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Author Topic: Question about traditional third orders  (Read 2767 times)

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Offline poenitens

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Question about traditional third orders
« on: January 20, 2024, 05:31:17 AM »
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  • Ave María:

    First of all, I deeply respect traditional religious orders like the Dominicans of Avrille and the Capuchins of Morgon. This post is not meant to denigrate them. It is just that I am thinking of joining a third order but there is a question that is bothering me.

    How can priests of traditional religious orders (ex.: the Dominicans of Avrille) constitute third orders and admit other people into its membership, since they (the first order) are not canonically constituted? In normal times, wouldn't it be necessary that they receive this authority from a superior (the master of the Dominican Order? The Pope?) so that the person that they are making a tertiary might enjoy the associated privileges, such as indulgences and promises of salvation if he follows the rule (see time mark 7:03 of this video)?

    If they are indeed in possession of such authority, could it be passed down to secular priests as they do to SSPX priests?

    I’ll appreciate any help!


    ¡Viva Jesús!

    Please, disregard any opinions and references that I have posted that may seem favorable to any traditionalist group, especially those that pertinaciously deny EENS (CMRI, Sanborn, Dolan and associates, for example).

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    • γνῶθι σεαυτόν - temet nosce
    Re: Question about traditional third orders
    « Reply #1 on: January 20, 2024, 06:23:40 AM »
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  • These communities have no canonical authority to institute third orders since the communities themselves, with some exceptions, are not canonical members of the religious orders that they represent. Here is a case where epikiea has no applicability. These "third orders" are realistically just groupings of lay persons who privately practice a rule modeled on that of the canonical third orders (re-named secular orders in the 1983 Code) and affiliated with groups of priests and laypersons in private vows who likewise live in community modeled on the rules of the first and second orders of religious orders. In short, everything is a matter of private commitments to communities with private vows.

    Now, here is the funny thing. I am a professed brother of the Third Order of the Society of St. Pius X. Canonically, however, the SSPX cannot have a third order since there is no first or second orders. The SSPX are not canonically a religious order, i.e., it is not a community of vowed, regular clergy. Neither are the brothers and sisters of the SSPX monks (or friars) and nuns, rather they are active congregations. The SSPX argues that it is a congregation of common life without vows, a kind of secular clerical institute. Ipso facto, such an institution cannot have a third order since third orders pertain to regular clergy, i.e., proper religious orders. The Third Order of the SSPX, were it ever canonically erected, would be in fact a confraternity, not a third order. This canonical reality is reflected in the statuses of the lay associations affiliated with the Fraternity of St. Peter and the Institute of Christ the King.

    Sometimes we nomads of Tradistan engage in some serious LARPing.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila


    Offline poenitens

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    Re: Question about traditional third orders
    « Reply #2 on: January 20, 2024, 06:58:16 AM »
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  • These "third orders" are realistically just groupings of lay persons who privately practice a rule modeled on that of the canonical third orders
    This was my suspicion. Thanks.

    By the way...
    Quote
    Sometimes we nomads of Tradistan engage in some serious LARPing.
    This is true, we ought not to be "nostalgic dreamers of a canceled past, but rather hunters of sacred shades upon the eternal hills." ;)
    ¡Viva Jesús!

    Please, disregard any opinions and references that I have posted that may seem favorable to any traditionalist group, especially those that pertinaciously deny EENS (CMRI, Sanborn, Dolan and associates, for example).

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Question about traditional third orders
    « Reply #3 on: January 20, 2024, 09:54:12 AM »
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  • So, are we to conclude that the indulgences and privileges are nonexistent in this case?

    I would think so.

    One can hope that the good God will grant the same privileges to those who try to live in the same "spirit" as the original third orders, but there is no certainty.

    Offline Soubirous

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    Re: Question about traditional third orders
    « Reply #4 on: January 20, 2024, 12:32:33 PM »
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  • So, are we to conclude that the indulgences and privileges are nonexistent in this case?

    I would think so.

    One can hope that the good God will grant the same privileges to those who try to live in the same "spirit" as the original third orders, but there is no certainty.

    It's not the affiliation that obtains the indulgences, it's the daily observance of the requirements. 
    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus


    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: Question about traditional third orders
    « Reply #5 on: January 20, 2024, 12:42:47 PM »
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  • Sometimes we nomads of Tradistan engage in some serious LARPing.
    Guilty on that charge. :smirk: (I have the complete ensemble as pictured below Puls sword, dagger, helmut and gloves. If the neoSSPX can have their Third Order, I can don my crusading garments for the Holy Triduum!)


    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Question about traditional third orders
    « Reply #6 on: January 20, 2024, 12:49:04 PM »
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  • If the neoSSPX can have their Third Order, I can don my crusading garments for the Holy Triduum!)

