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Author Topic: Posting Porn is OK?  (Read 2137 times)

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Offline Mark 79

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Posting Porn is OK?
« on: November 27, 2019, 09:34:57 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mark 79 on November 26, 2019, 05:03:39 PM
    It's a simple question, Ascanio, would you object to posting porn here?
    Quote from: ascanio1 on November 27, 2019, 06:11:36 AM
    I will answer but I feel that my reply will be pointless, as you will not respect the fact that you and I disagree and you will continue to try to convince me that free speech can be wrong.
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    I could not find my reply to your question because the thread (ban poche) where I posted it, was deleted.
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    I would not object to posting porn here if something specific was being addressed and the verbal description were insufficient.
    .
    I would employ the same caution as when addressing ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs. If I were describing the rape of male guests then I would not object to posting the word sodomite, here, instead of gαy, as gαy would be insufficient to properly and accurately convey the meaning.
    .
    In the end, no, I would not object to posting porn and I would leave it all to the individual and personal sensitivity of the poster. It's the fundamental principle of free speech: it does not protect the freedom to say what does not offend, it protects, specifically, the freedom to say what does offend.
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    But your true reason for asking me if I would allow porn here, is a pretext to introduce the false similitude, to which I will not concede, that pornography equates lies and/or opinions that are insulting and therefore should be banned. poche may lie and/or post offensive opinions but, still, who believes in the concept of free speech will protect poche's right to post such lies/opinions even if these offend the reader.
    .
    Mark, kindly, would you create a new thread to discuss this? It is not pertinent to visitors of the thread seeking only content regarding the laws of Moses.
    "Cafeteria Catholicism" is not Catholicism. Why pretend to seek the Truth in order to reject it?

    “Further, by divine and Catholic faith, all those things must be believed at which are contained in the written Word of God and in tradition, and those which are proposed by the church, either in a solemn pronouncement [ex cathedra extra ordinary Magisterium ], or in her ordinary and universal teaching power [a.v.,  “what has always been taught,” ordinary Magisterium ], to be believed as a divinely revealed.”  Vatican Council, Session III Dogmatic Constitution Concerning the Catholic Faith (April 24, 1870) in Denzinger, Enchiridion Symbolorum, The Sources of Catholic Dogma, §1792

    What part of "all"" don't you understand?

    A proposition condemned in Pope Pius IX's Syllabus of Errors:


    Quote
    X. ERRORS HAVING REFERENCE TO MODERN LIBERALISM

    …79. Moreover, it is false that the civil liberty of every form of worship, and the full power, given to all, of overtly and publicly manifesting any opinions whatsoever and thoughts, conduce more easily to corrupt the morals and minds of the people, and to propagate the pest of indifferentism. — Allocution “Nunquam fore,” Dec. 15, 1856.…
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Posting Porn is OK?
    « Reply #1 on: November 27, 2019, 09:56:58 AM »
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    • From Pope Pius IX's Quanta Cura:

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    …9 and that nothing is so deadly, so hastening to a fall, so exposed to all danger, (as that which exists) if, believing this alone to be sufficient for us that we receive free will at our birth, we seek nothing further from the Lord; that is, if forgetting our Creator we abjure his power that we may display our freedom.…
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Error Has No Rights
    « Reply #2 on: November 27, 2019, 11:11:56 AM »
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    • I have changed the subject title for this post because "error has no rights" is the underlying principle in several related issues, including religious liberty and freedom of speech.  I found an old Mundabor blog article https://mundabor.wordpress.com/2013/06/13/error-has-no-rights/ that gives a good explanation:  

    How, then, do we distinguish those who are right from those who are wrong? Simply by knowing what is right and what is wrong. The Church is right, the Heresies are wrong. Christianity is right, Atheism is wrong. God is right, those who oppose Him are wrong. How do I know that? Because the Church says so. And who is the Church to say so? She is the Bride of Christ.

    It’s simple, really. Right is right and wrong is wrong, and what is important is on which side one is. To say Muslims should have the right to build mosques if we want to have the right to build churches neglects the fundamental difference between a church and a mosque, Truth and Error, true God and false god.

    There is a common idea, even among Catholics, that we have to accept freedom of speech as a right to justify speaking about Christianity.  But this is an idea that presumes that Christianity is just one idea among many and equal to the others.

    There may be situations in which it is prudent to tolerate false religions and other errors, but they do not have any intrinsic rights.


