Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Question about Baptism  (Read 2112 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Cantarella

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7782
  • Reputation: +4577/-579
  • Gender: Female
Question about Baptism
« on: December 06, 2013, 11:53:15 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Is it possible to baptize an unconscious and dying non-Catholic without any previous show of willingness?

    What is the Catholic teaching on that?

    I know that  Catholics in frequent contact with the dying such as nurses, were encouraged to baptize the Non-Catholic dying person even if they were unconscious (think, for example the dead wounded in battle). So regardless of the willingness of the person, it seems possible to baptize a Non Catholic adult right before dying?  
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline poche

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 16730
    • Reputation: +1218/-4688
    • Gender: Male
    Question about Baptism
    « Reply #1 on: December 07, 2013, 12:01:27 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • From the Code of Canon Law;  
    864 §2. An adult in danger of death can be baptized if, having some knowledge of the principal truths of the faith, the person has manifested in any way at all the intention to receive baptism and promises to observe the commandments of the Christian religion.

    868 §2. An infant of Catholic parents or even of non-Catholic parents is baptized licitly in danger of death even against the will of the parents.

    Can.  869 §1. If there is a doubt whether a person has been baptized or whether baptism was conferred validly and the doubt remains after a serious investigation, baptism is to be conferred conditionally.

    §2. Those baptized in a non-Catholic ecclesial community must not be baptized conditionally unless, after an examination of the matter and the form of the words used in the conferral of baptism and a consideration of the intention of the baptized adult and the minister of the baptism, a serious reason exists to doubt the validity of the baptism.

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2X.HTM


    Offline poche

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 16730
    • Reputation: +1218/-4688
    • Gender: Male
    Question about Baptism
    « Reply #2 on: December 07, 2013, 12:09:32 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Is it possible to baptize an unconscious and dying non-Catholic without any previous show of willingness?

    With respect to an adult that would not be correct. Canon Law requires that teh person have some knowledge of the principal truths of the faith, and that the person has manifested in any way at all the intention to receive baptism and promises to observe the commandments of the Christian religion.
     

    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8276/-692
    • Gender: Male
    Question about Baptism
    « Reply #3 on: December 07, 2013, 01:01:17 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • .

    If the case is known, and the dying adult manifestly did not want any baptism, then when he is comatose or unconscious, it would not be advisable.  HOWEVER, if there is any chance that he might have changed his mind, or, if a family member deeply desires to give the dying person every chance possible, or, if the dying person's disposition toward being baptized is not clearly known, or any other such circuмstance, there should not be any reason to forbid a CONDITIONAL Baptism.  

    The conditional baptism could be given with the intention that in the off chance that this dying person for whatever reason, at this time, wishes to be baptized, then, let this baptism be for that purpose, but if he does NOT want to be baptized, even given that we do not know this to be the case, then let this baptism be not effective.  

    And put the whole case into the hands of God, Who knows all things.

    The form could be,  "I conditionally baptize thee (insert name), in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,"  making sure water is moving over the skin during mention of each of the three persons.

    ,
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8276/-692
    • Gender: Male
    Question about Baptism
    « Reply #4 on: December 07, 2013, 01:20:49 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The cement dried, as usual.

    The same person must speak the words and at the same time, pour the water.  

    There could be exceptions, such as the water is being poured on the dying person already, but the person speaking the words cannot reach the dying person to pour water, in which case the person speaking the words should desire to do what the Church does even though he can't pour the water.  It's a long shot, but it's better than giving up.  Or, what if there is no water?  Then pour some sand or something, and say a prayer -- maybe it will turn into water as you pour it!!  


    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41859
    • Reputation: +23917/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Question about Baptism
    « Reply #5 on: December 07, 2013, 12:52:39 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • There was a quote from the Catechism of Trent on the other thread here that says no.

    Offline Cantarella

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7782
    • Reputation: +4577/-579
    • Gender: Female
    Question about Baptism
    « Reply #6 on: December 07, 2013, 01:32:31 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Everything is pointing out that there must be an express will for the Baptism to be valid.

    Pope Innocent III in Ex Parte Tua, 1206 writes:

    The sleeping and the weak-minded, if before they incurred weakmindedness or before they went to sleep persisted in contradiction.......They do not receive the sign of the Sacrament.

    Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma:

    In the case of adults, an habitual desire at least to receive Baptism is requisite for the valid reception of Baptism. The worthy reception of the Sacrament demands an inner disposition, which must comprehend at least faith and sorrow for sins committed.

    It makes sense that God will not save one who has spent their lives rejecting Him simply because you "baptize" them while they are in a state where they cannot make that decision. However, I think you can at least try. You don't lose anything by trying to baptize an unconscious dying Non- Catholic person. What would be the worst that can happen? At worst they get wet and at best they are baptized and therefore can enter Heaven.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 10054
    • Reputation: +5252/-916
    • Gender: Female
    Question about Baptism
    « Reply #7 on: December 07, 2013, 01:34:17 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Everything is pointing out that there must be an express will for the Baptism to be valid.

    Pope Innocent III in Ex Parte Tua, 1206 writes:

    The sleeping and the weak-minded, if before they incurred weakmindedness or before they went to sleep persisted in contradiction.......They do not receive the sign of the Sacrament.

    Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma:

    6. The Recipient of Baptism

    1. Adults:

    In the case of adults, an habitual desire at least to receive Baptism is requisite for the valid reception of Baptism. The worthy reception of the Sacrament demands an inner disposition, which must comprehend at least faith and sorrow for sins committed.

    It makes sense that God will not save one who has spent their lives rejecting Him simply because you "baptize" them while they are in a state where they cannot make that decision. However, I think you can at least try. You don't lose anything by trying to baptize an unconscious dying Non- Catholic person. What would be the worst that can happen? At worst they get wet and at best they are baptized.


    I guess my personal concern would be would we be making a mockery of the sacrament?
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline Cantarella

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7782
    • Reputation: +4577/-579
    • Gender: Female
    Question about Baptism
    « Reply #8 on: December 07, 2013, 01:37:19 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: 2Vermont
    Quote from: Cantarella
    Everything is pointing out that there must be an express will for the Baptism to be valid.

    Pope Innocent III in Ex Parte Tua, 1206 writes:

    The sleeping and the weak-minded, if before they incurred weakmindedness or before they went to sleep persisted in contradiction.......They do not receive the sign of the Sacrament.

    Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma:

    6. The Recipient of Baptism

    1. Adults:

    In the case of adults, an habitual desire at least to receive Baptism is requisite for the valid reception of Baptism. The worthy reception of the Sacrament demands an inner disposition, which must comprehend at least faith and sorrow for sins committed.

    It makes sense that God will not save one who has spent their lives rejecting Him simply because you "baptize" them while they are in a state where they cannot make that decision. However, I think you can at least try. You don't lose anything by trying to baptize an unconscious dying Non- Catholic person. What would be the worst that can happen? At worst they get wet and at best they are baptized.


    I guess my personal concern would be would we be making a mockery of the sacrament?


    I don't know but I feel that if it is my mother who is dying right before my eyes and I know that she must die a Catholic to get into Heaven, that is precisely what I would do.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 10054
    • Reputation: +5252/-916
    • Gender: Female
    Question about Baptism
    « Reply #9 on: December 07, 2013, 01:39:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote from: 2Vermont
    Quote from: Cantarella
    Everything is pointing out that there must be an express will for the Baptism to be valid.

    Pope Innocent III in Ex Parte Tua, 1206 writes:

    The sleeping and the weak-minded, if before they incurred weakmindedness or before they went to sleep persisted in contradiction.......They do not receive the sign of the Sacrament.

    Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma:

    6. The Recipient of Baptism

    1. Adults:

    In the case of adults, an habitual desire at least to receive Baptism is requisite for the valid reception of Baptism. The worthy reception of the Sacrament demands an inner disposition, which must comprehend at least faith and sorrow for sins committed.

    It makes sense that God will not save one who has spent their lives rejecting Him simply because you "baptize" them while they are in a state where they cannot make that decision. However, I think you can at least try. You don't lose anything by trying to baptize an unconscious dying Non- Catholic person. What would be the worst that can happen? At worst they get wet and at best they are baptized.


    I guess my personal concern would be would we be making a mockery of the sacrament?


    I don't know but I feel that if it is my mother who is dying right before my eyes and I know that she must die a Catholic to get into Heaven, that is precisely what I would do.


    Yes, but if making  a mockery of the sacrament actually invalidates it, then it's as if we didn't do it.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Cantarella

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7782
    • Reputation: +4577/-579
    • Gender: Female
    Question about Baptism
    « Reply #10 on: December 07, 2013, 01:42:49 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Ask your priest and let me know what his reply is.

    This of course, would be the last resource.  Please do not cease praying for her soul. God may give you and her the grace of a previous consent to convert her to the True Faith.  She could then possibly be saved after Baptism and Perfect Act of Contrition.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Cantarella

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7782
    • Reputation: +4577/-579
    • Gender: Female
    Question about Baptism
    « Reply #11 on: December 07, 2013, 02:20:37 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Cantarella


    I don't know but I feel that if it is my mother who is dying right before my eyes and I know that she must die a Catholic to get into Heaven, that is precisely what I would do.


    I realize I may be speaking out of sentimentalism.  :sad: It is just hard to accept the reality that people that are dear to us are undoubtedly damned.

    I will ask the question to a priest myself.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 10054
    • Reputation: +5252/-916
    • Gender: Female
    Question about Baptism
    « Reply #12 on: December 07, 2013, 03:44:10 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote from: Cantarella


    I don't know but I feel that if it is my mother who is dying right before my eyes and I know that she must die a Catholic to get into Heaven, that is precisely what I would do.


    I realize I may be speaking out of sentimentalism.  :sad: It is just hard to accept the reality that people that are dear to us are undoubtedly damned.

    I will ask the question to a priest myself.


    Cantarella I COMPLETELY understand.  I hope I didn't come off uncharitable.

    AS for my priest, I won't see him again until January.  Please let us know what yours says.  
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 10054
    • Reputation: +5252/-916
    • Gender: Female
    Question about Baptism
    « Reply #13 on: December 14, 2013, 11:31:26 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Cantarella, have you checked in with your priest about this yet?  If so, what did he say?
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Ambrose

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3447
    • Reputation: +2429/-13
    • Gender: Male
    Question about Baptism
    « Reply #14 on: December 14, 2013, 01:05:09 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Is it possible to baptize an unconscious and dying non-Catholic without any previous show of willingness?

    What is the Catholic teaching on that?

    I know that  Catholics in frequent contact with the dying such as nurses, were encouraged to baptize the Non-Catholic dying person even if they were unconscious (think, for example the dead wounded in battle). So regardless of the willingness of the person, it seems possible to baptize a Non Catholic adult right before dying?  


    This question is answered by Canon 752 found HERE

    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic