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Offline shin

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Men and Women - Conference Notes
« on: December 09, 2013, 08:07:54 PM »
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  • I took notes, basically a transcription of some of the conferences on men and women from Sensus Traditionis.

    I know there's an interest in this subject, and there's not enough material out there. So I'm going to post my notes, for those that are interested. Caveat/Disclaimer -- they're notes, mostly transcription, no guarantees of accuracy of content or else, nor personal my own personal 100% agreement with any particular part of the content -- discern for yourself with responsibility.

    That said I think they're overall helpful and food for thought.

    Men

    The two principle duties of men are to:

    1. To Provide
    2. To Protect (not just wife and daughters, but also society)

    In the medieval period a woman had to live with her male relatives when single, unless all of them were dead, or she was at a venerable age. This was to protect her chastity. This is why St. Thomas considered [relations outside of wedlock] a violation even more greatly against the virtue of justice than the virtue of temperance, because when this crime was committed by a man against a daughter, it was a violation of justice against the father whose duty it is to protect the daughter's chastity. Of course it is her duty to do so too, but it is in fact, more primarily the father's.

    The father's headship is passed at the time of marriage, or death.. if the father died, she went and stayed with an uncle, or brother, something like that.. in order to preserve his honor. In fact in the medieval period the -only- women of child bearing years who lived alone were women of ill repute. The only ones. Which is a whole different mindset from where we are at today.

    Today, the percentage of women who are [impurely assaulted] by the time they get into or out of college, the numbers are over fifty percent now. So we're talking about something that is pretty serious, so you can see why the medievals actually saw that.

    Man's bodily make-up, his psychological make up is fundamentally different from women.

    Notably, however, today young boys have much of their masculinity beaten out of them at an early age.

    Modern studies show.. and you know, modern studies, we have to study what everyone knows, that is common sense..

    You will notice when men study something, they tend to tune everything else out. That is because men are designed to do this, and not multi-task.

    In war, that's a necessary thing. He has to be able to do that in war, because in war you have to be able to focus on what you are doing and not be paying attention to the bullets buzzing over your head.

    Well, and that's one of the signs that his principle function is to protect. Whereas women are designed to pay attention to a number of different things, but superficially, not in the same depth. And they can see this actually in brain stems.

    OK, and then of course to provide.

    Remember in the Old Testament the punishment for Adam was, 'now you have to provide for your wife, at the sweat of your brow, and by thorns.' And that's one of the reasons why Christ, the reason the father's say Christ was crowned with thorns, was to reverse the punishment of man's suffering when he works.

    But this providing, it used to be in the past. . . well today things are pretty easy.

    Most things men can do, women can do, but if you go back one hundred years ago that wasn't the case at all.

    Where are you going to find a women behind a plow, trying to guide two horses through a field?

    And when she's in war -- and they discovered this in the first Gulf War, because women who were in the war, simply shut down, they couldn't keep the noises and everything out of their head and focus on what they were doing. So the guys on the front lines have to protect her, because she's shutting down, so that becomes a bit of a problem.

    To provide and protect, there's a material side for this, and there's a spiritual side to this.

    The material side, providing, he has to bring home the bacon. He has to provide, food, etc. put things on the table. Because material providence, is rather a natural providence, and this also pertains to psychology, which we will talk about later.

    There are certain things he has to provide for the family psychologically that the woman is not capable of providing, and this we will talk about later.

    He has to protect on a natural level, and that deals with two different things. One thing, the bodily well being, basically of the family.

    He's stronger physically, generally, every once in awhile you of course wind up with the opposite, but normally.. Well the exception just proves the rule.

    Protected on a physical level from things that are harmful. The providence though is also spiritual, the protection is also spiritual..

    He has to bring home the food, and such, so the wife can take care of the children. If he's not it's extremely difficult for her to do so.

    As for his spiritual authority, it pertains to the father to determine the cult of the family.

    This authority is rooted in an office. An actual thing that is in him, that gives him a certain authority in relation to certain things. The office of father gives him a certain authority in relation to his children, and in relation to his wife, and certain duties.

    The office and authorities are always oriented towards the performance of some sort of obligation of duty.

    And that's very important for people to understand. The authority of a husband is -not- there for its own sake. It is not there for him.

    You will see this sometimes in families. The guy comes home from work, he sits on the couch, and meanwhile the wife is running around. She's been running around for fourteen hours already, and the guy is, 'bring me this, bring me that.' Well, excuse me, but this is inverted. Because as I mentioned in the last class, as St. Thomas says, everything in the home is entirely the responsibility of the husband. All of it. It's his job, it's his job.

    The reason God gave him a helper, not a slave, was to fulfill his job. It's his job to change the diapers, it's his job to make sure the children are fed, it's his job to make certain the children get to school on time. But God gave him a helper, and delegated to her certain things, based on the constitution and structure of her nature as a woman. So if she can't do it, he -has- to do it. He can't just sit there and get on her case.

    Doing the dishes, changing the diapers, etc. is the man's job. The wife is there to help the man.

    The office and authority is ultimately there to provide and protect for his wife and his children.

    So that means on the spiritual he has a certain authority and power, and that power --  that does not mean it's there just to tell his wife what to do, that's not what we're talking about. Although that is a certain element in it, because she has to be submissive to her husband. But again, she's not submissive for his sake, but she's submissive for the sake of the children, and for the sake of her obligations before God, to submit to the authority He has invested in the office of fatherhood and husband.

    It is for this reason that prayer, sufferings, and good works, offered God for the spiritual protection and providence of the family are of key importance, and pertains to the father, first and foremost to protect the children spiritually.

    That's his first job. His first job is not to go to work and make money. That is not his first obligation.

    His first obligation is to provide grace for his children and for his wife. That's his first obligation.

    Since he has the authority, the father more than the wife has the capacity to merit the grace for his wife to lead a wife of virtue. So, if you don't think the wife is virtuous -- well look in the mirror for awhile, if you're looking for the cause.

    Whenever a husband fails to pray, suffer, and do good works to merit graces for his family he fails in the most important task as a husband and father. In fact, he fails in the most essential aspect of masculinity.

    The true masculinity is ultimately there to provide and protect on a spiritual level for his family. That's what it's there for. And that's real important, because sometimes you will find guys who abdicate the responsibility of correcting their children for example.

    They'll be negligent in protecting them. When the father sees a moral or spiritual fault in his wife or children, he fails to provide for them if he merely temporally admonishes them. In other words, if he tells her, 'Look you should not be doing that.' or he tells the children, 'Look I do not want you doing this.' If he only does that, there's negligence there. Now he does have an obligation to do that, but there's negligence. Once he sees the defects he must spiritually do what he can to merit the grace as well as to direct and govern his wife and children through his legitimate commands to lead them to virtue.

    He must lead them spiritually not only by not allowing things like impure media and false religions media to enter into the minds and senses of his minds and children, but by praying and suffering and offering good works to keep the demonic away from his family.

    So this spiritual protection is moral, and then also supernatural. By providing grace.

    So he has an obligation to provide for them morally by giving them knowledge, and an atmosphere by which they are able to lead a good and moral life. He has to provide for them supernaturally by giving them grace.

    Which is why when you see a guy who does not have the virtue of mortification, he is just effeminiate. Because he doesn't have the self-denial that is required to provide and protect. Because remember these are difficult things, part of the punishment, he is going to have to suffer if he is actually going to provide for his wife and his family. If he doesn't have the mortification, if he is attached to pleasure -- he is stuck in the age of fifteen or sixteen, why? Because as he goes through puberty.. it takes a couple years to achieve maturation.. pursuit of pleasure arrests the maturation process.

