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Offline icterus

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Pro life movement
« on: December 30, 2013, 08:17:53 AM »
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  • Tiffany made an interesting post in a different thread criticizing the pro-life movement.  In order to avoid derailing the other thread, I've broken it out here for discussion.  Tiffany wrote:

    Quote
    Isn't it odd how the pro-life movement
    1) Is so tied with the GOP politicians and supports their "values" - basically laissez- faire capitalism while scapegoating the poor and loving having both sexes as a labor pool.  It goes beyond them mocking food stamp recipients. Young fathers need jobs that provide for a family.
    2) Pays almost zero attention to the birth control pill and other abortifacient drugs, except for the morning after pill.  I've seen where they had physicians removed from Catholic hospitals because they perform IVF, but physicians who prescribe the pill are guest speakers or on local crisis pregnancy center boards.
    3) They way they push adoption instead of advocating for and helping mother and child to stay together. I've seen them promote things that just go against nature at crisis pregnancy centers. Some crisis pregnancy centers are out to basically find babies for the affluent, and women have relinquished their rights under duress or from being tricked. Even the "good" ones often cast judgement on women who choose to parent - and this is in print not just an opinionated volunteer.
    4) Totally embrace feminism apart from what the upper class rejects -which is mothers of preschool aged children staying at home. I was looking at the March for life and saw "feminist for life" how ridiculous.
    5) They don't really teach chastity as far as their lifestyle.  You see "pro-life" student groups from Universities with women in them. Instead of encouraging young women to join a "pro-life group" on campus, they would encourage women to marry young and not live away from their father or guardian in a college dorm. They don't enforce proper distance between unmarried men and women.
    6) They do not teach  good standards of modesty and accept cross-dressing.
    7) They shy away from stating that women who have abortions are murdering their children, and they glamorize women who have committed multiple abortions then stopped. Holy women whatever their state may be should be set as the example. For most that will be a mother then grandmother of a large family but it could also be women with only spiritual children. The focus should be on that medical and surgical abortion is murder, and there is a right and wrong, women who have had abortion need confession, and not on what "women deserve."

    Offline icterus

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    Pro life movement
    « Reply #1 on: December 30, 2013, 08:34:16 AM »
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  • So, I'll take issue with some of these:

    Quote
    1) Is so tied with the GOP politicians


    Why wouldn't it be?  That is like saying "Isn't it odd how homosexual seem tied to Democrat politicians?".  What's odd about it?  Read the party platforms.  The pro life movement is obviously more compatible with one party, the homosexual agenda with the other?  Why is this "odd"?  You'll need to explain.  The NRA supports republicans....is that  "odd"?


    Quote
    and supports their "values" - basically laissez- faire capitalism while scapegoating the poor and loving having both sexes as a labor pool.


    A lot of republicans will laugh and shake their heads here.  I wish it was really for unfettered capitalism.  It's all about perspective, my dear.


    Quote
    It goes beyond them mocking food stamp recipients. Young fathers need jobs that provide for a family.


    So, I'd love to debate economics, but I'll let you decide and break out another thread if you like.


    Quote
    2) Pays almost zero attention to the birth control pill and other abortifacient drugs, except for the morning after pill.  I've seen where they had physicians removed from Catholic hospitals because they perform IVF, but physicians who prescribe the pill are guest speakers or on local crisis pregnancy center boards.


    I'm quote sure the "Pro Life Movement" doesn't remove anyone from any job.  Tha would be the governing board of the hospital...and if its a Catholic hospital the Bishop should darn well put pressure on the board to do so if the doctor is performing IVF.  SO, you'll need to explain what you're talking about here.  The "ProLife MOvement" is not exclusively Catholic.  It's a political movement and includes a lot of Protestants....they have no moral teachings on these things.

    So, why is this "Odd"?

     
    Quote
    3) They way they push adoption instead of advocating for and helping mother and child to stay together. I've seen them promote things that just go against nature at crisis pregnancy centers. Some crisis pregnancy centers are out to basically find babies for the affluent, and women have relinquished their rights under duress or from being tricked. Even the "good" ones often cast judgement on women who choose to parent - and this is in print not just an opinionated volunteer.


    This may be entirely valid.  I have no quarrel with it.  



    Quote
    4) Totally embrace feminism apart from what the upper class rejects -which is mothers of preschool aged children staying at home. I was looking at the March for life and saw "feminist for life" how ridiculous.


    One does not need to be an orthodox Catholic (or any Catholic, or even a Christian in any claimed way) to recognize the natural law written on men's hearts.  This is a Church Teaching, that even someone so screwed up as to claim to be a feminist can still tell right and wrong in the matter of murder.

    So why is this "odd"?

    Quote
    5) They don't really teach chastity as far as their lifestyle.  You see "pro-life" student groups from Universities with women in them. Instead of encouraging young women to join a "pro-life group" on campus, they would encourage women to marry young and not live away from their father or guardian in a college dorm. They don't enforce proper distance between unmarried men and women.


    Here you must be thinking of a "Pro-Chastity" group.  The "Pro Life" organization opposes abortion.  It is not a church.  It is not The Church.  It is a single-issue political advocacy group, and is not usually crusading on other matters, even related ones.

    Why is this "odd"?

     
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    6) They do not teach  good standards of modesty and accept cross-dressing.


    See above.  If you want the "Anti-cross dressing soceity" I'm sure one exists.  Otherwise, you appear to think the Pro-Life Movement" is the Catholic Church.  If it is not The Catholic Church, then why would you expect it to possess the fullness of all Truth?

    so, again, I don't see what's odd here.

    Quote
    7) They shy away from stating that women who have abortions are murdering their children, and they glamorize women who have committed multiple abortions then stopped.


    They are a political action group.  They know what impresses people.  See all above criticisms, as well as:

    Quote
    [21] And the son said to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, I am not now worthy to be called thy son. [22] And the father said to his servants: Bring forth quickly the first robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: [23] And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it, and let us eat and make merry: [24] Because this my son was dead, and is come to life again: was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. [25] Now his elder son was in the field, and when he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard music and dancing:

    [26] And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant. [27] And he said to him: Thy brother is come, and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe. [28] And he was angry, and would not go in. His father therefore coming out began to entreat him. [29] And he answering, said to his father: Behold, for so many years do I serve thee, and I have never transgressed thy commandment, and yet thou hast never given me a kid to make merry with my friends: [30] But as soon as this thy son is come, who hath devoured his substance with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.

    [31] But he said to him: Son, thou art always with me, and all I have is thine. [32] But it was fit that we should make merry and be glad, for this thy brother was dead and is come to life again; he was lost, and is found.


    It would seem that Jesus is also rejoicing over a murderer who repents.


    Offline Tiffany

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    « Reply #2 on: December 30, 2013, 08:53:29 AM »
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  • Because they claim they are for chastity but really are not.

     I've seen a pro-life group put pressure on to have a physician who performs IVF have their privileges removed from a Catholic hospital. OTOH physicians who prescribe the pill are embraced and put on boards or as speakers. Why is there is no pressure to have the physicians who prescribe the pill removed?

    Yes it's right to rejoice when a sinner stops sinning. My issue is with how they are glamorized.  We don't do the same with people who committed crimes of those already born. Can you imagine a magazine with stories how former Mr. Child Serial Murderer now is a happy father of the 3 children he did not murder? Or is volunteering in a classroom not killing the children?

    Offline icterus

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    « Reply #3 on: December 30, 2013, 09:00:39 AM »
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  • Quote
    I've seen a pro-life group put pressure on to have a physician who performs IVF have their privileges removed from a Catholic hospital.


    This is a good thing, no matter who champions it.

    Quote
    OTOH physicians who prescribe the pill are embraced and put on boards or as speakers. Why is there is no pressure to have the physicians who prescribe the pill removed?


    Because they are mostly Protestants and are inconsistent on this point.


    Again...why is it "odd" that a group which is not the Church is deficient in Truth?


    No group outside of the Church, is the Church.  

    A group outside of the Church is not completely indefectible =  Dog bites man.  It's not news.  It's certainly not "odd".  

    Offline Tiffany

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    « Reply #4 on: December 30, 2013, 09:22:05 AM »
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  • Quote from: icterus
    Quote
    I've seen a pro-life group put pressure on to have a physician who performs IVF have their privileges removed from a Catholic hospital.


    This is a good thing, no matter who champions it.

    Quote
    OTOH physicians who prescribe the pill are embraced and put on boards or as speakers. Why is there is no pressure to have the physicians who prescribe the pill removed?


    Because they are mostly Protestants and are inconsistent on this point.


    Again...why is it "odd" that a group which is not the Church is deficient in Truth?


    No group outside of the Church, is the Church.  

    A group outside of the Church is not completely indefectible =  Dog bites man.  It's not news.  It's certainly not "odd".  


    These were Catholic people but Catholic or not like you said there is still natural law and reasoning. Medical abortion is murder just like surgical abortion is murder.

    With the GOP it's silly you have people saying cherish life one minute and then comparing hungry children to insects in another.

    I've never said the pro-life group is the Church I told crossbro it's not. I was listing some of the things I've seen as a movement. I know protestants who teach chastity and they follow through with it, acknowledging how things are between men and women, there is consistency there.


    Offline icterus

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    « Reply #5 on: December 30, 2013, 09:38:36 AM »
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  • Quote
    With the GOP it's silly you have people saying cherish life one minute and then comparing hungry children to insects in another.


    So, I hate to sound condescending, but do you understand what a political party is?

    It's a group of people who gather together to form a voting bloc and select a group of candidates that are broadly compatible with the party platform.  The more parties that exist in a nation, the more narrowly focused they are.  In our system, we currently have two major parties, this means they are not focused at all.

    In the GOP, you currently have Randian Objectivists and NeoScoialists coexisting in the same party.  In the Democrat party, you have Marxists and NeoSocialists coexisting in the same party.  And, in both, literally everyone in-between.

    So, what is "odd" about seeing vast contradictions with a loose political coalition of very different people?   Again, none of the organizations you are talking about are the Church, so none of them are indefectible.

    This means they have vast defects.  

    The Republicans are very broadly right wing, the Democrats are very broadly left wing.  The Republicans are very, very approximately Austrian in economics, the Democrats are very, very approximately Keynesian.  They both try to do exactly the same thing: Appeal to a majority of Americans.

    If you are surprised that political parties are inconsistent, then maybe read a little about political parties.  Without both of those groups, those who want to protect life, and those who consider useless humans to be parasites, the GOP has no chance of creating a majority.  Without both the hardline communists and socialist democrats, the Democratic party has no chance to create a majority coalition.  

    Now, imagine trying to appeal to those disparate groups of people, and you might begin to understand why politicians are liars.  

    None of this is "odd".      


    Offline Tiffany

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    « Reply #6 on: December 30, 2013, 10:00:35 AM »
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  • It's the same people or person saying the inconsistent things in the pro-life movement.

    I'm not saying there shouldn't be defects in each political party but that the pro-life movement has such close ties with the GOP supports the GOP so much and ignores the problems. The GOP candidate is not a holy voice but they make it out to be.

    Offline icterus

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    « Reply #7 on: December 30, 2013, 10:04:12 AM »
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  • Quote
    The GOP candidate is not a holy voice but they make it out to be.


    So you have discovered that politicians lie.



    Congratulations.  


    Offline Tiffany

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    « Reply #8 on: December 30, 2013, 10:42:36 AM »
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  • Quote from: icterus
    Quote
    The GOP candidate is not a holy voice but they make it out to be.


    So you have discovered that politicians lie.



    Congratulations.  


    I'm not making it out to be a holy voice but that is what I see others doing, places like lifesitenews. That and their candidate can do no wrong but the opposing candidate is the devil.

    Offline icterus

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    « Reply #9 on: December 30, 2013, 11:14:47 AM »
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  • You have discovered a single-issue advocacy group.



    Congratulations.

    Online Matto

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    « Reply #10 on: December 30, 2013, 12:01:54 PM »
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  • Most pro-lifers are still liberals. They are just liberals who don't like obvious murder.  So they oppose abortion. Most of them are still not good Catholics who love God.
    I Love Watching Butterflies . . ..


    Offline songbird

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    « Reply #11 on: December 30, 2013, 03:33:38 PM »
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  •  I see these things:  Bishops who support and pay into abortion, homosexuality, porn and etc. through the use of Catholic Charities.  So, the Bishops keep their good looks of being Pro-life when the say rosaries, and pictures with babies and give money to the crisis center, maybe $10,000.  And again, they are giving much, much more to the above.  Then to add to that, we have pro-life organizations looking for money as well, and they will tell you that such and such Bishop is soooo Pro-life by what he said, or did, and truth is, the Bishops give to the Catholic Charities and etc. goes the story.  I have brought this up on Lifesitenews only to be told that I can no longer put state my opinions.  I did the same with pro-life organizations who take on the tax exempt status, and therefore can not say much about political people.

    I would like to see the truth come out again, and I get upset when I read about Bishops being so pro-life knowing that it is so easy to prove that their dioceses are paying into abortion, contraceptives for the kids  pregnancy prevention orgs that are set-up by planned parenthood and the United way and these groups teach the New Order kids.  

    Don't ge me wrong.  I am all for the crisis centers, but just remember who is paying for them and for the babies to be born, it is your State government.  They pay your pro-life doctor and etc.  What happens when the gov't decides to not do that?  

     

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