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Author Topic: Pope Francis  (Read 18647 times)

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Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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Re: Pope Francis
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2024, 11:55:16 AM »
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  • "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff" - to which the sedes add - "unless you don't believe he's the pope."  Whew! Good thing they add this disclaimer.

    By adding this disclaimer sedes do not refuse subjection to the pope.  Ergo, they've made themselves not outside the Church and there can be salvation for sedes - unless they remove their disclaimer.

    Sedes don't remove the pope from the papacy.  His numerous public offenses do that for us whenever he flies around the world or gives an interview in a white cassock spewing his endless lunacies.  

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope Francis
    « Reply #16 on: March 02, 2024, 12:16:12 PM »
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  • Ok, well, you are afraid to answer the question. Noted. Move on.

    Answer my question first, buddy.  How do you explain the contradiction of you being a rigorous upholder of EENS, including the dogmatic definition that there's no salvation outside without subjection to the Supreme Pontiff, you believe that Jorge is the Supreme Pontiff, and yet you refuse subjection to him?

    it's been nothing but a bunch of rants and ad hominem attacks from you.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope Francis
    « Reply #17 on: March 02, 2024, 12:20:34 PM »
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  • "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff" - to which the sedes add - "unless you don't believe he's the pope."  Whew! Good thing they add this disclaimer.

    By adding this disclaimer sedes do not refuse subjection to the pope.  Ergo, they've made themselves not outside the Church and there can be salvation for sedes - unless they remove their disclaimer.

    That's actually correct, bonehead, even if you're too dense to understand it.  Canon Lawyers have been repeatedly cited stating that one is not to be considered a schismatic if they refuse submission based upon well-founded doubts about the legitimacy of an alleged pope.  Similarly, St. Vincent Ferrer was subject to the wrong pope, i.e. not subject to the pope, because he was mistaken regarding the identity of the actual pope.  Those things are referred to as material error.  But when you claim that someone is certainly the pope, and yet refuse subjection to him anyway, you are in a state of formal error, and are formally withholding subjetion to the Supreme Pontiff, putting you outside the Catholic Church.  In other words, IF the SVs are wrong (we're not), then we're in material error, and remain formally subject to the Supreme Pontiff (while erring about his true identity).  You on the other hand are in formal error, declaring that it's permissible in principle to withhold subjection.  But I might as well be writing Chinese in using terms like formal and material with you.  This is for the understanding on third parties who might be reading this thread.

    You can't answer the contradiction, so you throw a trantrum by unleashing a series of ad hominems to avoid addressing it.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pope Francis
    « Reply #18 on: March 02, 2024, 02:18:28 PM »
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  • Answer my question first, buddy.  How do you explain the contradiction of you being a rigorous upholder of EENS, including the dogmatic definition that there's no salvation outside without subjection to the Supreme Pontiff, you believe that Jorge is the Supreme Pontiff, and yet you refuse subjection to him?
    My answer to you is my signature. You believe the bishops are infallible when they teach anything in unison with the pope, well, St. Peter (first pope) and the Apostles (first bishops) all teach in unison that "We ought to obey God, rather than men." The pope is a man, and if he ever commands something of us that we can do without offending God, then we must obey. Simple.

    Quote
    it's been nothing but a bunch of rants and ad hominem attacks from you.
     :facepalm: You sound like you're a democrat, falsely accusing others of the very thing you are guilty of.

    QUESTION:
    So faithful Catholics had a pope(s) who wanted to bind us to heresy but we did not listen to him. What crime or sin are we guilty of?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pope Francis
    « Reply #19 on: March 02, 2024, 02:24:50 PM »
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  • That's actually correct, bonehead, even if you're too dense to understand it.  Canon Lawyers have been repeatedly cited stating that one is not to be considered a schismatic if they refuse submission based upon well-founded doubts about the legitimacy of an alleged pope.  Similarly, St. Vincent Ferrer was subject to the wrong pope, i.e. not subject to the pope, because he was mistaken regarding the identity of the actual pope.  Those things are referred to as material error.  But when you claim that someone is certainly the pope, and yet refuse subjection to him anyway, you are in a state of formal error, and are formally withholding subjetion to the Supreme Pontiff, putting you outside the Catholic Church.  In other words, IF the SVs are wrong (we're not), then we're in material error, and remain formally subject to the Supreme Pontiff (while erring about his true identity).  You on the other hand are in formal error, declaring that it's permissible in principle to withhold subjection.  But I might as well be writing Chinese in using terms like formal and material with you.  This is for the understanding on third parties who might be reading this thread.

    You can't answer the contradiction, so you throw a trantrum by unleashing a series of ad hominems to avoid addressing it.
    You place way, way to high a value on your own sede opinion. Justify it to the very cosmos all you want, but it ain't nothin' but an opinion.