    There are two ways to mature: pain and responsibility. The guy is attached to his pleasure -- that's neither. He doesn't pursue things that are arduous and difficult, so he doesn't grow older, because he can't deny himself. Because basically what growing up means is attainment of virtue. He hasn't attained mortification through the process of attaining to work.

    He hasn't taken responsibility, because a guy who's stuck in pleasure isn't interested in responsibility.

    He has to suffer and deny himself. So not only he has to provide grace, he has to provide knowledge of what is right and wrong.

    And part of this pertains to the cult. It's his obligation to see that before God, people are going to Mass. It's his responsibility to make sure the children are learning how to pray, and that his wife is praying. It's his responsibility.

    The wife has a responsibility as well, but it's subordinated to his.

    Then there's spiritual protection, and this has to do on moral level, by basically keeping things that are occasions of sin out of the family.

    He has to make sure those are -not- there.

    Usually that means a lot of different things on lot of different levels, that means he has to be a man of virtue.

    I tell these men [who are looking at good looking women], 'Look, she might be good looking, but if she's lacking in virtue, you are going to pay for it, for the rest of your life.'

    But even if she's not good looking. . . If she has virtue, it does not matter, you will be happy the rest of your life.

    And that ability to see the virtue and the value of virtue, like begets like. If a man is virtuous, the physiological appearance of the woman is truly secondary. He is truly only interested in -- is this woman virtuous enough to be my wife, and make a good mother to my children.

    But if he is not, if he is arrested in this immaturity state of 15, even if he's 35, he is only going to pursue pleasure, and beauty enhances the pleasure, so that is what he is going to be interested in and not the virtue.

    Because virtue tends to put the kibosh on a lot of the pleasure he's going to be looking for.

    But he's got to make sure that the occasions of sin are out of the family, and he's going not going to do that unless he's a man of virtue.

    But he also has to protect them spiritually from the demonic. And this is what most guys. . . do not do. In fact, my experience is that maybe one in fifty, does anything really, (and here I am talking about traditional Catholics) to make certain the demons are not affecting the wife, the children, and that type of thing by saying regular prayers, and they just simply deny that they are seeing patterns of behavior, see things in their experience..

    Usually the pattern is, if the guy is still arrested, in this case -- say at the age of 15 instead of 35.. what happens is he usually contracts certain kinds of habits of sin, which means if he comes to the marriage, he's bringing baggage.

    We're not just talking vice, we're talking demonic baggage. What happens is, that he, because of his sin, when he's at home, usually the sin won't stop. They won't stop, even if they are man and wife, and so what happens is they introduce these sinful behaviors into the family.

    The husband, because of his authority, more than anything else, because of this, opens the doors for the demons to be inserted into the family.. and it passes from generation to generation. Now the wife can do this too, but it is moreso the husband.

    Most guys actually pass the demonic baggage on to their children, rather than actually blocking them, and making certain it's not harming them.

    Again, this is why you -have- to have a virtuous husband. Because otherwise, you're going to pay. And it isn't going to be pretty.
    Sincerely,

    Shin

    'Flores apparuerunt in terra nostra. . . Fulcite me floribus.' (The flowers appear on the earth. . . stay me up with flowers. Sg 2:12,5)'-

    Offline shin

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    Men and Women - Conference Notes
    « Reply #1 on: December 09, 2013, 08:14:38 PM »
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  • [silence]

    Since the husband has been entrusted to spiritually protect his wife and children spiritually, the merits of his efforts to protect his children are more powerful than his wife's, not that she can't -- she also has to do it, but it's not going to have the same amount of impact -- unless -- she's holier, because she can if she's much holier than he is, but there's something to be said for that office. There's truly something to be said for it.

    Since the demons -must- respect the order of authority that God has established, the father enters more efficaciously into war with the demonic all other things being equal. If he and his wife are the same amount of holiness, for example.

    Ultimately the demons must submit to the spiritual authority that is established by God.

    Now here's something that they do, and this is with the husband, though usually it's the wife that in the marriage is worried about the communication issues. . . Part of his protection comes from the fact, that when the demons get into the marriage -- and they attack every marriage -- and by the time you're married, they know every nook and cranny of your defects. And when you get married, it doesn't get better, it gets worse, because then when you're around the person more frequently, they can drive certain things psychologically, and can say 'well now he's stuck'.

    They'll drive the defects of the persons', and what's the first thing they will do -- they will always disrupt communication. That's the first thing they know they -have- to do.

    It's really the husband's responsibility to see that communication is good, now granted the wife has certain natural dispositions that have much more facility in that regard, so he may want her to help with it and take certain cues from here, but the fact of the matter is, it's his responsibility.

    Now the second thing is, they do, is they jade a person's judgement. Because they can affect our imaginations. Now, say the wife walks in -- she hasn't done anything wrong, but they can affect things such as, 'I can't stand the way she talks anymore', or 'every time she comes out she belittles me', so he has to keep all of that out of the house, out of the home, and out of the relationship.

    He has to make sure that he's keeping them out, and if he's noticing there's a certain amount of judgement, and problems along that line.. he has to merit the grace through prayer and mortification to combat this, and take note that his judgement, or hers, is going to be affected.

    So.. Adam and Eve, ate the apple.. Eve, steps out from under the authority of Adam, takes the apple, eats it and hands it to him. Which means what? She steps outside of his spiritual protection, which meant that she became subject to demonic influence spiritually -- even after the fall -- and the way she regains that protection, spiritually is by submitting herself to her husband's office -- not to the guy -- but to the office.

    Just as we make a distinction between the bishop, the man, and the office of the bishop, or the priest. So it's the office. So, women, you're not being obedient to the guy that's a . . . you're being obedient to God. So don't be worried about it, you're being submissive to God.

    If she does that, she'll enjoy this authority structure God sets up, so she'll actually enjoy less demonic attack.

    And that's one of the reasons why if the husband really loves his wife, he'll want to subordinate her. Not in the sense of beating her over the head. . . No, I'm not talking about that level, but it's his responsibility to make sure the authority structure is maintained in his home.

    And too, making sure the children are subordinated to the wife, who has authority over the children.

    If he undermines that, it's impossible for him to maintain authority psychologically with his wife, to keep the wife understanding his authority, because he's already undermined it on another level.

    So a lot of times guys say, "I don't know why won't she do what I tell her?" Well there's probably something on your side you're not doing.

    Now that doesn't mean..  women -- because when Eve ate the apple, that introduced into the relationship on the side of the woman self dominance and will, and desire to control the husband. That's what it did.

    So then, what's Adam do? He takes the apple and eats it.

    Which meant what -- He capitulates his authority. He should have said, "You shouldn't have been eating that apple, you're on your own." [laughter]

    But he didn't. So this is why you get guys that are just irresponsible in their marriages. They don't maintain the authority structure in the home, they don't maintain the children being obedient to the wife and things of that sort.

    So then what happens, the Old Testament tells us: this is what you are stuck with. The New Testament... actually says through St. Paul: And this is how you overcome these problems.

    Women have to be submissive to their husbands and she'll undo the disorders of the flesh, this inclination, to try to control and dominate her husband.

    But if she does that, we're going to talk about this later -- she's going to be miserable.

