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Author Topic: Pope Francis  (Read 18646 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Pope Francis
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2024, 04:13:41 PM »
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  • Siri was not a "liberal".  He called V2 the "greatest disaster in Church history".  He was friends with Archbishop Lefebvre and part of the Coetus Internationalis Patrum, and was always characterized by biographers as a "staunch conservative".  So he was hardly a "liberal".  Whatever errors he may have made in judgment were done in his capacity as a private person and not in exercising his office (which he did not do).  No one has yet demonstrated any manifest heresy that Siri adhered to that would have rendered him a non-Catholic and therefore to have vacated the office ... because no such example exists.  He could even have been mistaken in thinking that he resigned, not considering the fact that the resignation was illegal due to it having been under grave duress.  Mere acquiescence to the NO "hierarchy" does not ipso facto make someone a heretic.

    Just imagine for a second that you're Siri.  You are elected pope, accept, take the name Gregory XVII.  Then a group of Cardinals come by hurling threats, perhaps it's to kill off all the bishops and priests behind the Iron curtain, perhaps it's to kill your entire extended family, perhaps to nuke the Vatican, and you give in, "Fine, I'll resign.  Pick someone else."  From your entirely subjective perspective, you resigned.  But viewed objectively, by a third party, the resignation was not free but made under grave duress, therefore making it invalid/illegitimate.

    Except it doesn't have to be heresy, since schism separates one from the Catholic Church.


    Quote
    Pius XII, Mystici Corporis

    For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy. 

    I thought you were of the opinion that the Conciliar Church was a schismatic sect. If it is, Siri was objectively in manifest, open schism, and separated from the Church. 



    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope Francis
    « Reply #31 on: March 03, 2024, 04:30:11 PM »
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  • Except it doesn't have to be heresy, since schism separates one from the Catholic Church.

    I thought you were of the opinion that the Conciliar Church was a schismatic sect. If it is, Siri was objectively in manifest, open schism, and separated from the Church.

    I'm not sure where you got this idea from.  There are many people in the Conciliar Church who are in material error only, belonging to it because they believe it to be the Catholic Church ... similar to how St. Vincent Ferrer was subject to an Antipope, considering him to be the true pope.  Not sure where you got this notion that I hold that all those who belong to the Conciiliar Church are thereby formal schismatics.  I've long battled the dogmatic sedevacantists against this very thing.  Many people fail to understand the difference between formal and material error (whether heresy or schism).


    Offline Soubirous

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    Re: Pope Francis
    « Reply #32 on: March 03, 2024, 04:42:13 PM »
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  • Shoot, this went off the rails

    Welcome, newbie.
    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Pope Francis
    « Reply #33 on: March 03, 2024, 04:51:48 PM »
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  • There are many people in the Conciliar Church who are in material error only, belonging to it because they believe it to be the Catholic Church ...

    Correct.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Pope Francis
    « Reply #34 on: March 03, 2024, 05:12:44 PM »
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  • This is not factually accurate.

    The Friday discipline continues ag least on paper in the Conciliar Church. However, in most jurisdictions the obligation only binds under pain of sin during Lent.

    An example where Friday abstinence still obliges year-round under pain of sin would be England & Wales. Yet, if one crosses into Scotland the obligation under pain of sin is only during Lent.

    Plenty exists about which we can criticise the Coniliar Church. We do not need to exaggerate which only makes us look foolish.

    Well isn’t it accurate for the United States, where Stubborn lives since there is no penalty for non adherence? 

    No, it is hardly an exaggeration. Let’s not be foolish and make excuses for NO disciplines that carry no repercussions for their transgressions. What it actually amounts to really is just a suggestion that is generally ignored.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline mcollier

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    Re: Pope Francis
    « Reply #35 on: March 03, 2024, 08:08:29 PM »
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  • Siri was not a "liberal".  He called V2 the "greatest disaster in Church history".  He was friends with Archbishop Lefebvre and part of the Coetus Internationalis Patrum, and was always characterized by biographers as a "staunch conservative".  So he was hardly a "liberal".  Whatever errors he may have made in judgment were done in his capacity as a private person and not in exercising his office (which he did not do).  No one has yet demonstrated any manifest heresy that Siri adhered to that would have rendered him a non-Catholic and therefore to have vacated the office ... because no such example exists.  He could even have been mistaken in thinking that he resigned, not considering the fact that the resignation was illegal due to it having been under grave duress.  Mere acquiescence to the NO "hierarchy" does not ipso facto make someone a heretic.

    Just imagine for a second that you're Siri.  You are elected pope, accept, take the name Gregory XVII.  Then a group of Cardinals come by hurling threats, perhaps it's to kill off all the bishops and priests behind the Iron curtain, perhaps it's to kill your entire extended family, perhaps to nuke the Vatican, and you give in, "Fine, I'll resign.  Pick someone else."  From your entirely subjective perspective, you resigned.  But viewed objectively, by a third party, the resignation was not free but made under grave duress, therefore making it invalid/illegitimate.
    Thank you. 

    I will need to learn more about Cardinal Siri.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope Francis
    « Reply #36 on: March 04, 2024, 06:54:06 AM »
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  • Thank you.

    I will need to learn more about Cardinal Siri.

    I've been looking into this for years, and I'm convinced that this is the key to what happened to the Church.

    Gary Giuffre does a great job laying it all out in these interviews.

    https://whitesmoke1958.com/articles-interviews-mr-gary-giuffre/

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Pope Francis
    « Reply #37 on: March 04, 2024, 08:18:31 AM »
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  • I've been looking into this for years, and I'm convinced that this is the key to what happened to the Church.

