Secondly, the excess of protein that the milk
    provides is a major cause of the osteoporosis problem. Dr. H egsted in
    England has been writing for years about the geographical distribution
    of osteoporosis. It seems that the countries with the highest intake of
    dairy products are invariably the countries with the most osteoporosis.
    He feels that milk is a cause of osteoporosis. Reasons to be given
    below.

    Numerous studies have shown that the level of calcium ingestion and
    especially calcium supplementation has no effect whatever on the
    development of osteoporosis. The most important such article appeared
    recently in the British Journal of Medicine where the long arm of our
    dairy industry can't reach. Another study in the United States actually
    showed a worsening in calcium balance in post-menopausal women given
    three 8-ounce glasses of cows' milk per day. (Am. Journal of Clin.
    Nutrition, 1985). The effects of hormone, gender, weight bearing on the
    axial bones, and in particular protein intake, are critically important.
    Another observation that may be helpful to our analysis is to note the
    absence of any recorded dietary deficiencies of calcium among people
    living on a natural diet without milk.

    For the key to the osteoporosis riddle, donÂ’t look at calcium, look at
    protein. Consider these two contrasting groups. Eskimos have an
    exceptionally high protein intake estimated at 25 percent of total
    calories. They also have a high calcium intake at 2,500 mg/day. Their
    osteoporosis is among the worst in the world. The other instructive
    group are the Bantus of South Africa. They have a 12 percent protein
    diet, mostly p lant protein, and only 200 to 350 mg/day of calcium,
    about half our women's intake. The women have virtually no osteoporosis
    despite bearing six or more children and nursing them for prolonged
    periods! When African women immigrate to the United States, do they
    develop osteoporosis? The answer is yes, but not quite are much as
    Caucasian or Asian women. Thus, there is a genetic difference that is
    modified by diet.

    To answer the obvious question, "Well, where do you get your calcium?"
    The answer is: "From exactly the same place the cow gets the calcium,
    from green things that grow in the ground," mainly from leafy
    vegetables. After all, elephants and rhinos develop their huge bones
    (after being weaned) by eating green leafy plants, so do horses.
    Carnivorous animals also do quite nicely without leafy plants. It seems
    that all of earth's mammals do well if they live in harmony with their
    genetic programming and natural food. Only humans living an affluent
    life style have rampant osteoporosis.

    If animal references do not convince you, think of the several billion
    humans on this earth who have never seen cows' milk. Wouldn't you think
    osteoporosis would be prevalent in this huge group? The dairy people
    would suggest this but the truth is exactly the opposite. They have far
    less than that seen in the countries where dairy products are commonly
    consumed. It is the subject of another paper, but the truly significant
    determinants of osteoporosis are grossly excessive protein intakes and
    lack of weight bearing on long bones, both taking place over decades.
    Hormones play a secondary, but not trivial role in women. Milk is a
    deterrent to good bone health.

    THE PROTEIN MYTH

    Remember when you were a kid and the adults all told you to "make sure
    you get plenty of good protein". Protein was the nutritional "good
    guy”" when I was young. And of course milk is fitted right in.

    As regards protein, milk is indeed a rich source of protein--"liquid
    meat," remember? However that isn't necessarily what we need. In actual
    fact it is a source of difficulty. Nearly all Americans eat too much
    protein.

    For this information we rely on the most authoritative source that I am
    aware of. This is the latest edition (1oth, 1989: 4th printing, Jan.
    1992) of the Recommended Dietary Allowances produced by the National
    Research Council. Of interest, the current editor of this important work
    is Dr. Richard Havel of the University of California in San Francisco.

    First to be noted is that the recommended protein has been steadily
    revised downward in successive editions. The current recommendation is
    0.75 g/kilo/day for adults 19 through 51 years. This, of course, is only
    45 grams per day for the mythical 60 kilogram adult. You should also
    know that the WHO estimated the need for protein in adults to by.6g/kilo
    per day. (All RDA's are calculated with large safety allowances in case
    you're the type that wants to add some more to "be sure.") You can "get
    by" on 28 to 30 grams a day if necessary!