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    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: Posting Porn is OK?
    « Reply #3 on: November 27, 2019, 11:22:18 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mark 79 on November 27, 2019, 09:34:57 AM
    What part of "all"" don't you understand?
    ... for example the part that refers to the doctrine of Vatican II. If it were not for freedom of speech, you would not be allowed to criticize it.
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    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Posting Porn is OK?
    « Reply #4 on: November 27, 2019, 11:48:09 AM »
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    • Quote from: ascanio1 on November 27, 2019, 11:22:18 AM
    ... for example the part that refers to the doctrine of Vatican II. If it were not for freedom of speech, you would not be allowed to criticize it.

    Methinks the 'freedom of speech' you are referring to is not exactly what you think it is.
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Posting Porn is OK?
    « Reply #5 on: November 27, 2019, 02:15:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: ascanio1 on November 27, 2019, 11:22:18 AM
    ... for example the part that refers to the doctrine of Vatican II. If it were not for freedom of speech, you would not be allowed to criticize it.
    Firstly, I made no reference to "Vatican II."
    Second, You made no reference to Vatican II in this tread.
    So, there is no "part that refers to Vatican II."
    Since the Ordinary Magisterium and Extraordinary Magisterium are infallible, I require no "freedom of speech" to promte Magisterium. What you call "Vatican II" is full of error, so must be criticized by practicing Catholics.
    You are twisting yourself in knots to resist the Catholic teaching.
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    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: Posting Porn is OK?
    « Reply #6 on: November 27, 2019, 04:33:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bellator Dei on November 27, 2019, 12:29:45 PM
    Tommaso, I'm sure that you haven't had any time to look over the Encyclicals I recommended, and I understand that it can be difficult to come to terms with some of the information being presented to you.  However, in charity, I believe you are misguided.  
    Bellator, thank you for all the time that you invest to help me and, yes, I have not had time to read through what you recommended as the list is, truly, over 100 items and, presently, catechism is my priority.
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    However, perhaps I allowed a misconception to develop.
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    I have been educated of the doctrines against free speech and I do not contest their existence but I choose to engage in free will and to not follow these doctrines because, in good faith, I belive that they are not in the best interest of the Church.
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    Just as I have been educated of the doctrines of Vatican II and I do not contest their existence but I choose to engage in free will and to not follow these doctrines because, in good faith, I belive that they are not in the best interest of the Church.
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    I am not unaware of the doctrined against free speech. I simply choose to disregard them. I hope that the misunderstanding that I might have caused is now clear: it is a concious choice, in good faith :)
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    Quote from: Mark 79 on November 27, 2019, 02:15:25 PM
    Firstly, I made no reference to "Vatican II."
    You did not. I did in my previous post. You choose to disregard some teachings I choose to disregard others.
    .
    Quote from: Mark 79 on November 27, 2019, 02:15:25 PM
    What you call "Vatican II" is full of error, so must be criticized by practicing Catholics.
    Agreed.
    .
    I will let God judge me for my choice of believing that free speech is in the best interest of the Church.


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    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: Posting Porn is OK?
    « Reply #7 on: November 27, 2019, 05:02:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bonaventure on November 27, 2019, 11:48:09 AM
    Methinks the 'freedom of speech' you are referring to is not exactly what you think it is.
    I believe that free speech is the protection of the right of any individual to express his opinions freely even if these are offensive, wrong or even plain false. Such individual will answer to God alone, and not to man for his actions.
    .
    Similarly, I belive that free will is a fundamental aspect of moral liberty because, without it, there would be no merit in staying the correct course. How one uses his free will, can be judged only by God, not by man as man answers to God alone for his choices.
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    God created man and commanded him to obey a moral law, later doctrines (including restrictions on free speech, I grant) and God promised to reward or punish man according to man's observance or violation of God's laws.
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    God will judge if present circuмstances vouch for my disregard some of His doctrines: free speech and Vatican II plus all the other sins that, undoubtedly, I commit in my human imperfection.
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Posting Porn is OK?
    « Reply #8 on: November 27, 2019, 05:14:28 PM »
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    • I am not unaware of the doctrined against free speech. I simply choose to disregard them. I hope that the misunderstanding that I might have caused is now clear: it is a concious choice, in good faith 

    *******

    Tommaso, you cannot say that you are aware of the doctrine of the faith and choose to disregatd them and at the same time be a faithful Catholic. A Catholic choses to obey all the the Church teaches.

    The dilemma of Vatican 2 is really not an issue, as Faithful Catholics with a sensus fidelium know that Vatican 2 itself contradicts the contiuous doctrine of the Church.

    As has been pointed out, from the beginning, the Church has never allowed freedom of speech. It's a long standing tradition.

    How can you say what is good for the Church with your short experience, while the Church has 2000 years to know what is good and what is bad?
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Posting Porn is OK?
    « Reply #9 on: November 27, 2019, 05:21:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: ascanio1 on November 27, 2019, 05:02:11 PM
    I believe that free speech is the protection of the right of any individual to express his opinions freely even if these are offensive, wrong or even plain false. Such individual will answer to God alone, and not to man for his actions.
    .
    Similarly, I belive that free will is a fundamental aspect of moral liberty because, without it, there would be no merit in staying the correct course. How one uses his free will, can be judged only by God, not by man as man answers to God alone for his choices.
    .
    God created man and commanded him to obey a moral law, later doctrines (including restrictions on free speech, I grant) and God promised to reward or punish man according to man's observance or violation of God's laws.
    .
    God will judge if present circuмstances vouch for my disregard some of His doctrines: free speech and Vatican II plus all the other sins that, undoubtedly, I commit in my human imperfection.

    But people do not answer to God alone for their actions.  Virtually every authority-subject relationship is one in which people answer for their actions to one in authority.  This occurs within families, within civil government, and within Church government.  You, for example, have authority over your daughter and would be failing in your duty as her father if you did not judge her moral choices and reward and punish as necessary.  Similarly, civil authorities have a duty to protect the common good by judging, rewarding and punishing actions.  Free will does not mean that we are in a state of anarchy.
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    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: Posting Porn is OK?
    « Reply #10 on: November 27, 2019, 05:25:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: Nadir on November 27, 2019, 05:14:28 PM
    Tommaso, you cannot say that you are aware of the doctrine of the faith and choose to disregatd them and at the same time be a faithful Catholic. A Catholic choses to obey all the the Church teaches.

    The dilemma of Vatican 2 is really not an issue, as Faithful Catholics with a sensus fidelium know that Vatican 2 itself contradicts the contiuous doctrine of the Church.
    Who chooses what constitutes sensus fidelium?
    .
    Quote from: Nadir on November 27, 2019, 05:14:28 PM
    How can you say what is good for the Church with your short experience, while the Church has 2000 years to know what is good and what is bad?
    I have very short experience and I lack the knowledge and scolarly studies of this community and, therefore, I recognize that I may very well err, even if always in good faith.
    .
    I belive that today free speech is best for the Church as Truth does not require censorship and, rather, censorship can cause rejection.
    .
    I appreciate the sincere charitable efforts and love that I feel from Mark, jaynek, you and others who - am certain - in good faith insist only in my interest. I may very well change my mind in future but I am very comfortable in this decision, for the moment, and I will continue to advocate for free speech.
    .
    Again, thank you for your help and prayers and, please, do not interpret my stance as something personal against mark or you as nothing could be farther from truth.
    .
    .
    Quote from: Jaynek on November 27, 2019, 05:21:36 PM
    But people do not answer to God alone for their actions. Virtually every authority-subject relationship is one in which people answer for their actions to one in authority. This occurs within families, within civil government, and within Church government.
    I agree. But, from what I learned, only the Church is against free speech, not the government. So I will have to answer to God alone.
    .
    Quote from: Jaynek on November 27, 2019, 05:21:36 PM
    Similarly, civil authorities have a duty to protect the common good by judging, rewarding and punishing actions.  Free will does not mean that we are in a state of anarchy.
    Exactly. If you do not have laws you end up in anarchy and if you do not have free speech you end up in tyranny. Laws protect from anarchy and tyranny.
    .
    And this is why the Founding Fathers of America introduced the concept of God given rights to all humanity, protected by the Constitution.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Posting Porn is OK?
    « Reply #11 on: November 27, 2019, 06:15:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: ascanio1 on November 27, 2019, 05:25:25 PM
    .
    .I agree. But, from what I learned, only the Church is against free speech, not the government. So I will have to answer to God alone.
    .Exactly. If you do not have laws you end up in anarchy and if you do not have free speech you end up in tyranny. Laws protect from anarchy and tyranny.
    .
    And this is why the Founding Fathers of America introduced the concept of God given rights to all humanity, protected by the Constitution.
    Even the government does not support unlimited free speech. One is not free to incite violence or ιnѕυrrєcтισn.  One is not free to harm the reputation of others.  Here in Canada, we even have laws against hate speech that trump its supposed right to free speech.  There are many places that supposedly have free speech where it is illegal to say that ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity is a sin, that people cannot really change their sex, or to question that Germany killed 6 million Jews during the so-called h0Ɩ0cαųst.  Free speech laws do nothing to prevent tyranny.  There are endless exceptions and loop holes and we are well on our way to Catholicism being illegal due to allegedly being being homophobic, bigoted and generally evil.  

    The Founding Fathers of America cannot be taken as moral or religious guides.  Their underlying philosophical position comes from the "Enlightenment" an error-filled anti-Catholic view.  Did you know that one of the "intolerable acts" of England by which they justified their rebellion was that England allowed Catholicism to be practiced in its colony in Canada?  The Founding Fathers have no authority to teach about what rights God has given to humanity.  The Catholic Church is the only body with that authority.  

    The Church has clearly taught that error has no rights and that there is no right to free speech.  You are using the current crisis as an excuse to ignore teachings from a time when there was no reason to question Church doctrines.  Everyone here has a right to judge that your thinking on this is wrong because it is objectively wrong according to Church teaching.  It is not something for God alone to judge.  
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Posting Porn is OK?
    « Reply #12 on: November 27, 2019, 06:26:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: ascanio1 on November 27, 2019, 05:25:25 PM
    Who chooses what constitutes sensus fidelium?

    When we receive the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation the Holy Spirit enters into us, and if we are faithful to prayer and the practice of the Faith we have a sense of right and wrong that is not given to those who are not Baptised/Confirmed and do not practice the faith. A sensus fidelum is a marvellous gift direct from the Blessed Trinity.

    *****
    .... I recognize that I may very well err, even if always in good faith.
    .
    I belive that today free speech is best for the Church as Truth does not require censorship and, rather, censorship can cause rejection.

    When we receive the great gift of Faith, we do not negotiate which doctrines we agree with and which we don't agree with. When there is a difference between what the Church (God) teaches and what you believe, you can be absolutely sure that you are wrong. Then you acknowledge humbly that God knows best. That is a path which is perfectly safe, but you  say "I may very well err, even if always in good faith" when you have been given the knowledge required to know the church teaching, and such an path is a very dangerous one. Beware of who wants to stop you and your family from attaining eternal salvation. 


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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Posting Porn is OK?
    « Reply #13 on: November 27, 2019, 09:14:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: ascanio1 on November 27, 2019, 04:33:35 PM
    …You choose to disregard some teachings I choose to disregard others.…

    The Catholic Faith as it has been infallibly transmitted for two millennia is knowable.

    Hence it is knowable that "Vatican 2" is a gross departure from what has been infallibly transmitted for two millennia.

    We Catholics are not merely free, but duty-bound to reject novelties.

    You are rejecting a knowable tenet of the Faith (error has no rights). I am rejecting novelties (e.g., Dual Covenant Heresy) that are diametric opposites of what has been infallibly transmitted for two millennia. "Sodomy is a sin that cries to Heaven for vengeance" is the opposite of "Who am I to judge?" "The Mosaic Covenant has been replaced" is the diametric opposite of "The 'Jews' still have the Mosaic Covenant." It is knowable which of those propositions is Catholic and which is Satanic.

    Don't fall into Meg-ism, conflating dissimilar concepts (in her case conflating sententia communis with proposito haeretica; in your case conflating fides ecclesiastica dogma and proposito haeretica novelty as similar categories).
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Posting Porn is OK?
    « Reply #14 on: November 27, 2019, 09:30:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: ascanio1 on November 27, 2019, 05:25:25 PM
    Who chooses what constitutes sensus fidelium?
    As I said, the Faith is knowable.
    The knowable Faith develops your sensus fidelium.
    Since you freely stipulated your poor formation, the rational step is to suspend your opinions and review each against the knowable Faith.  Pay special attention to the tenets of the Faith that most make you recoil!  Those require the most and earliest work. If you shirk or delay, there is high probability that those will be the sticking points that take you down.
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