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Offline forlorn

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Re: Posting Porn is OK?
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2019, 10:21:47 PM »
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    • Pornography doesn't fall under free speech, nor does free speech refer to private institutions. Do you think teachers should also have the "freedom of speech" to show students pornography? I normally agree with you Ascanio but you're just being frankly ridiculous here. Porn is not the hill to die on. 
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Posting Porn is OK?
    « Reply #16 on: November 27, 2019, 11:32:52 PM »
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    • Quote
    Pay special attention to the tenets of the Faith that most make you recoil!
    That's it in a nutshell. 

    It is easy to love those who love us. It is hard to love those who hate us. 

    Similarly, it is easy to obey the tenets that we like to obey, but the Christian life comprises more than what we like. Jesus shows us how to take up our cross. We just have to bite the bullet.
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    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Offline poche

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    Re: Posting Porn is OK?
    « Reply #17 on: November 28, 2019, 02:44:32 AM »
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    • I think that posting porn would be grave matter and you would have to go to confession. Your immortal soul would be in danger and if you don't go to Hell you could spend a very long time in Purgatory. 
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    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: Posting Porn is OK?
    « Reply #18 on: November 28, 2019, 04:45:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: poche on November 28, 2019, 02:44:32 AM
    I think that posting porn would be grave matter and you would have to go to confession. Your immortal soul would be in danger and if you don't go to Hell you could spend a very long time in Purgatory.
    I never said that I would post porn. I affirm that I would support your right to post porn.
    .
    .
    Quote from: forlorn on November 27, 2019, 10:21:47 PM
    Pornography doesn't fall under free speech, nor does free speech refer to private institutions. Do you think teachers should also have the "freedom of speech" to show students pornography? I normally agree with you Ascanio but you're just being frankly ridiculous here. Porn is not the hill to die on.
    I disagree that pornography does not fall under free speech but I agree that private institutions should be free to regulate free speech and pornography.
    .
    I never affirmed that the owner cannot regulate free speech. I affirmed that (in my opinion) he should not. He is perfectly entitled to regulate and censor whatever he likes because this is a private platform.
    .
    Private schools and teachers operate under a different profile from state owned schools. The former can offer whatever instruction they freely contract with the parents of the pupils, even porn (but I doubt that any parent would then send their children to that school). The latter do not enjoy the same freedom because they are funded by and, utlimately governed by (through the democratic voting process), the taxpayers.
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    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: Posting Porn is OK?
    « Reply #19 on: November 28, 2019, 04:56:27 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mark 79 on November 27, 2019, 09:30:02 PM
    As I said, the Faith is knowable.
    The knowable Faith develops your sensus fidelium.
    Since you freely stipulated your poor formation, the rational step is to suspend your opinions and review each against the knowable Faith.  Pay special attention to the tenets of the Faith that most make you recoil!  Those require the most and earliest work. If you shirk or delay, there is high probability that those will be the sticking points that take you down.
    I agree that Faith is knowable but I do not agree that interpretation is univocal because we have been endowed with free will.
    .
    I also stipulated my ignorance and I agree that the rational step is to suspend my opinions and review them against the knowable Faith. But I choose not to assuming the responsibility in front of God for the use of my free will.
    .
    I understand how you differentiate V2 and free speech based on knowable knowldge and opinion. I appreciate how you obey the doctrine of suppression of free speech and reject the doctrine of V2. I very simply do not agree with your interpretation and I also believe that the suppression of free speech will hurt our Church in these difficult times when discussions, debates and confrontations must be sought rather than suppressed.
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    .
    --------
    @ Nadir,
    "A sensus fidelum is a marvellous gift direct from the Blessed Trinity."
    I am less fortunate than you as I only recently begun to enjoy the Grace of our Liturgy. This lesser state of mine, probably skews my sensus fidelum because it induces me to protect free speech against the teachings of the Catholic doctrine as others reject V2.
    .
    "When we receive the great gift of Faith, we do not negotiate which doctrines we agree with and which we don't agree with. When there is a difference between what the Church (God) teaches and what you believe, you can be absolutely sure that you are wrong. Then you acknowledge humbly that God knows best. That is a path which is perfectly safe, but you  say "I may very well err, even if always in good faith" when you have been given the knowledge required to know the church teaching, and such an path is a very dangerous one. Beware of who wants to stop you and your family from attaining eternal salvation."
    Maybe, through my own fault, I have not yet received the knowledge required to know the Church teachings to attain eternal salvation and I pray to God that he will be merciful as my intentions are genuine and in good faith.
    .
    .