    Now 45 grams a day is a tiny amount of protein. That's an ounce and a
    half! Consider too, that the protein does not have to be animal protein.
    Vegetable protein is identical for all practical purposes and has no
    cholesterol and vastly less saturated fat. (Do not be misled by the
    antiquated belief that plant proteins must be carefully balanced to
    avoid deficiencies. This is not a realistic concern.) Therefore
    virtually all Americans, Canadians, British and European people are in a
    protein overloaded state. This has serious consequences when maintained
    over decades. The problems are the already mentioned osteoporosis,
    atherosclerosis and kidney damage. There is good evidence that certain
    malignancies, chiefly colon and rectal, are related to excessive meat
    intake. Barry Brenner, an eminent renal physiologist was the first to
    fully point out the dangers of excess protein for the kidney tubule. The
    dangers of the fat and cholesterol are known to all. Finally, you should
    know that the protein content of human milk is amount the lowest (0.9%)
    in mammals.

    IS THAT ALL OF THE TROUBLE?

    Sorry, there's more. Remember lactose? This is the principal
    carbohydrate of milk. It seems that nature provides new-borns with the
    enzymatic equipment to metabolize lactose, but this ability often
    extinguishes by age 4 or 5 years.

    What is the problem with lactose or milk sugar? It seems that it is a
    disaccharide which is too large to be absorbed into the blood stream
    without first being broken down into monosaccharides, namely galactose
    and glucose. This requires the presence of an enzyme, lactase plus
    additional enzymes to break down the galactose into glucose.

    Let's think about his for a moment. Nature gives us the ability to
    metabolize lactose for a few years and then shuts off the mechanism. Is
    Mother Nature trying to tell us something? Clearly all infants must
    drink milk. The fact that so many adults cannot seems to be related to
    the tendency for nature to abandon mechanisms that are not needed. At
    least half of the adult humans on this earth are lactose intolerant. It
    was not until the relatively recent introduction of dairy herding and
    the ability to "borrow" milk from another group of mammals that the
    survival advantage of preserving lactase (the enzyme that allows us to
    digest lactose) became evident. But why would it be advantageous to
    drink cows' milk? After all, most of the human beings in the history of
    the world did. And further, why was it just the white or light skinned
    humans who retained this knack while the pigmented people tended to lose
    it?

    Some students of evolution feel that white skin is a fairly recent
    innovation, perhaps not more than 20,000 or 30,000 years old. It clearly
    has to do with the Northward migration of early man to cold and
    relatively sunless areas when skins and clothing became available. Fair
    skin allows the production of Vitamin D from sunlight more readily than
    does dark skin. However, when only the face was exposed to sunlight that
    area of fair skin was insufficient to provide the vitamin D from
    sunlight. If dietary and sunlight sources were poorly available, the
    ability to use the abundant calcium in cows' milk would give a survival
    advantage to humans who could digest that milk. This seems to be the
    only logical explanation for fair skinned humans having a high degree of
    lactose tolerance when compared to dark skinned people.

    How does this break down? Certain racial groups, namely blacks are up to
    90% lactose intolerant as adults. Caucasians are 20 to 40% lactose
    intolerant. Orientals are midway between the above two groups. Diarrhea,
    gas and abdominal cramps are the results of substantial milk intake in
    such persons. Most American Indians cannot tolerate milk. The milk
    industry admits that lactose intolerance plays intestinal havoc with as
    many as 50 million Americans. A lactose-intolerance industry has sprung
    up and had sales of $117 million in 1992 (Time May 17, 1993.)

    What if you are lactose-intolerant and lust after dairy products? Is all
    lost? Not at all. It seems that lactose is largely digested by bacteria
    and you will be able to enjoy your cheese despite lactose intolerance.
    Yogurt is similar in this respect. Finally, and I could never have
    dreamed this up, geneticists want to splice genes to alter the
    composition of milk (Am J Clin Nutr 1993 Suppl 302s).

    One could quibble and say that milk is totally devoid of fiber content
    and that its habitual use will predispose to constipation and bowel
    disorders.