    But if the husband is not legitimately the father, the husband, and the head of the household, he's also miserable. Because there's this natural inclination, this is something built into the nature of masculinity, if he doesn't do it, he's unhappy ultimately.

    This is why the feminist movement in our culture, as it destroys masculinity, it is why you rarely see boys smile anymore. They're unhappy. Because they can't be little men. Because they're just beat down, all the time.

    "Did you see how you made her feel?" "You should be crying." "You go over there." Etc.

    Now sometimes he has to be told to respect her feelings, but, they're just going through this perpetual sensitivity training. . .

    So St. Paul comes along and says to the husband.. that with the tendency with men, with original sin.. is to ignore their wife..

    And now if you really love her, you want the good for the other person, so if you really love her, you really ultimately want is your wife the plug into this structure so that she's happy, it fits her nature, and she'll be happy as lark. Now that doesn't mean there's not going to be other stuff there, it's not going to an easy process because of the self will arising from original sin, but if she can.. the husband, the way he's going to bring her into submission, is not by beating her over the head, he has to do certain things.

    To make sure, that she -wants- to submit to him. It's built into women, a natural inclination, to want to submit. What happens is the husband is usually a .. ., and doesn't do the things he's supposed to do, and so what happens is the law of the flesh kicks in and she just rebels. So that by the time she's fifty years of age... [it isn't pretty]

    So St. Paul says, the thing to keep this from happening is: you have to love her.

    If the wife sees that her husband really loves her, then very often if she's even a woman of average virtue, she'll do whatever he wants. Pretty much.

    She will submit. Because why? "Because she knows he loves me, so he'll never do anything evil or bad, and take care of me, so I can submit to him because I know he'll do right by me."

    If he doesn't love her, then he's not going to take of her, provide and protect her -emotionally-.

    Then he's not going to protect her psychologically either. Because he not only has to protect and provide for her psychologically by having a normal life of affection for her, but he also has to protect her from certain types of psychological damage, and certain things..

    If he really loves her, he will make sure that he will -totally- put himself aside to make sure he does right by her.

    He will not ignore his wife, leave she grow cold and dominating. Now here is the thing..

    Most.. the way women are psychologically designed.. -you pay attention to them- .. why?

    Eve.. took the apple and lead to Adam, why? It means she was looking for his approval, she was looking him to pay attention to her.. which means what?

    Women have this thing built in.. you pay attention to them.. they'll actually do what?

    They'll subordinate themselves to you.. or actually.. they won't grow cold and dominating.

    But if you don't.. this natural inclination grows frustrated, and often the woman may not even understand why, she'll just understand that she's not getting the admiration, she grows cold, and she gets nasty and dominating.

    Why -- here's the general thing, the general principle that states that if you're not getting what you want, you try to control things externally to you to get what you want.

    And that's what ends up happening.

    If the husband isn't feeding this natural inclination of hers for emotional union, things of affection and that sort, then she'll try to control him to get other things, from him.

    ...

    He will take into consideration her welfare, and the welfare of his children, above his own.

    In other words, if a man is perfectly a man, and think of St. Joseph, it's inconceivable of that guy -ever- putting himself and how he felt before Our Lady. Didn't happen.

    That's what a real man is. That's why I like St. Joseph, because he's a real man.

    You get these guys.. aahk.. You know... he has no self control, you don't even have control over your mouth..

    But the point is that. He'll totally put himself aside.

    If he -thinks- his wife is there -for him- he's got another thing coming, yes, she was created to be his helper, but what does that mean? It's so he can fulfill his obligations in raising his children before God, not for himself.

    So he'll put his welfare above his own. Now here we're talking about all levels -except- the spiritual level. Because the Church teaches us that our obligation is always to ourselves first spiritually.

    In the old wedding vows, it says, "The husband gives his life for his wife and children." Either by work, in other words by basically, pour his life out.. in the past, basically it meant putting your life on the line, by working in the mines, things of this sort.. and also for their protection, so part of providing protection, means all the way down to his life.

    That's what it means.

    He will consult her, and there's a reason for this.

    She has reason [laughter] And.. A lot of times women know better what's going on with the children, because she's around them so much.. Sometimes they'll have a better sense of it. Now other times, women will be too soft with the children, or other times they'll be too hard.. But the point is that, normally they are around the children so they will get a better sense of what the problem is with the little one.

    There's a saying.. The husband to the wife is like the soul to the body..

    Because..

    . . . It has many different levels . . . but it also means, you do not find a guy that never consults his body. Or if you do. . . he's in a rubber room, or he's dead, pretty quickly. . . If he ignores his body, he will end up in trouble.

    It's the same thing in marriage, if he does not consult her. . . does not mean he has to follow everything she suggests. . . but he should consult, because a lot of times she will see things he may not see.

    And, here's another reason, those who are subject to authority, find that when the authority ignores their well being or doesn't pay attention to their suggestions in any way whatsoever, they get the impression that the authority really doesn't care about what they think, how they feel, and what's really going on.

    Because, well, the troops.. . the commander is sitting up on a hill, the troops are down in the field.. the commander does not have a clue what is going on down in the field, and he gives an order. . . well it's going to go bad.

    Well, if the wife says, "Well, you do not want to do that because he's sick," and he still does it and the child winds up in the hospital or something -- well, you should have listened to your wife. The point is if that you don't listen to her, well eventually, what happens?

    She will not subordinate. Because if she knows "He listens to me, he pays attention to what my needs are, he knows that if I have a problem, he'll actually listen to me, and ask my advice, and take it seriously.." she'll end up following him.

    But if he doesn't listen to her, he's barking out commands, doesn't listen to her well being, essentially ignores how she feels and stuff like that, forget it. She's not going to be sticking around with him for very long, that is as far as the psychological side.

    It might be 'till death do they part' but she's already checked out.

    If she is like his body, he will bring her under his submission, but not for his benefit, but for hers. And for the sake of the children.

    The duty of the husband and father is essentially self-denial.

    It's sacrifice of self.

    Now the wife is also called to self-sacrifice too, but in a different way.

    But in his particular case, he's called to sacrifice -- because why? Now sacrifice is a hard and arduous thing. The reason why men are called to provide and protect is, it's physically hard. And God put in men psychologically the ability to ignore on the emotional level, so they can do things that are psychologically hard.

    And men of course, because men are more designed to operate according to reason rather than their emotions than women, we'll talk about why that's there, I think I actually already talked about that.. it's there so that she can actually guide the emotional life of the children, it's a good thing.. it means that for men, he is able to put aside human respect, things of that sort, and so because he follows reason more, he can actually do things that are more spiritual. . .

    Now one of the things that you are going to notice is, now the writers will even tell you this, more women attain holier positions than men.

    You just see it, a lot of times women seem to be getting a lot more grace than men. But the difficulty is, with women, since their life is more oriented towards the emotional life, they very often get off on the runway and then plateau out when it becomes time to subordinate the emotions, because that's horrible for them.

    Whereas men, just get the lazy lout [up and going] . . . spiritually is the hard part, but once he does that, he really excels because it's easier for him to subordinate his emotions, in other words, it's easier for him to obtain grace and virtue on that level.

    So it's harder in the beginning, easier in the end, and for women that's inverted.

    But these are all things that are spiritually hard, hard and difficult.. which means that the principle virtue towards which men are ordered is..

    Fortitude.

    For women it's temperance.. it's easier for a woman to be modest, because it's self protection..

    So actually women have a natural inclination, they tend to be softer, more gentile.. they're more temperate normally speaking..