    Quote from: Jaynek on November 27, 2019, 06:15:11 PM
    Even the government does not support unlimited free speech. One is not free to incite violence or ιnѕυrrєcтισn.  One is not free to harm the reputation of others. Here in Canada, we even have laws against hate speech that trump its supposed right to free speech.  
    This is an excellent point. I reject Canada's approach and I embrace the US First Amendment.
    .
    I agree that free speech does not include calling for physical violence but I do not agree that pornography or spreading lies is equivalent to calling for physical violence.
    .

    Quote from: Jaynek on November 27, 2019, 06:15:11 PM
    The Founding Fathers of America cannot be taken as moral or religious guides. Their underlying philosophical position comes from the "Enlightenment" an error-filled anti-Catholic view.
    I am aware of the error-filled antu-Catholic views and I am not taking the Fuounding Fathers' of America as moral or religious guideline.

    But I am endowed with free will and I freely choose what I like and don't like from good and bad sources. An evil person may still perform a good deed and an evil book may still contain a good concept.

    The First Amendment is a personal inspiration. My choice to protect free speech certainly derives from this inspiration but is not bound by it. It is an expression of my free will.
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    Offline poche

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    Re: Posting Porn is OK?
    « Reply #20 on: November 28, 2019, 05:15:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: ascanio1 on November 28, 2019, 04:45:54 AM
    I never said that I would post porn. I affirm that I would support your right to post porn.
    .
    .I disagree that pornography does not fall under free speech but I agree that private institutions should be free to regulate free speech and pornography.
    .
    I never affirmed that the owner cannot regulate free speech. I affirmed that (in my opinion) he should not. He is perfectly entitled to regulate and censor whatever he likes because this is a private platform.
    .
    Private schools and teachers operate under a different profile from state owned schools. The former can offer whatever instruction they freely contract with the parents of the pupils, even porn (but I doubt that any parent would then send their children to that school). The latter do not enjoy the same freedom because they are funded by and, utlimately governed by (through the democratic voting process), the taxpayers.
    I can remember a time when you could go to jail for distributing pornography.  
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Posting Porn is OK?
    « Reply #21 on: November 28, 2019, 05:17:29 AM »
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    • Quote from: ascanio1 on November 28, 2019, 04:45:54 AM
    I never said that I would post porn. I affirm that I would support your right to post porn.
    .
    .I disagree that pornography does not fall under free speech but I agree that private institutions should be free to regulate free speech and pornography.
    .
    I never affirmed that the owner cannot regulate free speech. I affirmed that (in my opinion) he should not. He is perfectly entitled to regulate and censor whatever he likes because this is a private platform.
    .
    Private schools and teachers operate under a different profile from state owned schools. The former can offer whatever instruction they freely contract with the parents of the pupils, even porn (but I doubt that any parent would then send their children to that school). The latter do not enjoy the same freedom because they are funded by and, utlimately governed by (through the democratic voting process), the taxpayers.
    Why do you feel like the owner of a Catholic forum should not ban pornography? What relevance has it to the topic - why should he allow users to be disgusted, scandalised and put into occasions of sin?

    Regulation of free speech on all platforms is a must. You'd hardly also argue that the owner of a children's TV channel should not ban pornography? Now, we aren't children, but it's still harmful and not at all relevant to us too.