    The association with anemia and occult intestinal bleeding in infants is
    known to all physicians. This is chiefly from its lack of iron and its
    irritating qualities for the intestinal mucosa. The pediatric literature
    abounds with articles describing irritated intestinal lining, bleeding,
    increased permeability as well as colic, diarrhea and vomiting in
    cows'milk-sensitive babies. The anemia gets a double push by loss of
    blood and iron as well as deficiency of iron in the cows' milk. Milk is
    also the leading cause of childhood allergy.

    LOW FAT

    One additional topic: the matter of "low fat" milk. A common and sincere
    question is: "Well, low fat milk is OK, isn't it?"

    The answer to this question is that low fat milk isn't low fat. The term
    "low fat" is a marketing term used to gull the public. Low fat milk
    contains from 24 to 33% fat as calories! The 2% figure is also
    misleading. This refers to weight. They don't tell you that, by weight,
    the milk is 87% water!

    "Well, then, kill-joy surely you must approve of non-fat milk!" I hear
    this quite a bit. (Another constant concern is: "What do you put on your
    cereal?") True, there is little or no fat, but now you have a relative
    overburden of protein and lactose. It there is something that we do not
    need more of it is another simple sugar-lactose, composed of galactose
    and glucose. Millions of Americans are lactose intolerant to boot, as
    noted. As for protein, as stated earlier, we live in a society that
    routinely ingests far more protein than we need. It is a burden for our
    bodies, especially the kidneys, and a prominent cause of osteoporosis.
    Concerning the dry cereal issue, I would suggest soy milk, rice milk or
    almond milk as a healthy substitute. If you're still concerned about
    calcium, "Westsoy" is formulated to have the same calcium concentration
    as milk.

    SUMMARY

    To my thinking, there is only one valid reason to drink milk or use milk
    products. That is just because we simply want to. Because we like it and
    because it has become a part of our culture. Because we have become
    accustomed to its taste and texture. Because we like the way it slides
    down our throat. Because our parents did the very best they could for us
    and provided milk in our earliest training and conditioning. They taught
    us to like it. And then probably the very best reason is ice cream! I've
    heard it described "to die for".

    I had one patient who did exactly that. He had no obvious vices. He
    didn't smoke or drink, he didnÂ’t eat meat, his diet and lifestyle was
    nearly a perfectly health promoting one; but he had a passion. You
    guessed it, he loved rich ice cream. A pint of the richest would be a
    lean day's ration for him. On many occasions he would eat an entire
    quart -and yes there were some cookies and other pastries. Good ice
    cream deserves this after all. He seemed to be in good health despite
    some expected "middle age spread" when he had a devastating stroke which
    left him paralyzed, miserable and helpless, and he had additional
    strokes and d ied several years later never having left a hospital or
    rehabilitation unit. Was he old? I don't think so. He was in his 50s.

    So don't drink milk for health. I am convinced on the weight of the
    scientific evidence that it does not "do a body good." Inclusion of milk
    will only reduce your diet's nutritional value and safety.

    Most of the people on this planet live very healthfully without cows'
    milk. You can too.

    It will be difficult to change; we've been conditioned since childhood
    to think of milk as "nature's most perfect food." I'll guarantee you
    that it will be safe, improve your health and it won't cost anything.
    What can you lose?

      (Article courtesty of Dr. Kradjian and http://www.afpafitness.com/articles/MILKDOC.HTM)





    Offline parentsfortruth

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    Regarding food and expenses.
    « Reply #20 on: September 15, 2010, 01:01:05 PM »
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  • Cathmom,

    I may not have seven children yet, but I am in a similar situation, so being really rabid when saying that I'm overly obsessing about what goes into my body is very judgmental.  

    Since we're talking about how much we make now, we make less than $30,000. I have five children, and one is mainly still nursing.

    I don't drink tap water. Ever. I get the reverse osmosis water (which takes the vast majority of contaminants out of the water) from the store for 30 cents a gallon. I know what's in the water. I also know that not all of it can be taken out (not even all the fluoride, no matter what kind of filter you have.) I know what they add at the plant, and what people flush down the toilet. I know that the medication people are flushing gets into the water, and that's why I don't drink it, and certainly not my children.

    I live in a "marginal neighborhood," where, if you go a few blocks away, there are a couple of gang houses. When you talk about protecting souls, and that we must be worried about that, I do my best. I homeschool, and I try to go to daily Mass. What I read (and perhaps, forgive me, inferred) is that I should be more concerned about the salvation of the souls that God has put me in charge of,  than what they put in their bodies, and if you read anything that I have posted prior to this, you, perhaps, would see that it is my main focus, however, there is nothing wrong with keeping them away from contaminants I know could psychologically and physiologically damage them. Saying I "obsess" about these things is a very big exaggeration.

    For me, having to budget to be able to afford it was a very big task (considering, now, that perhaps even I have less money to work with than even you do), but if you adjust gradually, it makes it easier, at least from my experience. Doing it all at once before you know what brands are the most cost-efficient, is a very big headache, and one that I wouldn't recommend.

    I am not trying to point fingers at anyone here, and I believe it's tragic that people could have taken it that way. I'm trying to show you what I've researched, and hopefully it will make it a bit easier to make your decision about what you choose to eat.

    Writing off organic simply because it's more expensive, I believe, is a mistake. I'd rather spend $20 more on a product made by workers in the United States, or Wisconsin, even, so that my neighbor could keep his job, rather than buy the cheaper thing for much less and support some big corporation enslaving Chinese people.

    Most of the time, saying yes to organics is saying no to globalization, which has gotten the US in the mess it is in right now.

    Anyway, if I offended you, Alex, or Cathmom, I'm sorry. People say I am rather blunt, and my writing evidences that.
    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,

    Offline Alexandria

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    Regarding food and expenses.
    « Reply #21 on: September 15, 2010, 01:12:01 PM »
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  • PFT

    Being blunt is not the problem, it is your inability to comprehend that when people say that they have no money, that is what they mean, they have no money.  Don't interpret it to mean what it would mean to you; some people are just having a hard time eating and paying basic bills at the same time.   Some people live on a bit more than what you spend for food in a month.  






    Offline wallflower

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    Regarding food and expenses.
    « Reply #22 on: September 15, 2010, 02:17:46 PM »
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  • I don't think that wanting to go organic equals obsession. In a way we have to be "obsessed" nowadays because the food situation has gotten way out of control. We have to relearn everything. With the losses of the homestead and the stay-at-home mom, we have turned to mass production to support us, and with mass production comes additives that are not good for us in order to give food more shelf life. (A sandwich is not supposed to last 2 months! Ew!)

    This isn't limited to food either. It's a vicious circle that has gone too far but it's nearly impossible for many people to break out of it, precisely because breaking out of it is more expensive. The nasty chemical toxins used are cheap to produce in a factory, therefore cheaper to use in our food and personal care products, therefore cheaper on the shelf. It's cheaper to create a synthetic nauseating "vanilla" scented "air freshener" out of God knows what chemicals at a manufacturer's disposal than it is to actually sustain a vanilla farm and use true vanilla extracts. It's our reality.

    In the long run I think making the switch to more expensive natural foods and personal care products pays itself off (not that anyone is trying to avoid death, but the quality of life is certainly improved), but the problem is that it takes money up front to make many of these changes. We have been making changes around the house but it's slow going because we just don't have that money up front even though we can see that the changes save us in the long run.  

    Those who can need to vote with their dollars so that truly natural products can become cheaper with higher supply and demand, but there are many who cannot and who have to wait until that stuff is less expensive. Of course many don't change because they are lazy or stuck on bad habits or stubborn or ignorant, but I know there are some who simply can't afford it. We have to do the best we can and accept that this is the time God placed us in.



     


    Offline Cheryl

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    Regarding food and expenses.
    « Reply #23 on: September 15, 2010, 09:22:17 PM »
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  • Quote from: CathMomof7


    Gluttony: According to the Baltimore Catechism, gluttony involves more than just eating too much.  It also involves being overly concerned with our food--complaining because it's not what we want or what we think is "healthy".  Obesity falls under this category of course but so does anorexia.  Worrying about how many hormones are in our milk or how many pesticides are on our potatoes, in my opinion, is really treading closely here.  