    Gary Giuffre does a great job laying it all out in these interviews.

    https://whitesmoke1958.com/articles-interviews-mr-gary-giuffre/



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope Francis
    « Reply #38 on: March 04, 2024, 08:41:50 AM »
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  • BS ... again, from Fr. Kramer (or Mr. Kramer ... he needs to get his ordination taken care of, and I'm sure there are bishops out there who'd be happy to oblige him, including +Vigano).  Pius XII clearly taught that someone becomes Pope the instant he accepts the election.  Once he accepts, he's the Pope, and this cannot be undone by some "universal un-acceptance".  Canon Law also clearly states that resignation under grave duress is invalid.  Talk about ignorance of Canon Law, and the teaching of Pius XII.  Instead of blovating, perhaps Mr. Kramer could cite the specific Canon Law that trumps thet teaching of Pius XII that a man becomes pope the instant he accepts.  Not a single citation of the purported Canon Law, just bloviation.

    Mr. Kramer has also never addressed the problem that the manifest heresy he accused Bergoglio of holding (denying the Council of Florence) was also taught by both Ratzinger and Wojtyla (Wojtyla in fact invented it).

    If Pius XII taught that a man becomes Pope the instant he accepts, then in claiming that the Pope could be deposed by universal un-acceptance Kramer would be guilty of heresy by his own standards, where he holds that since Vatican I it's heresy to assert that a Pope can be deposed by anyone (even ministerially).

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope Francis
    « Reply #39 on: March 04, 2024, 08:52:09 AM »
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  • MAJOR:  a man elected to the papacy becomes pope the instant he accepts (teaching of Pius XII)
    MINOR:  Canon Law states that a resignation under duress is invalid.
    MINOR:  Once someone is the legitimate Pope (cf. MAJOR), there's no mechanism by which he can be deposed (if not ipso facto guilty of heresy).  ... According to Father Kramer, this is now de fide.
    CONCLUSION:  If Siri accepted and became Pope, and was forced to "resign" under duress, then Cardinal Siri was in fact the legitimate Pope until his death in 1989.

    So this becomes simply a matter of establishing the fact of whether Siri accepted.  There's a ton of circuмstantial evidence pointing to exactly that having happened, though no smoking gun (pun intended) as of yet.

    And this Thesis would explain everything.  SVs rely upon the fact that Roncalli and Montini were manifest heretics prior to their election.  Were they?  Roncalli was suspect of Modernism.  I've never seen anything from Montini before his election to demonstrate/prove that he was a manifest heretic prior to his election.  SVs like Father Cekada keep asserting these claims, but I haven't seen a shred of evidence to back it up.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope Francis
    « Reply #40 on: March 04, 2024, 09:14:11 AM »
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  • Pope Pius XII Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis, 1945:
    Quote
    100. Post electionem canonice factam, ab ultimo Cardinali Diacono accitis in aulam Conclavis S. Collegii Secretario, Praefecto Apostolicarum Caeremoniarum atque duobus Caeremoniarum Magistris, consensus electi per Cardinalem Decanum nomine totius S. Collegii his verbis: Acceptasne electionem de te canonice factam in Summum Pontificem? requiratur.

    101. Hoc consensu praestito intra terminum, quatenus opus sit, prudenti arbitrio Cardinalium per maiorem votorum numerum determinandum, illico electus est verus Papa, atque actu plenam absolutamque iurisdictionem supra totum orbem acquirit et exercere potest.

    So, immediately upon his acceptance of the election, the "elected is true Pope, and acquires in act the full and absolute jurisdiction over the entire world and can exercise it".

    Perhaps Father Kramer could explain what mechanism of Canon Law would strip this Pope of this authority "in act", which he obtains and can begin exercising immediately upon his acceptance?

    Note well that it does not say he becomes Pope and receives full and absolute jurisdiction as soon as he's publicly announced as Pope or makes it "known" somehow.  In fact, section 102 goes into the next step, which is where he takes on his papal name ... all of which happens prior to when he's publicly proclaimed as pope.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pope Francis
    « Reply #41 on: March 04, 2024, 09:14:52 AM »
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  • Siri theory :facepalm:
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope Francis
    « Reply #42 on: March 04, 2024, 09:18:12 AM »
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  • Siri theory :facepalm:

    Typical rational rebuttal that we've come to expect from you.  We know that you'd much rather attribute corruption of Magisterium and Public Worship to the Holy Catholic Church than entertain the possibility that your pals Roncalli, Montini, et al. weren't legitimate popes.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pope Francis
    « Reply #43 on: March 04, 2024, 09:35:13 AM »
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  • Typical rational rebuttal that we've come to expect from you.  We know that you'd much rather attribute corruption of Magisterium and Public Worship to the Holy Catholic Church than entertain the possibility that your pals Roncalli, Montini, et al. weren't legitimate popes.
    Just because your friends, Pope Paul VI and Pope John XXIII were actual popes that were heretics is too much for you to bear, there is no need for you invent this so called theory that a different NO Cardinal named Siri was the real pope. Pitiful actually. :facepalm:
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope Francis
    « Reply #44 on: March 04, 2024, 11:18:43 AM »
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  • Just because your friends, Pope Paul VI and Pope John XXIII were actual popes that were heretics is too much for you to bear, there is no need for you invent this so called theory that a different NO Cardinal named Siri was the real pope. Pitiful actually. :facepalm:

    Nobody simply invented it.  There's a ton of corroborating evidence.  Someway, somehow they were not legitimate popes, since the Holy Ghost protects the Church and the Papacy from corrupting the Magisterium and the Mass ... but since you don't believe that but prefer your heretical views to that, you're not even going to look into it.