    All the right to free speech has ever meant is that the government won't come after you, and that right has actually never really existed in its broadest sense. Even in America you wouldn't get away with broadcasting troop movements, etc. But it's just speech, right? Lie about someone and you could find yourself sued to ****.
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    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: Posting Porn is OK?
    « Reply #22 on: November 28, 2019, 05:21:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on November 27, 2019, 06:15:11 PM
    Even the government does not support unlimited free speech.
    The US Constitution does. Anything short of inciting physical violence if permitted and I strongly, vigorously, support this freedom that my country, Italy, unfortunately does not enjoy.
    .
    Quote from: Jaynek on November 27, 2019, 06:15:11 PM
    One is not free to harm the reputation of others.
    Yes one is free to harm (not physically harm) others, through free speech, but then one will answer for the damages that he causes.
    .
    This is exactly the principle that I uphold! poche is free to lie and spread falsehoods (if indeed such they are) through free speech, but then one will answer to God for the damages that he causes. Not to man.
    .
    Quote from: Jaynek on November 27, 2019, 06:15:11 PM
    There are many places that supposedly have free speech where it is illegal to say that ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity is a sin, that people cannot really change their sex, or to question that Germany killed 6 million Jews during the so-called h0Ɩ0cαųst.
    And I disagree with these laws. One should be free to say that ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity is a sin.
    .
    In a school (Opus Dei) fathers' forum conversation I was accused and attacked for saying exactly this: "ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity is wrong and we should pray that those with inverted sɛҳuąƖ preferences be cured by the Holy Spirit". I was almost banned by the (Opus Dei) School management.
    .
    This is why I am so vigorously in favour of free speech: to protect the Church's teachings. I belive, in good faith, and God will judge me, that to protect some doctrines of the Church I must violate other doctrines of the Church.
    .
    Quote from: Jaynek on November 27, 2019, 06:15:11 PM
    There are endless exceptions and loop holes and we are well on our way to Catholicism being illegal due to allegedly being being homophobic, bigoted and generally evil.
    Again, a perfect argument in favour of free speech.
    .
    Quote from: Jaynek on November 27, 2019, 06:15:11 PM
    You are using the current crisis as an excuse to ignore teachings from a time when there was no reason to question Church doctrines.
    I disagree on this point. The very reason why I support free speech, is to protect the freedom of expression of our Church's teachings and the freedom to practice of our precepts.
    .
    Quote from: Jaynek on November 27, 2019, 06:15:11 PM
    Everyone here has a right to judge that your thinking on this is wrong because it is objectively wrong according to Church teaching. It is not something for God alone to judge.
    I agree 100%.
    .
    And this right to express your opinion is granted by the right to free speech.
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    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: Posting Porn is OK?
    « Reply #23 on: November 28, 2019, 05:37:56 AM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on November 28, 2019, 05:17:29 AM
    Why do you feel like the owner of a Catholic forum should not ban pornography? What relevance has it to the topic - why should he allow users to be disgusted, scandalised and put into occasions of sin?
    He can ban it.
    .
    But, if a pornographic image is the only way to explain something that words cannot explain, then the owner should choose to not ban it, to allow the conversation to develop. If he does not want the conversation to develop, that is another matter.
    .
    Personally, I believe that we should have as many controversial conversations as possible because today the new "radicals" are the traditionalists. Today who suffers most from de-platforming and censorship are traditional conservatives!
    .
    I was banned from a webstie for asking that all candidate nannies would teach Catholic precepts to my daughter and refrain from offering influences contrary to the Catholic precepts.
    .
    We are in very dangerous times where censorship is used against the Catholic Church. It is extreemely dangerous to allow any form of censorship because we cannot pick and choose what to censor and what not based on our Faith because we live in a free world: we cannot hope to enforce freedom of speech only for Catholic ideas and censorship only for heresy and error.
    .
    Given reality (i.e. we live in this context) it is preferable to allow all free speech rather than allow states to regulate it.
    .
    I would agree to censorship, according to Catholic doctrine, if we lived in a perfect Catholic world. Given the special and very dire circuмstances, like Cardinal Lefevbre, we must act out of necessity and violate a doctrine that supresses free speech to preserve the freedom to protect and talk about our Faith.
    .
    Quote from: forlorn on November 28, 2019, 05:17:29 AM
    Regulation of free speech on all platforms is a must. You'd hardly also argue that the owner of a children's TV channel should not ban pornography? Now, we aren't children, but it's still harmful and not at all relevant to us too.
    I like this example because it offers the opportunity to discuss context.

    A children's TV channel is constrained by the channel owner interest. If the channel owner publishes pornography on a children's TV channel, very soon parents will not allow children to watch it. Owners of other channels, who seek different audiences, in fact do publish porn.

    Similarly, the owner of this platform will determine what audience he desires.
    .
    If the owner wants to protect Truth and the Church then, I believe, he should allow lies to be published so that these lies can be demonstrated such and proven wrong.
    .
    If the owner wants to protect an depth discussion, exlucively amongst individuals who already agree on certain matters then he should not allow lies to be published as these distract from the scope of the platform.
    .
    Quote from: forlorn on November 28, 2019, 05:17:29 AM
    Now, we aren't children, but it's still harmful and not at all relevant to us too.
    Of the harm of lies in this context I am not certain.
    .
    In this context I believe that they are relevant because viewers can benefited from lies been exposed and proven wrong. I, for one, found rgeater convition reading why the lies were wrong than simply when members stated that they were wrong. The exercise of proving them wrong was beneficial to me.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Posting Porn is OK?
    « Reply #24 on: November 28, 2019, 05:46:21 AM »
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    • Quote from: ascanio1 on November 28, 2019, 05:37:56 AM
    He can ban it.
    .
    But, if a pornographic image is the only way to explain something that words cannot explain, then the owner should choose to not ban it, to allow the conversation to develop. If he does not want the conversation to develop, that is another matter.
    .
    Personally, I believe that we should have as many controversial conversations as possible because today the new "radicals" are the traditionalists. Today who suffers most from de-platforming and censorship are traditional conservatives!
    .
    I was banned from a webstie for asking that all candidate nannies would teach Catholic precepts to my daughter and refrain from offering influences contrary to the Catholic precepts.
    .
    We are in very dangerous times where censorship is used against the Catholic Church. It is extreemely dangerous to allow any form of censorship because we cannot pick and choose what to censor and what not based on our Faith because we live in a free world: we cannot hope to enforce freedom of speech only for Catholic ideas and censorship only for heresy and error.
    .
    Given reality (i.e. we live in this context) it is preferable to allow all free speech rather than allow states to regulate it.
    .
    I would agree to censorship, according to Catholic doctrine, if we lived in a perfect Catholic world. Given the special and very dire circuмstances, like Cardinal Lefevbre, we must act out of necessity and violate a doctrine that supresses free speech to preserve the freedom to protect and talk about our Faith.
    Your opinion isn't novel here, a pope expressed a similar view(he expressed that America's free speech was much better than the alternative, Protestant suppression of Catholicism), but porn is really not the hill to die on. You'll never need to post it to express a point, and it's normal for any site(even sites I know with 0 restriction on what you can say) to ban it. You're reducing your own position to absurdity, frankly. I'm generally with you on being against censorship, etc. but I think you're weakening your argument by stretching to to the extremes. 
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    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: Posting Porn is OK?
    « Reply #25 on: November 28, 2019, 06:03:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on November 28, 2019, 05:46:21 AM
    You'll never need to post it to express a point, and it's normal for any site(even sites I know with 0 restriction on what you can say) to ban it. You're reducing your own position to absurdity, frankly. I'm generally with you on being against censorship, etc. but I think you're weakening your argument by stretching to to the extremes.
    Forlon, citing porn was not my choice of example. It was Mark's. I simply agreed to develop the consequential dialogue.
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    I  fact, I criticised Mark for using porn as an example as, I agree with you, there would be very few practical or real instances where porn would be necessary to explain a concept. But, nonetheles, in principle, it would be permissible.
    .
    It is like those who attack pro-life positions: "...what if the mother is about to die?"... they cite extreeme cases to make a general case. It is wrong. Mark was wrong to use pornography in analogy. But, just as I would still debate against pro-abortion, even on exceptional circuмstances like the mother dieing, I still debate against suppression of free speech, even on exceptional circuмstances, like porn.
    .
    Protecting the freedom to publish porn is merely an exercise to protect the principle, not porn itself. Obviously I am against porn!
    .
    Quote from: forlorn on November 28, 2019, 05:46:21 AM
    You're reducing your own position to absurdity, frankly.
    No I am not reducing it to absurdity. Mark is reducing free speech to absurdity as no one ever will post porn here (I hope). I am merely defending the principle on Mark's (absurd) chosen ground of debate.
    .
    I agree with you, discussing about porn is absurd and I would much rather discuss about freedom of speech rather than freedom of porn. Mark chose this thread title to attck the principle and, if I want to defend the principle, this is my stance.
    .
    Forlon, you have no idea (or maybe you do) to what absurd logics I am subjected to defend my Faith. Yet I do not walk away and I confront them. At school, other fathers presente ridiculous theories that would prove that honosɛҳuąƖity is natural. I cannot back down on the principle, even if there are absurd exceptions.
    .
    Quote from: forlorn on November 28, 2019, 05:46:21 AM
    I'm generally with you on being against censorship, etc. but I think you're weakening your argument by stretching to to the extremes.
    I am not stretching it to the extreems, I am only following Mark's stretching of free speech to the extreems of porn.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Posting Porn is OK?
    « Reply #26 on: November 28, 2019, 06:06:21 AM »
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    • Even in societies which value free speech, porn is a red herring.  Free speech does not mean obscenity, blasphemy, obscene/offensive language, etc.  I am not permitted to walk around in public naked on account of "free speech".  Free speech is meant to allow people to express IDEAS, and to protect them from persecution by the government for thoughts contrary to their policies ... to prevent the practice, common among tin-pot dictators, of merely eliminating or jailing their political opponents.  And, in fact, while REAL free speech is being taken away, being labeled "hate speech," they leave the porn out there to make people THINK they have free speech while in fact it's being taken away.  While people are routinely persecuted for saying anything against the Jews, for instance, (e.g. +Williamson), people are free to surf their porn, so they think they still have free speech.  Not to mention that the Jews have made it clear that they're using the porn to weaken and soften the goy so that they can more easily be controlled.  Many historians have concluded that the Roman Empire fell once their people got used to luxury and gave themselves over to hedonism.

    So, for instance, free speech would allow someone to express the idea that porn should be legal, but it doesn't actually give them the right to have porn or to sell it.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Posting Porn is OK?
    « Reply #27 on: November 28, 2019, 06:09:36 AM »
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    • Quote from: ascanio1 on November 28, 2019, 06:03:37 AM
    Protecting the freedom to publish porn is merely an exercise to protect the principle, not porn itself. Obviously I am against porn!

    So what would you say about blasphemous art?  Is that protected?  Am I allowed to depict Our Lord in dung?

    Again, you're misconstruing the principle (not that I grant it in the first place).  You protect the freedom for someone to walk around with a sign saying "make porn legal" ... but porn doesn't have to be legal to safeguard this principle.  PORN ITSELF is NOT FREE SPEECH.  What intellectual or political point is being communicated through porn?  None.  Also, do not construe so-called "artistic freedom" with "free speech".  They are not the same thing.  Free speech is the right to express IDEAS and THOUGHTS.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Posting Porn is OK?
    « Reply #28 on: November 28, 2019, 06:22:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: ascanio1 on November 28, 2019, 05:37:56 AM
    But, if a pornographic image is the only way to explain something that words cannot explain, then the owner should choose to not ban it, to allow the conversation to develop.

    There's nothing of any intellectual substance that requires a pornographic image.

    Plus, you really start having to think like a Catholic about this.  Exposure to a pornographic image could cause sin ... the death of a soul.  Even secular societies curtail the exercise of free speech to things that do not cause harm to others ... with yelling "Fire!" in a theater being the canonical example given.  But displaying porn causes harm to others, not to mention the harm that the porn industry causes.  It's well docuмented how human trafficking and all manner of criminal activity are induced by porn.  By far the vast majority of people who commit sex crimes have a history of exposure to porn.  Heck, even Vatican II limits religious liberty to things that do not bring harm to others.

    Do I not have a right to be able to walk around in public without having to see naked people everywhere?  Oh, but if it's necessary to communicate some idea, then it should be legally protected for a woman to walk into a church completely nude, right?  Come on, man, even the most pagan societies acknowledge that free speech is not absolute and unlimited.

    So you would think it should be permissible for someone to start using graphic sɛҳuąƖ language in front of your daughter, or to show her a picture of two people copulating ... in the interests of free speech?  Even our society would classify this as criminal due to "corruption of a minor" laws.
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    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: Posting Porn is OK?
    « Reply #29 on: November 28, 2019, 06:30:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 28, 2019, 06:09:36 AM
    So what would you say about blasphemous art? Is that protected? Am I allowed to depict Our Lord in dung?
    Unfortunately, if you want the freedom to say that Allah is a false prophet, then you must allow muslims to say that Jesus was a false prophet.
    .
    Blasphemy, at least conceptually, is the same. What may be blasphemy to you may be sacred to others. Specifically to your example I would, of course, denounce it as a pointless insult as nobody (I hope) can hold sacred Our Lord in dung! Or, perhaps, worshippers of the devil could. But, in order to protect our freedom to profess the Catholic faith one must accept the freedom of devil worshippers to worship blasphemy.
    .
    My position is not even a lay, government, position. I believe in free will. God endowed devil worshipers to worship Our Lord in dung and God will judge them.
    .
    It is my duty and obligation to denounce blasphemy. But is it not my right to use violence to suppress it.
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    Quote from: Ladislaus on November 28, 2019, 06:09:36 AM
    PORN ITSELF is NOT FREE SPEECH.
    I agree. But Mark decided to use freedom to post porn, as his argument against freedom to post lies. I, repeatedly mentioned that porn is not the same as lies. But the principle is the same.
    .
    I am in favour of protecting all what is offensive to others, because it is offensive. If it were not offensive, it would not need to be protected. I protect all expressions until these cause physical (not soul) harm.
    .
    Quote from: Ladislaus on November 28, 2019, 06:09:36 AM
    What intellectual or political point is being communicated through porn? None.
    I agree. But lack of value of content does not compress the value of the principle. I defend freedom of expression not because of the political or intellectual value but becase of the value of the principle.
    .
    Quote from: Ladislaus on November 28, 2019, 06:09:36 AM
    Also, do not construe so-called "artistic freedom" with "free speech". They are not the same thing. Free speech is the right to express IDEAS and THOUGHTS.
    Here I disagree. Art is a form of expression of ideas and thoughts.

    -------------------------

    As much as I would like to continue this interesting and helpful conversation, I cannot invest more time to it as I must devote time to study. There are too many valuable comments that I would like to address and I do not want to address one in disregarding others.
    .
    I have gained valuable perspectives on which I will linger and consider and I hope that I expressed my ideas in a way that can be helpful to others to consider, if not, I am sorry for having invested time in a way that was not productive.
    .
    So much has been said that I feel that all aspects have been discussed and I feel that I can not contribute other useful comments and, so I prefer to return to it if and when my convictions concerning free speech will change.
    .
    Until then I pray that God will understand that I disregard the doctrines against free speech in good faith because I believe that we are in a state of necessity caused by modern aggression to the freedom to express and practice our religious precepts, which state of necessity induces me to fight for the freedom of expression and practice, always and in any context.
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    Tommaso
    + IHSV
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