    We should be more concerned with our souls getting to heaven than with our bodies living on this earth.  Of course, I don't mean we should neglect our bodies.  On the contrary, that too would be sinful.  We are only asked to do the best we can and be responsible.  God requires us to make reasonable choices.



    CathMomof7, I can't put my finger on it, can't explain it, but in the two quoted paragraphs above, there's more sense than in the piles of books I've ever read about health and nutrition.  Thank you!

    Offline parentsfortruth

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    Regarding food and expenses.
    « Reply #24 on: September 15, 2010, 09:26:25 PM »
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  • Quote from: Alexandria
    PFT

    Being blunt is not the problem, it is your inability to comprehend that when people say that they have no money, that is what they mean, they have no money.  Don't interpret it to mean what it would mean to you; some people are just having a hard time eating and paying basic bills at the same time.   Some people live on a bit more than what you spend for food in a month.  







    Years ago, if we were in dire straits financially, we could first go to our families, then the church, and if all else failed, we would go to the state for help.

    Nowdays it's all backwards. You have people first going to the government, hence, we have unbearably high taxes. This was by design, so that people would become dependent on the system.

    That being said, for people making less than what we make here, you would absolutely qualify for the government program foodshare.

    Your taxes are already paying for this "benefit." It makes no sense anymore to not take advantage of it if you can, because most of us have been supporting this program for some people that don't even need it, for many, many years, and it's about time, if you haven't looked into this option already, to take advantage of it.

    The government has been subsidizing the agricultural industry for years, keeping huge farm commodities down purposefully to get the food industry dependent on it.

    When I was growing up, my father had a heart attack at a shockingly early age (38). For years he suffered with a condition that was caused by Agent Orange (the same people that grow most of the conventional food, and own the seeds and "copyrights" on those genes in the seeds, by the way). For 15 years he fought with them, and by the grace of God, we made it through that time, being able to at least eat, if we had nothing else.

    With people losing their jobs, being underemployed, and having their standards reduced, more taxes being collected from average people by the prices rising on things, there is a good case for going and getting what you have been charged for all these years, hence, my belief that people are entitled to it.

    If the government is going to make these laws that make us dependent on their assistance despite our fighting to stop socialism, we might as well go after those programs whilst they're still there to take care of ourselves when we don't have enough.

    People need to stop being ashamed of going to get help when they need it, instead of biting someone's head off for alerting them to the dangers of what they put into their bodies, like it's the whistle blower's fault.
    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,

    Offline parentsfortruth

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    Regarding food and expenses.
    « Reply #25 on: September 17, 2010, 11:40:55 AM »
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  • Quote from: CathMomof7



    Gluttony: According to the Baltimore Catechism, gluttony involves more than just eating too much.  It also involves being overly concerned with our food--complaining because it's not what we want or what we think is "healthy".  Obesity falls under this category of course but so does anorexia.  Worrying about how many hormones are in our milk or how many pesticides are on our potatoes, in my opinion, is really treading closely here.

    We should be more concerned with our souls getting to heaven than with our bodies living on this earth.  Of course, I don't mean we should neglect our bodies.  On the contrary, that too would be sinful.  We are only asked to do the best we can and be responsible.  God requires us to make reasonable choices.


    I'd just like to know where you're getting this from. I tried to look it up myself, but I couldn't find it. Please provide your source so I can look at it myself. Thanks!

    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,


    Offline parentsfortruth

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    « Reply #26 on: September 17, 2010, 12:22:22 PM »
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  • For those of you that believe me to be obsessed....

    What if you were eating a food that contained a contraceptive in it due to cross pollination? What if you were pregnant, and had a miscarriage because of it? If you were eating GMO food, you wouldn't even realize what caused it, would you?

    I am not obsessed about it. We have a right to know. The farmers have a right to grow their own seeds. The people have a right not to be serfs for the corporations.



