Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Cantarella on December 06, 2013, 11:53:15 PM
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Is it possible to baptize an unconscious and dying non-Catholic without any previous show of willingness?
What is the Catholic teaching on that?
I know that Catholics in frequent contact with the dying such as nurses, were encouraged to baptize the Non-Catholic dying person even if they were unconscious (think, for example the dead wounded in battle). So regardless of the willingness of the person, it seems possible to baptize a Non Catholic adult right before dying?
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From the Code of Canon Law;
864 §2. An adult in danger of death can be baptized if, having some knowledge of the principal truths of the faith, the person has manifested in any way at all the intention to receive baptism and promises to observe the commandments of the Christian religion.
868 §2. An infant of Catholic parents or even of non-Catholic parents is baptized licitly in danger of death even against the will of the parents.
Can. 869 §1. If there is a doubt whether a person has been baptized or whether baptism was conferred validly and the doubt remains after a serious investigation, baptism is to be conferred conditionally.
§2. Those baptized in a non-Catholic ecclesial community must not be baptized conditionally unless, after an examination of the matter and the form of the words used in the conferral of baptism and a consideration of the intention of the baptized adult and the minister of the baptism, a serious reason exists to doubt the validity of the baptism.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2X.HTM
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Is it possible to baptize an unconscious and dying non-Catholic without any previous show of willingness?
With respect to an adult that would not be correct. Canon Law requires that teh person have some knowledge of the principal truths of the faith, and that the person has manifested in any way at all the intention to receive baptism and promises to observe the commandments of the Christian religion.
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If the case is known, and the dying adult manifestly did not want any baptism, then when he is comatose or unconscious, it would not be advisable. HOWEVER, if there is any chance that he might have changed his mind, or, if a family member deeply desires to give the dying person every chance possible, or, if the dying person's disposition toward being baptized is not clearly known, or any other such circuŠ¼stance, there should not be any reason to forbid a CONDITIONAL Baptism.
The conditional baptism could be given with the intention that in the off chance that this dying person for whatever reason, at this time, wishes to be baptized, then, let this baptism be for that purpose, but if he does NOT want to be baptized, even given that we do not know this to be the case, then let this baptism be not effective.
And put the whole case into the hands of God, Who knows all things.
The form could be, "I conditionally baptize thee (insert name), in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost," making sure water is moving over the skin during mention of each of the three persons.
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The cement dried, as usual.
The same person must speak the words and at the same time, pour the water.
There could be exceptions, such as the water is being poured on the dying person already, but the person speaking the words cannot reach the dying person to pour water, in which case the person speaking the words should desire to do what the Church does even though he can't pour the water. It's a long shot, but it's better than giving up. Or, what if there is no water? Then pour some sand or something, and say a prayer -- maybe it will turn into water as you pour it!!
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There was a quote from the Catechism of Trent on the other thread here that says no.
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Everything is pointing out that there must be an express will for the Baptism to be valid.
Pope Innocent III in Ex Parte Tua, 1206 writes:
The sleeping and the weak-minded, if before they incurred weakmindedness or before they went to sleep persisted in contradiction.......They do not receive the sign of the Sacrament.
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma:
In the case of adults, an habitual desire at least to receive Baptism is requisite for the valid reception of Baptism. The worthy reception of the Sacrament demands an inner disposition, which must comprehend at least faith and sorrow for sins committed.
It makes sense that God will not save one who has spent their lives rejecting Him simply because you "baptize" them while they are in a state where they cannot make that decision. However, I think you can at least try. You don't lose anything by trying to baptize an unconscious dying Non- Catholic person. What would be the worst that can happen? At worst they get wet and at best they are baptized and therefore can enter Heaven.
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Everything is pointing out that there must be an express will for the Baptism to be valid.
Pope Innocent III in Ex Parte Tua, 1206 writes:
The sleeping and the weak-minded, if before they incurred weakmindedness or before they went to sleep persisted in contradiction.......They do not receive the sign of the Sacrament.
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma:
6. The Recipient of Baptism
1. Adults:
In the case of adults, an habitual desire at least to receive Baptism is requisite for the valid reception of Baptism. The worthy reception of the Sacrament demands an inner disposition, which must comprehend at least faith and sorrow for sins committed.
It makes sense that God will not save one who has spent their lives rejecting Him simply because you "baptize" them while they are in a state where they cannot make that decision. However, I think you can at least try. You don't lose anything by trying to baptize an unconscious dying Non- Catholic person. What would be the worst that can happen? At worst they get wet and at best they are baptized.
I guess my personal concern would be would we be making a mockery of the sacrament?
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Everything is pointing out that there must be an express will for the Baptism to be valid.
Pope Innocent III in Ex Parte Tua, 1206 writes:
The sleeping and the weak-minded, if before they incurred weakmindedness or before they went to sleep persisted in contradiction.......They do not receive the sign of the Sacrament.
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma:
6. The Recipient of Baptism
1. Adults:
In the case of adults, an habitual desire at least to receive Baptism is requisite for the valid reception of Baptism. The worthy reception of the Sacrament demands an inner disposition, which must comprehend at least faith and sorrow for sins committed.
It makes sense that God will not save one who has spent their lives rejecting Him simply because you "baptize" them while they are in a state where they cannot make that decision. However, I think you can at least try. You don't lose anything by trying to baptize an unconscious dying Non- Catholic person. What would be the worst that can happen? At worst they get wet and at best they are baptized.