    Now sacrifice, is a hard thing to do.

    Even though sacrifice pertains to justice.

    This is why, if a man is a real man, with fortitude.. mortification is a form of self sacrifice. He will sacrifice himself.

    It is because of this suitability of fortitude towards sacrifice, that men are called to be priests and not women. Among other reasons.

    St. Thomas says that the reason a woman isn't a priest is because she exercises the use of reason in a fundamentally different way than a man.

    . . . If a man is immature, he's only seeking pleasure, he's not going to be a man, he's going to be effeminate. What is effeminacy? An unwillingness to put aside what is pleasure to pursue the arduous. That is St. Thomas's formal definition.

    The reason masculinity is in crisis is because men are too effeminate, and the reason men are too effeminate is that men are too attached to pleasure.

    So, that's the problem there.

    Now here's the moral of the story. The guys that you are dating, if he can't keep his hands off you get away from him.

    Because it's a sign he's attached to his pleasure and he's -not- interested in denying himself, or -self sacrifice- for your well being. Which means that when -you- get married, he will not be a man. He will not take on his headship, you will not be happy because you will not plug into the authority structure, he's going to be subverting the whole thing because of his lack of. . . love.

    [a diversion about technological gadgets and pleasure, and how too many makes father nervous]

    Video games -- turn them off.

    Fortitude and self sacrifice, that's the type of man you want to look for.

    Okay.. any questions?

    Yes..

    [skipping a little, about 50 minutes in]

    As I said before -- you never do anything because your wife wants it, ever. You do it because you know it's going to make her happy.

    He has to practice self denial in according to her well being. And this you especially don't see in guys attached to pleasure. He just can't say no to himself, and that's one of the problems.

    He has to be able to practice self denial if he's ever going to govern you properly, otherwise he's just going use his authority for his own ends, you know you praise him a little bit. If he's immature, seeking pleasure, in the end.. he doesn't want you, he loves his pleasure. And that's what you have to be careful of.

    He has to be able to practice self denial in relationship with his wife because there is a natural law inclination to please him, and that has to be moderated. Otherwise what happens is, in the end, what pleases her, is the law of the flesh, which will dominate, which undermines his authority, which means he's not going to provide for the family, or protect you.

    The guy just does what his wife tells him to do... she is spiritually hung out to dry..

    [question]

    A guy is a man of prayer, you say, "Oh he's going to be a priest." but really if he's praying regularly, he would be a good husband. At least in most cases he's going to be able to provide for you.. prayer.. good penances, denying himself, if he fasts.. if he follows the Church's laws on Fridays, does these little penances..

    If he complains, he's effeminate because he's attached to his pleasure. So if you see he never complains and does things when it's hard and difficult..

    [question]

    When they say by spiritually responsible for yourself, your first responsibility is to save your own soul. Aside from that, it's moderated by your duties, your state in life.

    You have children, things have to be adjusted. . . because your spiritual obligation is to fulfil the obligations of justice to your children, to your wife.. if you neglect these for praying..

    It's the same thing with a priest in a certain sense.. sometimes you get these guys out of seminary, and they are really only interested in praying.. so, people are starving on the vine spiritually..

    The first obligation is to save your soul, above everything. That is the supreme law.

    Then the second thing is you have obligation to achieve the highest possible state spiritually that you can, and that comes, spiritually based on your state in life.

    So you fulfill those duties if your state in life.. and then what you do above and beyond that is pleasing to God. If you neglect the first, what you do extra is not pleasing to God.

    [question]

    A lot of times with generational spirits.. say a guy has a problem with chastity.. not necessarily the generational spirit against chastity.. a lot of times a guy has a problem with fear, depression, etc. and if you get rid of those, well the chastity issues disappear.

    But there's ways of dealing with that.. you just have to make sure that none of that gets past.

    If your potential spouse is habitually leading a life of grace, it's unlikely he has.. baggage, but if he has hard time staying in a state of grace, get away from him, because in the end he's going to take you down spiritually.

    [question]

    What does it mean to reason in a different way? Simple apprehension.. judgement.. and reason..

    The first is the same, but the judgement is different.. because why? Their phantasms and images in their imaginations are different. Why? Because it's affected by their emotions..

    The principles by which they judge are very different. Now that can have its place.. in the sense that when you're dealing with something that requires emotional empathy it has its place, but it can also blind judgement.

    Whereas men, if they're of average virtue.. and by the way this is not a defect in women, it's actually a natural inclination in women to think in this way, the brain is wired different.. and that's a good thing.. but, it has to be moderated.. if a guy has normal virtue, his images will be much clearer, generally speaking.

    Which is why he's supposed to be.. now all things being equal.. now actually if you find a woman more virtuous, sometimes she'll see more clearly than the guy can.. but he.. all things being equal.. his authority is ultimately to organize, to give order and govern, and you can only do this with knowledge.. (although modern politicians seems to have lost this idea) .. but knowledge depends on the image in your imagination, and if that image is affected by emotion, it will affect your knowledge, and therefor you can't govern..

    And this is why a man who is virtuous will govern according to right knowledge.. and use his authority in the right manner.

    [question]

    Q: The way society is going, regarding men, where does that leave our culture?

    A: Down the tubes. Well the way things are going.. ultimately. . because you don't have the men protecting the culture, on a spiritual level, like moral and that sort of thing..

    The point is, if they don't do these things, these things which are necessary to maintain governance.. then, it just slowly heads towards dissipation.. and society becomes unsustainable.

    No culture has ever been able to sustain this level of immorality ever in history. Ever.

    The point is.. that, without justice.. it's impossible to maintain materially.. eventually it just economically implodes.

    Now here's the thing. What most people don't know is a lot of cultures have just imploded because of contraception. No culture historically has ever survived contraception. Ever.

    What that means is, because of the immorality.. then what's happening the very fabric of society, the foundation is dissipating, and eventually it will implode. This is pure science. This is the way it works.

    The only reason we are maintaining it to any level that we have is because of -technology-. It's buying us a little more time.

    [question]

    Q: Where do the prayers, rosary, come in? There are a lot of people praying.. for this country.

    A: That's true.. but.. as the saying goes, as the Church goes, so does the world. And it's a mess.

    This one time I was at this meeting with a Catholic social scientist, and one of the guys was one of the Heritage Foundation is giving this lecture, and says the real problem in the Church today is the Mass.. and of course.. everybody at the table just looks at me.. [laughter].. This study was done..  [nearly all] Catholic couples are contracepting, and if they know what they're doing they are in a state of mortal sin, and they are traipsing up to receive Communion.. and that is sacrilege.. sacrilege is occurring every Sunday..

    Yeah it's true, a lot of people are praying, but the amount of praying that's required to offset the problem.. is.. quite frankly..

    [question]

    Okay, there's what they call mutual subjection.. in marriage.. but this, the Church has always understood in relationship to the marital debt -alone-. Now JPII says it doesn't just pertain to the marital debt, but in all matters.. Now St. Thomas says, you can't have order without a unified motive force.. that's called chaos.. so if you have two people in mutual subjection, then you end with chaos.. so just on a purely philosophical level, it can't stand..

    Now Leo XIII said, mutual subjection pertains only to the marital debt. And that was the consistent position. And here we're not talking about.. this whole discussion is not just a matter, well we kinda like that.. this is the consistent teaching of the theologians and fathers of the Church..

    The wife has to be subject in all matters save sin, except regarding the marital debt, is an infallible, nondefined teaching, that has always been taught by all the fathers everywhere.. so you can't just get around it because.. I think it's just romanticism.