    If you have 12-13 extra minutes, just listen to this guy. Percy Schmeiser. He has been fighting a legal battle with Monsanto for years, because they found on his conventional field, Monsanto's "patented gene" in his plants. Since they own the patent on that gene, Monsanto sued him. Never once did this man use any of Monsanto's seeds. They blew in the wind, and a judge ruled that Monsanto OWNED his entire crop no matter if they were contaminated or not. Further, they took all the canola seeds this man and his wife have been saving claiming they, too, might contain the gene.

    This is a very serious issue. Towards the end of his talk, he talks about the plants that are being studied by the drug companies, and genetically modified to contain drugs like blood thinners (imagine if you just had surgery and ate a plant laced with this stuff!) contraceptives, and VACCINES!

    I wish some that accuse me of being overly concerned about my health would just look at the evidence instead of throwing accusations at me. It's not like I just found out about this or something. I've done a lot of research on this, and I'm telling you all this because you're human beings that have the Faith! You know what's been done to the Church. You know about the absolute corruption of the government.

    I'm telling you this in charity. I can give you tips on how to better be able to afford things, if you want, but don't dismiss me.

    I was poor growing up, and I am poor now (thank you God, because how much attention would I pay to Our Divine Lord if I had a lot of money? Only God knows. I really think it was in His wonderful Wisdom that He kept me poor). I'm pretty good at figuring out how to make things work with the little amount of money we do have.
    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,

    Online MaterDominici

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    Regarding food and expenses.
    « Reply #27 on: September 20, 2010, 12:59:18 AM »
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  • Quote from: wallflower
    Those who can need to vote with their dollars so that truly natural products can become cheaper with higher supply and demand, but there are many who cannot and who have to wait until that stuff is less expensive. Of course many don't change because they are lazy or stuck on bad habits or stubborn or ignorant, but I know there are some who simply can't afford it. We have to do the best we can and accept that this is the time God placed us in.

     


     :applause:
    I know people who fit into each of these catagories and do agree that those who can afford to do so should vote with their dollars. It seems to be many are doing just that ... there are way more options today than there were even just 10 years ago as far as what you can find that's good for you on your average supermarket shelf.
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline spouse of Jesus

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    Regarding food and expenses.
    « Reply #28 on: September 20, 2010, 01:31:30 PM »
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  •   before the invention of refrigators, nobody could eat a great variety of food. Some nations could never see an orange. And in places where oranges grew they couldn't eat it always (only in it's own season they could use anything). before the discovery of america, nobody in asia or europe ever tasted a tomato and many other fruits that grew only in america. nobody could export fruits from one Country to another.
      In buddhism eating animal flesh is forbidden. In many cultures milk used to be looked upon as babies food, so no adult could use cow milk. It was for the claf not for a man.
      How is it that they did survive?

    Online MaterDominici

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    « Reply #29 on: September 21, 2010, 01:33:06 AM »
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  • What discussions like this boil down to for me is not just "is it bad for you?", but rather, "how bad is it? -- especially compared to all of the other things which are also bad for you."

    If there were 1 or 2 or even a dozen things which are out there and should be avoided, it wouldn't take long for even the poorest of people to not have to deal with them as all of the average (or more) income families would simply stop buying what has proven to be bad for them. But, it's not that simple because today almost EVERYTHING has some element that isn't good for you. It goes way beyond food.

    We can easily prioritize SOME of the things which are known or suspiciously harmful. One method is if the potentially harmful item costs more and can be done without, just simply avoid it -- an example would be cell phones for most if not all people. Another target area is places where the opportunity to avoid something harmful is just as attainable as the harmful variety -- avoiding HFCS and MSG in any processed foods you use is approaching this point.

    After that, I'd need to know what things are the MOST harmful in order to decide which I might put money towards when/if I have it available. How do you know which is worse -- pesticide-laden produce or hormone-filled milk or contaminated tap water or lab-produced household cleaners or ... ??? The list goes on and on and even those with a bit of income to spare toward such things haven't a clue as to where they'd get the most bang for their measly buck.

    (As an aside, I received in the mail today the quarterly magazine from the college I attended. Their annual symposium this year is entitled "Food for Thought" including a lecture by Paul Roberts and showings of Super Size Me, Babette's Feast, and Food Inc.)
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson