Author Topic: pregnant girl at mass (Read 32945 times)

Thorn · « **Reply #135 on:** July 06, 2012, 11:36:11 PM »

This is in answer to PW & Capt McQuigg regarding my post that PW's story doesn't ring true to me. First tho, I need to clarify, as it looks like most people here never read my intro - that I'm not a 'he' but a 'she' & an old one at that.

There is dissonance or mismatched statements & it's hard to put your finger on it but I'm going to try. I will go by paragraphs.

1. She grew up in a terrible NO home with a feminist mother & adulterist father, w/o positive influence yet she loved going to church albeit NO. Question for PW: How did you take your spirituality into your own teenage hands? Were you an only child? So - you HAD to go away to college after H.S. Isn't that what most HS grads did then? What did you want or plan to do instead? Your parents helped pay tuition if you worked, Sounds good & fair to me.

2. If you grew up with a feminist mother & only knew the NO, how did you or could you discern at that young inexperienced age if the professors were radical & brainwashing the students? Isn't that all you knew anyway? Isn't that what you already heard at home? (See what I mean about dissonance?)
Those messages were already in your head from your terrible home weren't they?
If provocative dress bothered you, why didn't you work at McDonalds, Carl's Jr., Chucky Cheese, Pizza Hut or any number of other fast food joints around. You yourself must have been drawn to a Hooters-like environment instead. Correct?

3 If your parents were so bad & you were already out of the house, why would their divorce send you into a depression, & even a deep depression?
When your mother visited you & asked if you'd been with a man yet, did she suggest the pill? That would be the logical advice from a feminist after broaching that subject wouldn't it?
You were losing respect for yourself at the same time working where provocative dress was required. Why? especially if you wanted to 'wait for marriage' & you worked there willingly I gather. btw - where did you get that quaint idea of waiting?

4. Is this man the only man you met while in college? Did you make any friends in college or work - male or female?
So he not only forced sex on you but beat you as well?

6. Why would he call you a whore if you were his? & had put up a fight? Obviously you're telling us that wasn't consenual so you're unjustly called a whore which you're not. Right?

7. Strange that you were raised by a feminist, further educated by them & steeped in the NO & yet you state the conservative, traditional mantra that you take no welfare because taxpayers shouldn't pay for your bad choices. Where, when & how did you learn that?
Trust me, thousands of us are frugal too & have had periods in our lives when money was scarce. No big deal there.

8. How many years did you go to college & did you graduate?

9. Where did you learn to cover your head in church? So far you've never mentioned the TLM & only know the NO & I've not seen anyone covering their heads in the NO but then I haven't been to very many NO. I'm just having difficulty understanding your story when all you've been around seems to be modernists & worse, yet you know quite a bit about tradition. Now your neighbor is a bouncer at a strip club & tempts you. More agony.

10. Indeed you do seem to be obsessing about finding a husband. You do need to work on yourself. Nothing wrong with that advice.

11. You feel that the Holy Spirit has called you to traditional Catholicism. How so? Where, when & how did you discover trad Catholicism? It couldn't have just shown up at your doorstep, did it? What would cause you to think you can't enter a trad church w/o a ring?
Did you read about keeping your daughter from others from tradition in action - the same website that told you to set about finding a husband willing to marry you? That priest was brought up NO & has been a trad only a few years & is definitely not an expert.

12. ALL you want is for a righteous man to not be afraid of you? Really? That's all you want? You may want to be a wife but God may have other plans. Then what?

Are your parents in the picture, or any siblings? What does your mother say & think now?

Now about the welfare. Of course the state will & should go after the father to pay up. Why shouldn't they? If the father is indeed as bad as you say, then they will order supervised visitation only. It is his child too you know. She has his genes. Chances are he won't want to bother with an infant & most likely will not bother. But he needs to pay. He's bluffing you big time if he thinks he'll get custody. A religious fanatic is laughable as you're going to the NO & even if you start to go to a trad church that won't be a problem.

Last question: Why don't you want to talk to a trad priest? If you're for real, he's the only one that can help you.

PenitentWoman · « **Reply #136 on:** July 07, 2012, 12:17:57 AM »

Thorn, I only have my phone right now so I am not able to reply piece by piece by I will try to explain myself better tomorrow.

Please understand that I did not truly realize how influenced my life was until AFTER the fact. I received counsel from an NO priest who explained to me all these things about feminism, objectifying the body, immodesty etc. and how they impacted my situation.

This priest first explained to me traditional Catholicism and I learned more online. When I read St. Paul's words on head covering, I felt called to start trying

morningstar · « **Reply #137 on:** July 07, 2012, 12:23:01 AM »

Good post, Thorn. I wondered many of the same questions.

PW, is there something keeping you from seeking the wise and holy counsel of a Traditional priest? Most have very excellent training and experience in helping people in your exact type of situation.

In reading several of your posts it's clear your soul (this would apply to any one of us at any given time) is in dire need of help. While it may be somewhat ok to seek advice and opinions from laymen, only a priest can truly help you. They possess what no other human does, the ability to administer the sacraments to you. The sacraments, combined with the sound and holy council from Father is where you will ultimately receive healing in your soul, from the Divine Physician, whereby there is no physical or spiritual ill He cannot heal.

It bears repeating, if it is at all possible I strongly urge and suggest you seek counsel from a priest. By submitting to Father's authority and obedience, he will, as Chrsit Himself, help guide you back on track. In my humble opinion, you need to do this first, BEFORE worrying about finding a husband. That should be the least of your priorities at the moment.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #138 on:** July 07, 2012, 01:08:03 AM »

I believe this poster is real. I don't see anything dissonant about what she's saying; many Novus Ordo types have heard a bit about tradition or somehow have certain traditional ideas.

As for her refusal to go to a traditional church, even that makes sense, because I know women who sound a lot like this, who seem to revolve in a constant state of neurosis, who almost seem addicted to negative thoughts and simply will not do what will bring them peace of mind, for whatever reason. You can say the same thing over and over to them, the answer is clear, and they will say "I know, I know," then go back to their hand-wringing and worrying. This is what happens, I suppose, when you bring a tendency to worry, or perhaps depression itself, into Catholicism. Maybe they don't know what to do with themselves if they aren't worrying, and are afraid to take the leap into confidence in God.

So this poster did not strike me as fake and at this point, still doesn't.

PenitentWoman · « **Reply #139 on:** July 07, 2012, 05:51:25 AM »

1. She grew up in a terrible NO home with a feminist mother & adulterist father, w/o positive influence yet she loved going to church albeit NO. Question for PW: How did you take your spirituality into your own teenage hands? Were you an only child? So - you HAD to go away to college after H.S. Isn't that what most HS grads did then? What did you want or plan to do instead? Your parents helped pay tuition if you worked, Sounds good & fair to me.

Maybe I was uncharitable with "terrible." It was no an ideal environment was the point.

Yes, I loved going to mass as a child. Is that so strange? Sometimes I went with parents, sometimes my Grandma. During 10th grade (confirmation time) I became very interested in faith after a retreat with a focus on Marian devotion. I just liked it.

As far as college? I really did not want to go away to school. I didn't necessarily want to live at home anymore, but had some girlfriends were staying close and going to community college. I had a hard time adjusting to school. My first dorm-mate made ME look sheltered. She had already been with men, drank, smoked etc. I just see now that I would not push my daughter to go into the secular college environment. My parents told me it would it be the best times of my life and I find that a little sad.

2. If you grew up with a feminist mother & only knew the NO, how did you or could you discern at that young inexperienced age if the professors were radical & brainwashing the students? Isn't that all you knew anyway? Isn't that what you already heard at home? (See what I mean about dissonance?)
Those messages were already in your head from your terrible home weren't they?
If provocative dress bothered you, why didn't you work at McDonalds, Carl's Jr., Chucky Cheese, Pizza Hut or any number of other fast food joints around. You yourself must have been drawn to a Hooters-like environment instead. Correct?

I could not have told you the professors were radical at the time. This was one of the many things I realized later. Much of it didn't sit with me right, but the element of authority did make me think a lot about the ideas presented.

I would not say it was what I already knew. Even though I have concluded my mother was indeed a feminist, she did not say things like "religion is foolish" etc. That was a new concept to me. My parents were/are cafeteria Catholic, but they were not atheist. That was new to me.

As far as the job. I took the job because I had heard it is a fun place to work. The outfit was short denim shorts and tight tank tops. Despite going to Catholic school K-12 I learned very little about the value of modesty. Our cheer leading outfits in HS were no better than public school. My parents had never forbid shorts, bikinis etc. As ignorant as it sounds, I had not connected in my head immodesty with attracting the wrong attention and creating an occasion of sin. I just dressed like everyone else did. I later learned how much easier it would have been to avoid certain situations and occasions of sin for myself if I had dressed better.

PenitentWoman · « **Reply #140 on:** July 07, 2012, 06:51:00 AM »

Sorry, desperately needed some coffee.

3 If your parents were so bad & you were already out of the house, why would their divorce send you into a depression, & even a deep depression?
When your mother visited you & asked if you'd been with a man yet, did she suggest the pill? That would be the logical advice from a feminist after broaching that subject wouldn't it?
You were losing respect for yourself at the same time working where provocative dress was required. Why? especially if you wanted to 'wait for marriage' & you worked there willingly I gather. btw - where did you get that quaint idea of waiting?

It was not the divorce itself, but how my parents decided it was a great time to pay more attention to me than ever before. My mom decided she wanted to become my friend. Instead of visiting as a parent as she always had before, she visited and wanted to be a friend. She wanted to go out drinking since I was 21 now and wanted to tell about her new boyfriend and how great it was to be free. I don't know if that is normal reaction to divorce or not. My Dad just wanted to make sure I knew every horrible thing about my Mom. Much of it was probably true, but it still hurt to hear it and it still does.

My mom told me about birth control long before college. I opted not to take it because my Grandma had breast cancer and insisted the pill gave it to her.

More to come...

PenitentWoman · « **Reply #141 on:** July 07, 2012, 07:28:20 AM »

6. Why would he call you a whore if you were his? & had put up a fight? Obviously you're telling us that wasn't consenual so you're unjustly called a whore which you're not. Right?

He called me a whore for getting pregnant. He had been with many other women and they didn't hold things up for sex OR get pregnant. I was too much work, I guess.

I didn't say it wasn't consensual. I stopped saying no to him. I allowed it to happen and I take responsibility for this.

7. Strange that you were raised by a feminist, further educated by them & steeped in the NO & yet you state the conservative, traditional mantra that you take no welfare because taxpayers shouldn't pay for your bad choices. Where, when & how did you learn that?
Trust me, thousands of us are frugal too & have had periods in our lives when money was scarce. No big deal there.

My mother tells me all the time I should take welfare, state insurance etc. That I am an idiot for not taking advantage. When I starting getting back to going to mass and researching the faith online (during my pregnancy) I saw these programs were socialist and felt they were wrong. I really wanted to be a better person and not live the same way anymore. I don't want my daughter to go through the same things. I want to be an example to her.

8. How many years did you go to college & did you graduate?

I went for 4 years and I have a B.S. in Business Administration.

9. Where did you learn to cover your head in church? So far you've never mentioned the TLM & only know the NO & I've not seen anyone covering their heads in the NO but then I haven't been to very many NO. I'm just having difficulty understanding your story when all you've been around seems to be modernists & worse, yet you know quite a bit about tradition. Now your neighbor is a bouncer at a strip club & tempts you. More agony.

I feel like you are making fun of me. The NO priest and I were discussing different types of Catholicism and this was my first awareness that there was still mass done in Latin in some places. I was intrigued and researched this. There are lots of forums and blogs online for Catholic women and head covering is a central topic of conversation. NO women argue about if Vatican II made it okay to stop or not. I started by just wearing a bandanna or a scarf so it wasn't to obvious. I liked how it felt. I like something about the scripture about men not covering as they are reflection of man, but women cover as they are reflection of man. I don't know why. I have never seen anyone cover at NO mass. I don't have a veil, as that seems like I would be trying to hard, maybe?

I did some Perpetual adoration time and felt very strongly I needed to be covered. Again, I don't know why. Humility, I guess.

10. Indeed you do seem to be obsessing about finding a husband. You do need to work on yourself. Nothing wrong with that advice.

:-(

11. You feel that the Holy Spirit has called you to traditional Catholicism. How so? Where, when & how did you discover trad Catholicism? It couldn't have just shown up at your doorstep, did it? What would cause you to think you can't enter a trad church w/o a ring?
Did you read about keeping your daughter from others from tradition in action - the same website that told you to set about finding a husband willing to marry you? That priest was brought up NO & has been a trad only a few years & is definitely not an expert.

I learned about TLM from the priest. I researched and learned about it online. I can't stop thinking about it. Many forums discuss all the levels and churches. I have a lot to learn, but I have a basic understanding.
Yes, the tradition in action site is wear I learned about keeping illegitimate children away from others. At least that was my interpretation.

12. ALL you want is for a righteous man to not be afraid of you? Really? That's all you want? You may want to be a wife but God may have other plans. Then what?

I don't know how to answer that. I want to be married.

PenitentWoman · « **Reply #142 on:** July 07, 2012, 08:33:27 AM »

Are your parents in the picture, or any siblings? What does your mother say & think now?

I am an only child. I speak to my mom often but we are not on the same page about a lot of things. She thinks that I have become too religious now too. My Dad and I speak occasionally. He is engaged and I am trying to get him to try to get an annulment and marry in the church, but no such luck. He thinks it will be too much work.

Now about the welfare. Of course the state will & should go after the father to pay up. Why shouldn't they? If the father is indeed as bad as you say, then they will order supervised visitation only. It is his child too you know. She has his genes. Chances are he won't want to bother with an infant & most likely will not bother. But he needs to pay. He's bluffing you big time if he thinks he'll get custody. A religious fanatic is laughable as you're going to the NO & even if you start to go to a trad church that won't be a problem.

I never said it was not his child too. I have never denied him the right to be involved and have in fact tried to make it easy for him to do so. He did not respond to my text when I found out I was having a girl, nor when I had given birth. I did all those things without him supporting me emotionally and that is really hard to do. It is embarrassing. He did not want me to have her. He had only been decent to me about the pregnancy when I was considering abortion.

We communicated on his terms during the pregnancy and in the first months after I had her. I had moved back to my hometown so we did not see each other in person anymore. I offered to bring her to him but he would deny she was even his or just ignore my calls/texts. I gave up trying to change him for Lent. I would welcome him meeting his daughter at anytime, but I don't want to risk losing her for say, Easter Sunday, because he decides he wants to play house because he has to pay child support anyway. As far as I know he is not even employed anymore but does personal training on a private basis and probably gets paid cash. Is it worth it to even try to get money? He didn't want her.

Also, he is not religious and even if he was he said he does not agree with how Catholics interpret the bible. I am afraid that will influence my daughter if they are alone together.

Last question: Why don't you want to talk to a trad priest? If you're for real, he's the only one that can help you.

Posting here is showing exactly why I am afraid. Clearly I do not present myself as seeming very genuine. I read about Traditional Catholics and I want to be a part of it but I am intimidated. I worry about the ring because I bet there are not many unwed mothers in a traditional church pew and I am embarrassed. I have even thought before about going to Wal-Mart and buying one of those cheep fake rings just so I am not stared at. I also feel like maybe I just look like I am trying to hard. People who knew me before will see me dressed conservatively and wonder why. Where I grew up even the "good girls" dressed "normally" and not in long skirts or dresses below the knee. I guess my fears about traditional catholic settings amount to me sinfully judging people as I am assuming they will judge me. I need to get over it. I am also nervous I will screw up taking communion or do something wrong. I am nervous to talk to a trad priest for these same reasons. I just feel so ashamed. I don't want to be looked at like a fake.

I WISH I did not feel so interested in this. I wish the idea never came to me and then I could stay in my NO comfort zone where I was praised just for going back to church. I wish I didn't like the head covering idea as much as I have. I could still be Catholic and it would not seem so drastic to everyone.

The fact is though, that I just can't ignore it. The Holy Spirit is nudging me. Blessed mother is nudging me, saying, this it isn't enough. The NO priest told me that with the happenings of world and national events related to Catholicism, I should consider TLM. He felt that as an unwed mother, that path might be the best for me for what I wanted (marriage, staying at home) because it would give a better change of a secure marriage and the protection and guidance of a husband that I needed. I took that to heart and really looked into it. I really liked/like everything I hear. It feels like something that could benefit me. Is that strange? Is it silly?

I want a changed life. I hate that I cannot stay home with my baby (I have missed most of her life!) and so I want a traditional husband who would support (hopefully encourage) that role. I would work very hard to keep a home and grow and nurture a family. It feels very natural to me. I want her to have siblings because I never did and I was lonely. I want her to have a father that does not feel pushed way from the home. I want to show him the affection and appreciation that my mom never did for my dad.

I feel like I need a way to make sure I don't get on the wrong path again. I don't want to settle for man that will not agree to follow the teachings of the church. I don't want to objectify myself anymore. I feel the Catholic teaching on how the marital act should be is very beautiful. Most NO men do not want to be open to life. I like being a mom. I even daydream about another baby already. It just feels natural to me to mother and care for a child. Maybe because I have to share her so much.

My choices have brought me so much pain and I don't want that anymore. I am a different person now, it is just hard to live that out because of my circuмstances. I feel like I could do all this so much better with a guidance of a good, loving husband. If I could just prove myself as loyal and hardworking person and a loving mother then I could have someone to hold my hand as I learn specifically how to be a traditional catholic in practice. I guess I am thinking in the wrong order and need to start proving myself devout first. I am just sick of feeling like I need to be so independent and shouldn't need a man.

I wish I could explain myself better.

PenitentWoman · « **Reply #143 on:** July 07, 2012, 08:47:02 AM »

Quote from: PenitentWoman

6. Why would he call you a whore if you were his? & had put up a fight? Obviously you're telling us that wasn't consenual so you're unjustly called a whore which you're not. Right?

He called me a whore for getting pregnant. He had been with many other women and they didn't hold things up for sex OR get pregnant. I was too much work, I guess.

I didn't say it wasn't consensual. I stopped saying no to him. I allowed it to happen and I take responsibility for this.

7. Strange that you were raised by a feminist, further educated by them & steeped in the NO & yet you state the conservative, traditional mantra that you take no welfare because taxpayers shouldn't pay for your bad choices. Where, when & how did you learn that?
Trust me, thousands of us are frugal too & have had periods in our lives when money was scarce. No big deal there.

My mother tells me all the time I should take welfare, state insurance etc. That I am an idiot for not taking advantage. When I starting getting back to going to mass and researching the faith online (during my pregnancy) I saw these programs were socialist and felt they were wrong. I really wanted to be a better person and not live the same way anymore. I don't want my daughter to go through the same things. I want to be an example to her.

8. How many years did you go to college & did you graduate?

I went for 4 years and I have a B.S. in Business Administration.

9. Where did you learn to cover your head in church? So far you've never mentioned the TLM & only know the NO & I've not seen anyone covering their heads in the NO but then I haven't been to very many NO. I'm just having difficulty understanding your story when all you've been around seems to be modernists & worse, yet you know quite a bit about tradition. Now your neighbor is a bouncer at a strip club & tempts you. More agony.

I feel like you are making fun of me. The NO priest and I were discussing different types of Catholicism and this was my first awareness that there was still mass done in Latin in some places. I was intrigued and researched this. There are lots of forums and blogs online for Catholic women and head covering is a central topic of conversation. NO women argue about if Vatican II made it okay to stop or not. I started by just wearing a bandanna or a scarf so it wasn't to obvious. I liked how it felt. I like something about the scripture about men not covering as they are reflection of man, but women cover as they are reflection of man. I don't know why. I have never seen anyone cover at NO mass. I don't have a veil, as that seems like I would be trying to hard, maybe?

I did some Perpetual adoration time and felt very strongly I needed to be covered. Again, I don't know why. Humility, I guess.

10. Indeed you do seem to be obsessing about finding a husband. You do need to work on yourself. Nothing wrong with that advice.

:-(

11. You feel that the Holy Spirit has called you to traditional Catholicism. How so? Where, when & how did you discover trad Catholicism? It couldn't have just shown up at your doorstep, did it? What would cause you to think you can't enter a trad church w/o a ring?
Did you read about keeping your daughter from others from tradition in action - the same website that told you to set about finding a husband willing to marry you? That priest was brought up NO & has been a trad only a few years & is definitely not an expert.

I learned about TLM from the priest. I researched and learned about it online. I can't stop thinking about it. Many forums discuss all the levels and churches. I have a lot to learn, but I have a basic understanding.
Yes, the tradition in action site is wear I learned about keeping illegitimate children away from others. At least that was my interpretation.

12. ALL you want is for a righteous man to not be afraid of you? Really? That's all you want? You may want to be a wife but God may have other plans. Then what?

I don't know how to answer that. I want to be married.

I made a typo. I meant to say men do not cover as they are the image and reflection of GOD.

Tiffany · « **Reply #144 on:** July 07, 2012, 09:29:13 AM »

You will feel out of place at times, not only because you are single but other reasons so.

Your feelings will be hurt and you will have people (even very nice ones) that have no clue what you life is like but give you advice that is only hurtful to you, even if they had good intentions. It's not easy, and it can be hard at times not to focus on negative feelings. Keep things that encourage you around.

I am constantly overwhelmed by our poverty, trying to keep my child out of public school. Year of this has taken a toll on me, physically and psychologically.

Don't let difficulties stop you. Your child's soul is what you are fighting for.

PenitentWoman · « **Reply #145 on:** July 07, 2012, 09:42:39 AM »

Tiffany, what are the other reasons besides being single? Are they things I can change about myself or are you talking about my past that I can't change? I can handle the truth.

I am so sorry you are going through rough times. When I have to go without things and I find myself pouting in my mind, I try to remind myself that being poor in America is nothing like poverty elsewhere in the world. In a way, being without disposable income has helped me have better values all around. (((Hugs)))

Philomena · « **Reply #146 on:** July 07, 2012, 09:49:50 AM »

PW, I would kindly ask if you would not be so graphic in your posts. This is after all a Catholic forum.

Much of your writings, especially the longer past 3-4 posts are filled with some rather crude, vulgar, and quite graphic language. I'm speaking specifically of when you're describing intimate relations, and immodest dress.

One does not need to describe such details as these using this kind of language. Please use some discretion and modesty. Modesty btw, is far more than dress, it also governs how we think, speak (write); it's an interior disposition which manifests in all of our exterior actions.

I don't mean to be harsh, but some of the things you wrote about should only be discussed in the utmost privacy between you and a priest, or perhaps a trusted friend in private, but certainly not on a public message board for all the world to read!

In charity I must say, a good deal of what you wrote I found to be scandalous, and I looked away. I realise you are trying to tell a story and convey your message, but there is a way to do that without using some of the graphic language. We do not need to hear every nitty-gritty sordid detail. All I'm suggesting, is please try and use a little prudence when speaking (writing). In other words, not using crude and impure language, but when speaking of delicate things try and do so in a Catholic way. I hope this makes sense to you, and I hope I say these things charitably by offering a gentle fraternal correction. For the good of your soul, and all who read here.

God bless you.

PenitentWoman · « **Reply #147 on:** July 07, 2012, 10:04:24 AM »

I so sorry. ;-( maybe I should delete them. I am pretty quiet with strangers in person but obviously when I write I go overboard. I sincerely apologize for offending you and anyone .else. Clearly, I am not cut out for this and I am just embarrassing myself.

I think maybe I just need to rethink why I am posting here. Again, I'm very sorry
I only shared details because of questions I had been asked. :-(

I have read other Catholic sites where people recite details from Theology of the body and such and I guess I just didn't think. I'm sorry.

Philomena · « **Reply #148 on:** July 07, 2012, 10:10:18 AM »

PW, my post was not intended to run you off. It was meant as a help. As Catholic ladies, we should use lady-like speech. There are many ways you can write what you did above and not use the graphic, impure language. We have to remember to be careful so that we are not an occasion of sin for others.

God bless you.

p.s. Most of the traditional Catholics whom I know reject "Theology of the Body" as a heretical work. You are correct, it is filled with gratuitous, scandalous language. It should not be read and certainly not used as a standard for anything truly Catholic.

PenitentWoman · « **Reply #149 on:** July 07, 2012, 11:05:08 AM »

I feel so humiliated by myself that now I have made myself look even worse. That was not my goal. I guess I felt a little defensive about the questions, which I apologize for as well.

I am feeling a little overwhelmed by what I have to learn and live up to
Considering the crass and suggestive comments I hear on a daily basis in life, I really did not even realize I was speaking immodestly. This is the first co-ed Catholic forum I have ever posted on. Many of the boards for Catholic women have graphic content regarding the marital act. I need to avoid reading those, as I suppose they just further desensitize me since I am not married and shouldn't concern myself with those things. I really hope my comments were not harmful to the men who read them. I am not used to communicating with righteous men and i apologize for being disresptcful. It was not my intent to scandalize.