    Sincerely,

    Shin

    'Flores apparuerunt in terra nostra. . . Fulcite me floribus.' (The flowers appear on the earth. . . stay me up with flowers. Sg 2:12,5)'-


    Offline shin

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    Men and Women - Conference Notes
    « Reply #2 on: December 09, 2013, 08:18:09 PM »
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  • Women


    Women (from the point of view of wife and mother)
    Based on Proverbs 31:10-31

    "Who shall find a valiant woman? far, and from the uttermost coasts is the price of her"
    "aleph mulierem fortem quis inveniet procul et de ultimis finibus pretium eius"

    We have to remember valor or strength here, is in virtue.
    Strength is in virtue, and a good wife is one in virtue.

    It does not matter if she is good looking, if she does not have any virtue you will pay for it for the rest of your life.

    From the scripture: "A beautiful woman with a rebellious disposition is like a gold ring in the snout of a pig."

    Nothing else matters if she does not have virtue. If she does not have virtue you simply will not have a happy life with her.

    The scripture means: Most women do not actively seek virtue. And most women are not strong women.

    They are rare. Who is going to find one?

    St. Thomas makes the observation we get a certain pleasure from thinking about ourselves. And since women tend to be more emotional by nature, women tend to be more inclined to think themselves fine.

    Now guys have problems with pride, their own sets of problems.
    But the above goes into Eve and her concern about her appearance. So that, even if she does not consider herself quite right -she does not want- to not consider herself not quite right. She has more of a problem with thinking of herself this way, than a man.

    To find a woman of virtue is the find of a lifetime. If you find a woman who is virtuous you will be happy for the rest of your life.

    Virtue is defined as a good habit.

    So a good woman is ultimately one who follows her reason, not her emotions. Now this is key. It doesn't mean emotions are bad.. Now, sometimes you'll hear about these emotionless women, and their children are just a mess.

    Women either make or break the general tenor of a household. The woman is not quite the center, God is the center, be she is kindof the pivot. Because the husband goes out, he works, he comes back. Home is the place she is going to be.. so if she becomes depressed, or angry, it tends to set the whole tone for the rest of the family. She's not the head, but she is in a certain sense the heart.

    If she isn't quite virtuous, the life of the household is going to be all over the map -- whereever her emotions may be.

    "The heart of her husband trusteth in her." The actual Latin is confidence, that is he confides in her. Confide doesn't have quite the same meaning.. What we are talking about, that, a man has a natural inclination to want to place his heart in his wife. Basically, give it to her.

    He loves her, and he wants her to have good things. If the woman is virtuous the man will have confidence and confide his heart to her, if she doesn't.. They just start cutting off communication and getting cold.

    If her emotions are all over the map.. well if he gives her his heart, it's going to get wounded because her emotions are all over the map, so eventually that stops.

    This is why virtue is so key.

    If he can't trust her, he won't give her his innermost life. This is why in the long term intimacy in a marriage is based on virtue.

    It does take more energy for a man to maintain a life of affection.
    The highest form of intimacy is mind and heart.
    A man will quickly lose heart in a marriage if she is not virtuous.

    There are two ways to break a  man's heart, basically. The first is by mistreatment. It comes, being angry, shouting, derogatory, things, but usually it arises from, just a natural inclination in men to govern the family.. and if his wife tries to dominate him, it will lead to mistreatment. If you're going to treat your husband like a 10 year old, do not expect him to treat you like an adult. His first inclination when a wife tries to dominate him, is to withdraw, and shut down. Why? Because any time someone wants to dominate you, you want to get away from them.
    The domination comes from a desire for control, that control is, Eve, saying here, Adam, eat the apple, and that is where it comes from.

    Ultimately there's a general principle, those who cannot control themselves, try to control everyone else. This is because, since they cannot control their own emotional life, they must require everyone else to fit to whatever their emotions are at the moment to be satisfied. In other words, if I can't control myself, I'm going to try to control you, to get out of you what I want. And this happens to a lot of women, as they get older, they get angry, and they try to control the guy to get out of him, what usually he didn't give them, because of the fact that they treated him terribly.

    Now a lot of time time this happens the other way around too.

    When she tries to dominiate she commits a sin against justice, specifically legal justice if you want it. The sin is called, usurpation.

    Basically what usurpation is, it's the sin in which someone tries to take authority in a situation in which they do not have a right.

    The natural upshot is going to be, he's just going to cut her off interiorly. This is what it boils down to.

    The irony is, most women can get anything in life out of their husband if they just do the things they know will soften him, which they usually don't.

    It's just the nature of it.

    Men have natural inclinations, when the women does the right things, they just kindof melt. But that requires what? Virtue. Because a lot of time you're not going to want to do those kind of things.

    This isn't talking about manipulation, this is just prudence. You just have to be kind.

    If a man has a good wife, other things don't mean as much to him, but if he does not, he will start looking towards other things, such as money, power, to occupy himself to some degree.
    "She shall render him good, not evil, all the days of his life."

    She won't nag him, she won't try to control him like a child. Now most guys, if they have any semblance of masculinity will work, and come back to a house that is properly arranged. Now there is a great joy a man takes in his wife who takes a good job at home. Even if she's not perfect -- he just loves it, because she's doing something he's the beneficiary of, and his children, and he sees she's trying to do good by him.

    "She hath sought wool and flax, and hath wrought by the counsel of her hands. She is like the merchant's ship, she bringeth her bread from afar."

    This is about providing for the family, and not about going out and getting a job, but about going to the marketplace and getting the things necessary for a home. In the past women had to make the clothing for her family.

    I'm a big fan of domestic arts being taught to women very young, so that when they become married they can actually please their husbands.

    Women couldn't work outside the home, if it weren't for one thing. One thing made feminism possible, and that's -- technology.

    Now in the Roman period feminism kindof had a rise, but that was because of money, you could have servants to do the work. But if you're talking about a normal culture, where there's not a lot of money, and there's no technology -- work at home is a major undertaking. Just doing the wash was a full blown, all day affair. It wasn't just two or three hours.. toss it in the machine, leave and go do something else.

    So that's one of the reasons we know feminism is an artificial construction. Because if it was a natural construction, a natural inclination -- it would have always been there. Women would never have had to work in the home that much. But that's not how it worked. Not how it got set up.

    Virtue is necessary, practical knowledge in domestic affairs is also necessary. Diligence will cause her to seek knowledge that she lacks -- it's not just, you know, I'm not going to bother to learn how to cook, you can just put up with the crock pot.. hamburgers and everything. She will actually try and learn.

    "And she hath risen in the night, and given a prey to her household, and victuals to her maidens."

    Two aspects of a good wife and virtue:

    1. Practicing self denial. Getting up in the middle of the night. So if she can't practice this, but expects to be waited for on hand and foot, don't marry her.

    For the sake of her husband and her family. A good wife if she's virtuous will actually want to make sure that she practices self denial to provide. Men have their own obligation of self denial, it's called work. And it's called not following your emotions when your wife follows hers. There's all different levels in which men have to follow self denial, and so too women.

    Men's form is more universal..  What this means is.. that the natural inclination for women is to want to make the guy, who would look at a number of different women, her own. She wants exclusive fidelity from her husband, not just on the level of the marital debt, but even at the level of his affections, concerns, etc.

    This is one reason why we know polygamy doesn't work. The reason the Mormons can have polygamy, is that the women operate under fear. Usually they have separate living arrangements too.

    The woman wants to determine the matters in the home that pertain to their common wife, she doesn't want someone else doing it, not some other guy, some other woman. This nesting principle is based on.. she wants the single affections of her husband, fidelity, and, it also has to do with children.

    Women have a better sense for arranging things for children, generally. This means they know how to take care of their children's surroundings, and they -do not- want another woman in the house trying to tell them how to do things differently.

    Men today because of effeminacy are succumbing to the nesting principle. It's a big problem. It's a problem among priests..

    Mother -- well, there are two sides. For all eternity, you're always going to be a mother.
    But there's a temporary side too, and that has to do with upbringing.

    The exact same problem that happens with women trying to control their husbands, happens with mothers trying to control their children after they reach their majority.

    If you find a woman who's very controlling of her husband, she has got to try to control her children, because she's got to try to control everything to make herself feel better. Well, it will be put under all sorts of guises, "Well, I'm just trying to make sure you do the right thing, or I'm just.. And you need to do this, this, and this and this.. " and all sorts of different excuses to try to control..

    I had a run in recently.. There's a particular culture that's matriarchal.. and the women try to completely try to control their spouses and their children..  In the end, these men never get off the ground.. She'll insist on being the primary woman in her son's marriage, and she's going to -hate- her daughter in law, because she's cutting in on her territory. This is -her- son.
    But the saying is, "you leave your father and mother" you "leave them" mothering is temporary.
    And this applies not just to guys that get married, it applies to priests too.

    Women spend most of the money in the household, aside from utilities on the house. A good woman makes sure she does not spend money based on appetite but on rational principles.
    Remember Eve takes the fruit -- it was pleasing to the sight. Women choose something based more on its pleasingness to them, rather based on its rational worth. A virtuous woman doesn't do that. Ultimately, it's 'do we need this, or not.'

    Eve basically gave women that desire to spend large amounts of money shopping, when she looked at that apple.

    She is wise in her spending and does not allow herself to be taken financially. She is pleasant and agreeable and able to be delt with. So part of the woman's job is to buy stuff for the home, the guy is too busy, he's out working.

    Women by nature have a softer heart. If you find a woman who is very hard and callous, it's a sign she's been wounded, or she doesn't have what she wants so she's in the whole domination thing.

    She has a warm heart, a genuine care for others, for the poor.

    "Her husband is honourable in the gates, when he sitteth among the senators of the land."
    It is a fact that a virtuous woman brings honor to her husband. What is honor? The perception on the side of someone else of excellance. If a guy has a virtuous wife, it brings him honor because they realize his wife is a thing of excellance.

    A viscious one brings sympathy, shame, and embarassment. It's that simple.

    If a woman is nasty and vicious all the other guys in the neighborhood, are like, "Yeah, got mine." But if she's virtuous, the guys will envy.

    A really virtuous woman makes her husband known.

    There are two sacrifices the husband and wife have to make getting married. He has to sacrifice looking at her for the sake of her beauty, and she has to sacrifice her beauty. For, let's face it, except in the case of a few women, having children isn't really good on a woman's physique. And a lot of people don't want to make that sacrifice.

    Virtue and beauty are her clothing. Virtue adorns her soul, and it's the thing that's going to attract him the most.

    We tell the seminarians, don't worry about the good looking ones, worry about the virtuous ones. The virtuous ones are what the seminarians are vulnerable to, because as he studies he becomes attracted to virtue.

    She can laugh when she gets older, which is a sign she has not succumbed to anger. Many women really succumb to anger.

    Ususually guys are clueless in regards to the interior emotional life, so he'll just say something, you know, that totally crushes her emotionally, and then he'll say, 'So what's for dinner?'

    So if she has virtue she'll be able to keep her emotions from going in that direction. She is not vindictive and does not grow angry at what she may not have gotten out of the marriage. She will temper herself, and look to the good of others.

    "She has opened her mouth to wisdom, and the law of clemency is on her tongue."

    Clemency is the virtue that moderates anger. A virtuous woman won't smack her child out of anger. She'll be able to stand back and say, what's best. Now sometimes you should just smack them.. but it should never be done out of anger. And that applies to men as well.

    "Her children rose up, and called her blessed" A virtuous woman leaves a soft spot in the heart of her children. If she's a good and virtuous woman, there's practically nothing her children won't do for her. They'll look at her after they grow up, and think fondly of her, and say she's blessed by God.

    If she tries to control them, they'll be just like "I want to get away from this person." But if she has virtue they will want to be around her, basically.

    If she is virtuous.. That virtue will be begotten in her children, through implicit learning.. Basically this is learning just by watching.

    As they get older, they're not going to sadden their mother by doing things they shouldn't done (generally)..

    Most men avoid their wives and don't have too much good to say, you ask them what do you think of your wife? "Well.." "She's got great hair." They really avoid their wives, it's sad. Usually it's a little later in the marriage. They're spending more time, out in the barn, than with the wife.
    "Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: the woman that feareth the Lord, she shall be praised."
    Beauty will not sustain a marriage. There is a virtue that St. Thomas calls honestia. It is not honesty. It is sometimes translated as integrity. Basically what honestia is, it's the virtue, the habit by which in each and every set of circumstances, the person tries to do what is virtuous. It's the habit, of always trying to do what is virtuous. This virtue, once a person gets this..
    St. Thomas calls this spiritual beauty, another name for this. This spiritual beauty in virtue.. there's a two-fold thing.. there's the side of the soul, where the habit principally recides..
    You can kindof see it. A certain brilliance in their contenance. You can see this with old, old nuns that have always been faithful to their vows and always tried.

    The contary is kindof the case too, and you can see this, if a person is viscious, the body breaks down.

    Every sin that you commit, actually causes your body to become badly disposed. When you lie.. around your eyes it starts.. There are certain things that just start rewiring the brain.

    Fear of the Lord is the turning away from created things, that is how St. Thomas defines it..

    That's the essential.. Not because they are evil, but because you fear they will offend God in relation to your relationship with created things. In the spiritual tradition it's caused detachment. From your house, from your money, from your appearance, from your created things.. if she has an authentic fear of the Lord, she'll be content with her virtue, basically..

    The mind or the intellect is by which we know.
    The heart can have a variety of different meanings.
    It can mean the will, must principly. The will is the faculty which chooses the will.
    It can actualy include the will, and affections or emotions.
    If he's virtuous, these will all be united in the family with her following him in choosing virtue by knowledge.
    Sincerely,

    Shin

    'Flores apparuerunt in terra nostra. . . Fulcite me floribus.' (The flowers appear on the earth. . . stay me up with flowers. Sg 2:12,5)'-

    Offline shin

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    Men and Women - Conference Notes
    « Reply #3 on: December 09, 2013, 08:20:35 PM »
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  • And that's about it.. A quote to take away, 'honestia':

    Quote
    There is a virtue that St. Thomas calls honestia. It is not honesty. It is sometimes translated as integrity. Basically what honestia is, it's the virtue, the habit by which in each and every set of circumstances, the person tries to do what is virtuous. It's the habit, of always trying to do what is virtuous. This virtue, once a person gets this..

    St. Thomas calls this spiritual beauty, another name for this. This spiritual beauty in virtue.. there's a two-fold thing.. there's the side of the soul, where the habit principally recides..

    You can kindof see it. A certain brilliance in their contenance. You can see this with old, old nuns that have always been faithful to their vows and always tried.

    The contary is kindof the case too, and you can see this, if a person is viscious, the body breaks down.

    Sincerely,

    Shin

    'Flores apparuerunt in terra nostra. . . Fulcite me floribus.' (The flowers appear on the earth. . . stay me up with flowers. Sg 2:12,5)'-

    Offline jake1

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    Men and Women - Conference Notes
    « Reply #4 on: December 10, 2013, 11:56:38 AM »
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  • Thank you Shin for taking these notes!  This was truly a very enlightening and practical talk.


    Offline Sigismund

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    Men and Women - Conference Notes
    « Reply #5 on: December 10, 2013, 07:18:29 PM »
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  • Very interesting.  Thanks for posting this.  
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Men and Women - Conference Notes
    « Reply #6 on: December 11, 2013, 03:33:05 AM »
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  • Fantastic post!  Thank you.

    Offline shin

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    Men and Women - Conference Notes
    « Reply #7 on: December 13, 2013, 11:42:25 PM »
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  • It could use a little editing, but I held it back for awhile and figured I'd never get it out. Well c'est la virtual vie. If only one could go back..

    Some take aways:

    Quote

    this is why you -have- to have a virtuous husband. Because otherwise, you're going to pay. And it isn't going to be pretty.


    Quote
    From the scripture: "A beautiful woman with a rebellious disposition is like a gold ring in the snout of a pig."

    Nothing else matters if she does not have virtue. If she does not have virtue you simply will not have a happy life with her.


    One of the things that strikes me as one grows in virtue one grows in the ability to recognize it. If you don't have it, a spiritual sense of it, you judge more the exterior of it than the spirit of it.. I noticed this in m own life..

    If you're severely lacking in virtue and a true sense of it.. don't think you'll necessarily recognize if your potential spouse has it or not, you may get blindsided by infatuation and fantasy.. you need to make that virtuous progress yourself ahead of time, and not shilly shally or think a marriage solves one's problems. Far from it.. I think then, the problems are exacerbated because as it is..

    Quote
    Now here's something that they do, and this is with the husband, though usually it's the wife that in the marriage is worried about the communication issues. . . Part of his protection comes from the fact, that when the demons get into the marriage -- and they attack every marriage -- and by the time you're married, they know every nook and cranny of your defects. And when you get married, it doesn't get better, it gets worse, because then when you're around the person more frequently, they can drive certain things psychologically, and can say 'well now he's stuck'.


    'Well now he's stuck'. There's another scripture that comes to mind.

    'It is better to sit in a corner of the roof, than with a contentious woman, and in a common house.'

    Proverbs 25:24

    Enthronement of the Sacred Heart and daily prayer in His Heart's honor is a great way to bring peace to a home.

    It's not like in the past or more patriarchal cultures where often enough the protection of the parents and morals kept youths' hearts -fresh-.. or committed after or upon marriage.. people's hearts are constantly 'crushing' 'romancing'.. and spoiling unfaithfully beforehand.. All the 'entertainment' is oriented this way.. vicarious romance.. So marriages need more glue than they used to, because there isn't the support of society..

    Sincerely,

    Shin

    'Flores apparuerunt in terra nostra. . . Fulcite me floribus.' (The flowers appear on the earth. . . stay me up with flowers. Sg 2:12,5)'-


    Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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    Men and Women - Conference Notes
    « Reply #8 on: December 15, 2013, 12:01:35 AM »
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  • Quote from: shin
    I took notes, basically a transcription of some of the conferences on men and women from Sensus Traditionis.

    I know there's an interest in this subject, and there's not enough material out there. So I'm going to post my notes, for those that are interested. Caveat/Disclaimer -- they're notes, mostly transcription, no guarantees of accuracy of content or else, nor personal my own personal 100% agreement with any particular part of the content -- discern for yourself with responsibility.

    That said I think they're overall helpful and food for thought.

    Men

    The two principle duties of men are to:

    1. To Provide
    2. To Protect (not just wife and daughters, but also society)

    In the medieval period a woman had to live with her male relatives when single, unless all of them were dead, or she was at a venerable age. This was to protect her chastity. This is why St. Thomas considered [relations outside of wedlock] a violation even more greatly against the virtue of justice than the virtue of temperance, because when this crime was committed by a man against a daughter, it was a violation of justice against the father whose duty it is to protect the daughter's chastity. Of course it is her duty to do so too, but it is in fact, more primarily the father's.

    The father's headship is passed at the time of marriage, or death.. if the father died, she went and stayed with an uncle, or brother, something like that.. in order to preserve his honor. In fact in the medieval period the -only- women of child bearing years who lived alone were women of ill repute. The only ones. Which is a whole different mindset from where we are at today.

    Today, the percentage of women who are [impurely assaulted] by the time they get into or out of college, the numbers are over fifty percent now. So we're talking about something that is pretty serious, so you can see why the medievals actually saw that.

    Man's bodily make-up, his psychological make up is fundamentally different from women.

    Notably, however, today young boys have much of their masculinity beaten out of them at an early age.

    Modern studies show.. and you know, modern studies, we have to study what everyone knows, that is common sense..

    You will notice when men study something, they tend to tune everything else out. That is because men are designed to do this, and not multi-task.

    In war, that's a necessary thing. He has to be able to do that in war, because in war you have to be able to focus on what you are doing and not be paying attention to the bullets buzzing over your head.

    Well, and that's one of the signs that his principle function is to protect. Whereas women are designed to pay attention to a number of different things, but superficially, not in the same depth. And they can see this actually in brain stems.

    OK, and then of course to provide.

    Remember in the Old Testament the punishment for Adam was, 'now you have to provide for your wife, at the sweat of your brow, and by thorns.' And that's one of the reasons why Christ, the reason the father's say Christ was crowned with thorns, was to reverse the punishment of man's suffering when he works.

    But this providing, it used to be in the past. . . well today things are pretty easy.

    Most things men can do, women can do, but if you go back one hundred years ago that wasn't the case at all.

    Where are you going to find a women behind a plow, trying to guide two horses through a field?

    And when she's in war -- and they discovered this in the first Gulf War, because women who were in the war, simply shut down, they couldn't keep the noises and everything out of their head and focus on what they were doing. So the guys on the front lines have to protect her, because she's shutting down, so that becomes a bit of a problem.

    To provide and protect, there's a material side for this, and there's a spiritual side to this.

    The material side, providing, he has to bring home the bacon. He has to provide, food, etc. put things on the table. Because material providence, is rather a natural providence, and this also pertains to psychology, which we will talk about later.

    There are certain things he has to provide for the family psychologically that the woman is not capable of providing, and this we will talk about later.

    He has to protect on a natural level, and that deals with two different things. One thing, the bodily well being, basically of the family.

    He's stronger physically, generally, every once in awhile you of course wind up with the opposite, but normally.. Well the exception just proves the rule.

    Protected on a physical level from things that are harmful. The providence though is also spiritual, the protection is also spiritual..

    He has to bring home the food, and such, so the wife can take care of the children. If he's not it's extremely difficult for her to do so.

    As for his spiritual authority, it pertains to the father to determine the cult of the family.

    This authority is rooted in an office. An actual thing that is in him, that gives him a certain authority in relation to certain things. The office of father gives him a certain authority in relation to his children, and in relation to his wife, and certain duties.

    The office and authorities are always oriented towards the performance of some sort of obligation of duty.

    And that's very important for people to understand. The authority of a husband is -not- there for its own sake. It is not there for him.