I guess my personal concern would be would we be making a mockery of the sacrament?
I don't know but I feel that if it is my mother who is dying right before my eyes and I know that she must die a Catholic to get into Heaven, that is precisely what I would do.
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Everything is pointing out that there must be an express will for the Baptism to be valid.
Pope Innocent III in Ex Parte Tua, 1206 writes:
The sleeping and the weak-minded, if before they incurred weakmindedness or before they went to sleep persisted in contradiction.......They do not receive the sign of the Sacrament.
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma:
6. The Recipient of Baptism
1. Adults:
In the case of adults, an habitual desire at least to receive Baptism is requisite for the valid reception of Baptism. The worthy reception of the Sacrament demands an inner disposition, which must comprehend at least faith and sorrow for sins committed.
It makes sense that God will not save one who has spent their lives rejecting Him simply because you "baptize" them while they are in a state where they cannot make that decision. However, I think you can at least try. You don't lose anything by trying to baptize an unconscious dying Non- Catholic person. What would be the worst that can happen? At worst they get wet and at best they are baptized.
I guess my personal concern would be would we be making a mockery of the sacrament?
I don't know but I feel that if it is my mother who is dying right before my eyes and I know that she must die a Catholic to get into Heaven, that is precisely what I would do.
Yes, but if making a mockery of the sacrament actually invalidates it, then it's as if we didn't do it.
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Ask your priest and let me know what his reply is.
This of course, would be the last resource. Please do not cease praying for her soul. God may give you and her the grace of a previous consent to convert her to the True Faith. She could then possibly be saved after Baptism and Perfect Act of Contrition.
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I don't know but I feel that if it is my mother who is dying right before my eyes and I know that she must die a Catholic to get into Heaven, that is precisely what I would do.
I realize I may be speaking out of sentimentalism. :sad: It is just hard to accept the reality that people that are dear to us are undoubtedly damned.
I will ask the question to a priest myself.
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I don't know but I feel that if it is my mother who is dying right before my eyes and I know that she must die a Catholic to get into Heaven, that is precisely what I would do.
I realize I may be speaking out of sentimentalism. :sad: It is just hard to accept the reality that people that are dear to us are undoubtedly damned.
I will ask the question to a priest myself.
Cantarella I COMPLETELY understand. I hope I didn't come off uncharitable.
AS for my priest, I won't see him again until January. Please let us know what yours says.
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Cantarella, have you checked in with your priest about this yet? If so, what did he say?
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Is it possible to baptize an unconscious and dying non-Catholic without any previous show of willingness?
What is the Catholic teaching on that?
I know that Catholics in frequent contact with the dying such as nurses, were encouraged to baptize the Non-Catholic dying person even if they were unconscious (think, for example the dead wounded in battle). So regardless of the willingness of the person, it seems possible to baptize a Non Catholic adult right before dying?
This question is answered by Canon 752 found HERE (https://archive.org/stream/1917CodeOfCanonLawCommentary#page/n1375/mode/2up)
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We never know if God is speaking to the dying person in His way, we do not know the disposition of the dying persons soul, and we should baptise the dying unconscious person, if the person is conscious and refuses then we should not baptize them but continue to pray and encourage them on the right path to salvation.
This is only my common sense speaking.
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Myrna, please leave this to a priest who has training in Pastoral theology. Everything that's been posted suggests that Baptism cannot be conferred unless there's some prior indication of the willingness to receive it. Everyone should consult a well educated priest on this matter and not rely upon "common sense".
As an aside, this prerequisite of the "willingness to receive" the Sacrament, for which the linked Canon cites the Council of Trent, is what Trent was teaching in the famous "without [the Sacrament] or the desire thereof" passage that's wrongly construed to be teaching Baptism of Desire.
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Ladis... with all due respect, my post was exactly why I added it was my own common sense talking, did not want anyone to think I was quoting a priest.
Merry Christmas to all.
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The answer is no. Someone who is at the point of death, must explicitly profess the Faith in order to receive Baptism and gain graces. And implicit faith / desire is not sufficient.
Pope Eugene IV:
Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all else to hold the Catholic Faith; unless each one preserve this whole and entire, he will without a doubt perish in eternity (After defining the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation and the necessity to believe in these truthts) ...This is the Catholic Faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and frimly, he cannot be saved.
Pope St Pius X:
"We declare that a great number of those who are condemned to eternal punishment suffer everlasting calamity because of ignorance of those mysteries of faith which must be known and believed in order to be numbered among the Elect"
Pope Clement XI:
A missionary should not baptize one who does not believe explicitly in the Lord Jesus Christ, but it is bound to instruct him about al those matters which are necessary, by a necessity of means, in accordance with the capacity of the one baptized.
Baptism can never be impossible to receive for anyone, since God has revealed and commanded Baptism for the attainment of eternal salvation and God does not command impossibilities. This is a promise of God Himself. Our Lord says " Ask and it shall be given to you, seek and you SHALL find for everyone who asks receive and who seeks finds...
So Vermont and all those who have non Catholic family or friends, we shall grieve upon those loved ones who irreparably will be damned forever at the moment of death. Let us pray for these souls so they can be converted to the True Faith before they die. Let us do as much as we possibly can during this earthly exile to convert them and take their veils off their eyes!