    Hey, more power to you.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Question about traditional third orders
    « Reply #7 on: January 20, 2024, 12:51:54 PM »
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  • These communities have no canonical authority to institute third orders since the communities themselves, with some exceptions, are not canonical members of the religious orders that they represent. Here is a case where epikiea has no applicability. These "third orders" are realistically just groupings of lay persons who privately practice a rule modeled on that of the canonical third orders (re-named secular orders in the 1983 Code) and affiliated with groups of priests and laypersons in private vows who likewise live in community modeled on the rules of the first and second orders of religious orders. In short, everything is a matter of private commitments to communities with private vows.

    Now, here is the funny thing. I am a professed brother of the Third Order of the Society of St. Pius X. Canonically, however, the SSPX cannot have a third order since there is no first or second orders. The SSPX are not canonically a religious order, i.e., it is not a community of vowed, regular clergy. Neither are the brothers and sisters of the SSPX monks (or friars) and nuns, rather they are active congregations. The SSPX argues that it is a congregation of common life without vows, a kind of secular clerical institute. Ipso facto, such an institution cannot have a third order since third orders pertain to regular clergy, i.e., proper religious orders. The Third Order of the SSPX, were it ever canonically erected, would be in fact a confraternity, not a third order. This canonical reality is reflected in the statuses of the lay associations affiliated with the Fraternity of St. Peter and the Institute of Christ the King.

    Sometimes we nomads of Tradistan engage in some serious LARPing.

    I could in theory become a Benedictine just by adopting the Benedictine rule (although I believe they may have to be celibate).  What would you say regarding the status of Benedictines (which have never operated like most Orders) ... since you're much more versed in Church law in this regard?


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Question about traditional third orders
    « Reply #8 on: January 20, 2024, 01:39:41 PM »
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  • How can priests of traditional religious orders (ex.: the Dominicans of Avrille) constitute third orders and admit other people into its membership, since they (the first order) are not canonically constituted?
    .

    I dunno. I guess the same way you can attend a chapel that is not canonically constituted either, and receive the sacraments from a priest without faculties, and so on.

    Quote
    In normal times, wouldn't it be necessary that they receive this authority from a superior


    These are not normal times, so what is the relevance of this?

    I think people get a bit too focused on rules that would prevent us from observing the Catholic religion if we followed them. That's exactly why we don't follow them now. People are supposed to join pious confraternities to worship God together and strengthen each other. Do we stop doing that now, since the people who normally establish these confraternities aren't available?

    As far as whether you would get the same indulgences as you would have before Vatican 2, well, only God can answer that. We are just supposed to do everything within our power to serve Him, and then trust Him for the results of that.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Question about traditional third orders
    « Reply #9 on: January 20, 2024, 02:16:47 PM »
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  • I don't think anyone's saying to stop, just pondering the question of its status before God.  Elwin above there stated that he joined the SSPX Third Order, despite spending most of his post stating that the Order don't have any real canonical status.

    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: Question about traditional third orders
    « Reply #10 on: January 20, 2024, 02:25:57 PM »
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  • The neoSSPX is finally offering the option for our chapel members to join the Third Order, as with four priests serving in our province -with one senior priest who has been in charge of the Third Order in his other placements- makes this possible.

    From a strictly "what does the TOrd demand", it has nothing to offer me spiritually, apart from the grievous fact that this IS the neosspx, and I attend simply because they still have for now valid sacraments. 

    I do know that the requirements for the TOrd have been made lax, or at least seriously loosened since 2012. 

    In Canada, the Society uses the book - Divine Warfare - originally published in Winnipeg MB (where I was a lay apostle in 2007).
    The admonition against attending the Nefarious Odour was subsequently removed from later editions. As they say, that is a big deal.

    Our chapel still has members attending the FSSP either for Sunday Masses or weekday Masses. Not a peep from the pulpit about Indultery, and nothing from equally anemic catechism classes. Some are Third Order members.

    Which begs the question....why even bother joining when there is all this liturgical/doctrinal error?
    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster


    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: Question about traditional third orders
    « Reply #11 on: January 20, 2024, 02:27:40 PM »
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  • Hey, more power to you.
    Thank you Lad :pray: 

    I will certainly let CathInfo know how it went over! :cowboy:
    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Question about traditional third orders
    « Reply #12 on: January 20, 2024, 03:00:14 PM »
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  •  Indultery
    If this is a play on "adultery" it is quite fitting 
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline poenitens

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    Re: Question about traditional third orders
    « Reply #13 on: January 20, 2024, 04:44:53 PM »
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  • I don't think anyone's saying to stop, just pondering the question of its status before God.  Elwin above there stated that he joined the SSPX Third Order, despite spending most of his post stating that the Order don't have any real canonical status.
    Agreed. Even if it's not the real thing, I plan to join one of those "third orders".  I just don't want to be fooled by it.
    ¡Viva Jesús!

    Please, disregard any opinions and references that I have posted that may seem favorable to any traditionalist group, especially those that pertinaciously deny EENS (CMRI, Sanborn, Dolan and associates, for example).

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Question about traditional third orders
    « Reply #14 on: January 20, 2024, 05:51:02 PM »
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  • It's not the affiliation that obtains the indulgences, it's the daily observance of the requirements.

    What if I observe the requirements and have no affiliation? That wouldn't suffice, I imagine.