    You will see this sometimes in families. The guy comes home from work, he sits on the couch, and meanwhile the wife is running around. She's been running around for fourteen hours already, and the guy is, 'bring me this, bring me that.' Well, excuse me, but this is inverted. Because as I mentioned in the last class, as St. Thomas says, everything in the home is entirely the responsibility of the husband. All of it. It's his job, it's his job.

    The reason God gave him a helper, not a slave, was to fulfill his job. It's his job to change the diapers, it's his job to make sure the children are fed, it's his job to make certain the children get to school on time. But God gave him a helper, and delegated to her certain things, based on the constitution and structure of her nature as a woman. So if she can't do it, he -has- to do it. He can't just sit there and get on her case.

    Doing the dishes, changing the diapers, etc. is the man's job. The wife is there to help the man.

    The office and authority is ultimately there to provide and protect for his wife and his children.

    So that means on the spiritual he has a certain authority and power, and that power --  that does not mean it's there just to tell his wife what to do, that's not what we're talking about. Although that is a certain element in it, because she has to be submissive to her husband. But again, she's not submissive for his sake, but she's submissive for the sake of the children, and for the sake of her obligations before God, to submit to the authority He has invested in the office of fatherhood and husband.

    It is for this reason that prayer, sufferings, and good works, offered God for the spiritual protection and providence of the family are of key importance, and pertains to the father, first and foremost to protect the children spiritually.

    That's his first job. His first job is not to go to work and make money. That is not his first obligation.

    His first obligation is to provide grace for his children and for his wife. That's his first obligation.

    Since he has the authority, the father more than the wife has the capacity to merit the grace for his wife to lead a wife of virtue. So, if you don't think the wife is virtuous -- well look in the mirror for awhile, if you're looking for the cause.

    Whenever a husband fails to pray, suffer, and do good works to merit graces for his family he fails in the most important task as a husband and father. In fact, he fails in the most essential aspect of masculinity.

    The true masculinity is ultimately there to provide and protect on a spiritual level for his family. That's what it's there for. And that's real important, because sometimes you will find guys who abdicate the responsibility of correcting their children for example.

    They'll be negligent in protecting them. When the father sees a moral or spiritual fault in his wife or children, he fails to provide for them if he merely temporally admonishes them. In other words, if he tells her, 'Look you should not be doing that.' or he tells the children, 'Look I do not want you doing this.' If he only does that, there's negligence there. Now he does have an obligation to do that, but there's negligence. Once he sees the defects he must spiritually do what he can to merit the grace as well as to direct and govern his wife and children through his legitimate commands to lead them to virtue.

    He must lead them spiritually not only by not allowing things like impure media and false religions media to enter into the minds and senses of his minds and children, but by praying and suffering and offering good works to keep the demonic away from his family.

    So this spiritual protection is moral, and then also supernatural. By providing grace.

    So he has an obligation to provide for them morally by giving them knowledge, and an atmosphere by which they are able to lead a good and moral life. He has to provide for them supernaturally by giving them grace.

    Which is why when you see a guy who does not have the virtue of mortification, he is just effeminiate. Because he doesn't have the self-denial that is required to provide and protect. Because remember these are difficult things, part of the punishment, he is going to have to suffer if he is actually going to provide for his wife and his family. If he doesn't have the mortification, if he is attached to pleasure -- he is stuck in the age of fifteen or sixteen, why? Because as he goes through puberty.. it takes a couple years to achieve maturation.. pursuit of pleasure arrests the maturation process.

    There are two ways to mature: pain and responsibility. The guy is attached to his pleasure -- that's neither. He doesn't pursue things that are arduous and difficult, so he doesn't grow older, because he can't deny himself. Because basically what growing up means is attainment of virtue. He hasn't attained mortification through the process of attaining to work.

    He hasn't taken responsibility, because a guy who's stuck in pleasure isn't interested in responsibility.

    He has to suffer and deny himself. So not only he has to provide grace, he has to provide knowledge of what is right and wrong.

    And part of this pertains to the cult. It's his obligation to see that before God, people are going to Mass. It's his responsibility to make sure the children are learning how to pray, and that his wife is praying. It's his responsibility.

    The wife has a responsibility as well, but it's subordinated to his.

    Then there's spiritual protection, and this has to do on moral level, by basically keeping things that are occasions of sin out of the family.

    He has to make sure those are -not- there.

    Usually that means a lot of different things on lot of different levels, that means he has to be a man of virtue.

    I tell these men [who are looking at good looking women], 'Look, she might be good looking, but if she's lacking in virtue, you are going to pay for it, for the rest of your life.'

    But even if she's not good looking. . . If she has virtue, it does not matter, you will be happy the rest of your life.

    And that ability to see the virtue and the value of virtue, like begets like. If a man is virtuous, the physiological appearance of the woman is truly secondary. He is truly only interested in -- is this woman virtuous enough to be my wife, and make a good mother to my children.

    But if he is not, if he is arrested in this immaturity state of 15, even if he's 35, he is only going to pursue pleasure, and beauty enhances the pleasure, so that is what he is going to be interested in and not the virtue.

    Because virtue tends to put the kibosh on a lot of the pleasure he's going to be looking for.

    But he's got to make sure that the occasions of sin are out of the family, and he's going not going to do that unless he's a man of virtue.

    But he also has to protect them spiritually from the demonic. And this is what most guys. . . do not do. In fact, my experience is that maybe one in fifty, does anything really, (and here I am talking about traditional Catholics) to make certain the demons are not affecting the wife, the children, and that type of thing by saying regular prayers, and they just simply deny that they are seeing patterns of behavior, see things in their experience..

    Usually the pattern is, if the guy is still arrested, in this case -- say at the age of 15 instead of 35.. what happens is he usually contracts certain kinds of habits of sin, which means if he comes to the marriage, he's bringing baggage.

    We're not just talking vice, we're talking demonic baggage. What happens is, that he, because of his sin, when he's at home, usually the sin won't stop. They won't stop, even if they are man and wife, and so what happens is they introduce these sinful behaviors into the family.

    The husband, because of his authority, more than anything else, because of this, opens the doors for the demons to be inserted into the family.. and it passes from generation to generation. Now the wife can do this too, but it is moreso the husband.

    Most guys actually pass the demonic baggage on to their children, rather than actually blocking them, and making certain it's not harming them.

    Again, this is why you -have- to have a virtuous husband. Because otherwise, you're going to pay. And it isn't going to be pretty.


    I agree with most of this but must object to the following

    "Doing the dishes, changing the diapers, etc. is the man's job "

    really?? since when?  doing the dishes is the woman's job, doesn't mean the husband can't help out but the woman should take care of the kitchen, especially if she's at home like she should be while the man is at work

    Offline shin

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    Men and Women - Conference Notes
    « Reply #9 on: December 15, 2013, 03:28:42 AM »
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    doing the dishes is the woman's job, doesn't mean the husband can't help out but the woman should take care of the kitchen, especially if she's at home like she should be while the man is at work


    I think you are misunderstanding the statement. Please reread the surrounding context carefully.

    He is talking about ultimate responsibility, which is all the man's, while the woman is indeed more suitable and normally meant for these home tasks, he is saying it seems to me, if she can't do them or do them all for various reasons, the husband can't say, well I should not do them, it is not my responsibility.


    Sincerely,

    Shin

    'Flores apparuerunt in terra nostra. . . Fulcite me floribus.' (The flowers appear on the earth. . . stay me up with flowers. Sg 2:12,5)'-


     

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