    The thing you say is "actually correct", actually renders the dogma altogether meaningless, a waste of the pope's time to declare it. :facepalm:

    How many posts will you make without answering the question?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pope Francis
    « Reply #20 on: March 02, 2024, 02:27:01 PM »
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  • Sedes don't remove the pope from the papacy.  His numerous public offenses do that for us whenever he flies around the world or gives an interview in a white cassock spewing his endless lunacies.
    All you're admitting is that as long as sedes disbelieve the pope is the pope, they may continue to ignore the dogma as if it was never declared.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline St Giles

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    Re: Pope Francis
    « Reply #21 on: March 02, 2024, 02:28:06 PM »
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  • That's actually correct, bonehead, even if you're too dense to understand it.  

    You can't answer the contradiction, so you throw a trantrum by unleashing a series of ad hominems to avoid addressing it.

    That's actually correct, bonehead, even if you're too dense to understand it.  
    ::)
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"

    Offline Nighthawk

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    Re: Pope Francis
    « Reply #22 on: March 02, 2024, 08:58:58 PM »
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  • Shoot, this went off the rails


    Offline mcollier

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    Re: Pope Francis
    « Reply #23 on: March 03, 2024, 05:31:03 AM »
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  • Correction, the last Pope died on May 2, 1989.
    It’s an interesting theory. But the thing I don’t understand is that wasn’t Cardinal Siri a liberal in his later years that said the Novus Ordo Mass and recognized the other Conciliar papal claimants? Wouldn’t he be part of the same group of criminals that have hijacked the institution of the Church and as a consequence would have lost any formal authority?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Pope Francis
    « Reply #24 on: March 03, 2024, 07:39:46 AM »
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  • QUESTION:
    So faithful Catholics had a pope(s) who wanted to bind us to heresy but we did not listen to him. What crime or sin are we guilty of?

    Stubborn, can you give me an example of anything that you DO listen to Bergoglio on which is not heretical?

    For instance, in the NO church (apparently your church) Bergoglio “canonized” the heretic Montini. This is not necessarily heretical. Why don’t you (maybe you do?) follow your pope’s directive and pray to Montini for his intercession?

    Also, your church allows eating meat on Fridays (except, supposedly, during Lent). Would you ever have the audacity to council any Catholic to not follow your church’s rules with regard to fasting or abstinence? (BTW, this also has nothing to do with heresy)

    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Pope Francis
    « Reply #25 on: March 03, 2024, 11:49:51 AM »
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  • Also, your church allows eating meat on Fridays (except, supposedly, during Lent).
    This is not factually accurate.

    The Friday discipline continues ag least on paper in the Conciliar Church. However, in most jurisdictions the obligation only binds under pain of sin during Lent.

    An example where Friday abstinence still obliges year-round under pain of sin would be England & Wales. Yet, if one crosses into Scotland the obligation under pain of sin is only during Lent.

    Plenty exists about which we can criticise the Coniliar Church. We do not need to exaggerate which only makes us look foolish.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope Francis
    « Reply #26 on: March 03, 2024, 12:05:22 PM »
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  • It’s an interesting theory. But the thing I don’t understand is that wasn’t Cardinal Siri a liberal in his later years that said the Novus Ordo Mass and recognized the other Conciliar papal claimants? Wouldn’t he be part of the same group of criminals that have hijacked the institution of the Church and as a consequence would have lost any formal authority?

    Siri was not a "liberal".  He called V2 the "greatest disaster in Church history".  He was friends with Archbishop Lefebvre and part of the Coetus Internationalis Patrum, and was always characterized by biographers as a "staunch conservative".  So he was hardly a "liberal".  Whatever errors he may have made in judgment were done in his capacity as a private person and not in exercising his office (which he did not do).  No one has yet demonstrated any manifest heresy that Siri adhered to that would have rendered him a non-Catholic and therefore to have vacated the office ... because no such example exists.  He could even have been mistaken in thinking that he resigned, not considering the fact that the resignation was illegal due to it having been under grave duress.  Mere acquiescence to the NO "hierarchy" does not ipso facto make someone a heretic.

    Just imagine for a second that you're Siri.  You are elected pope, accept, take the name Gregory XVII.  Then a group of Cardinals come by hurling threats, perhaps it's to kill off all the bishops and priests behind the Iron curtain, perhaps it's to kill your entire extended family, perhaps to nuke the Vatican, and you give in, "Fine, I'll resign.  Pick someone else."  From your entirely subjective perspective, you resigned.  But viewed objectively, by a third party, the resignation was not free but made under grave duress, therefore making it invalid/illegitimate.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pope Francis
    « Reply #27 on: March 03, 2024, 03:38:06 PM »
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  • Quote
    Stubborn, can you give me an example of anything that you DO listen to Bergoglio on which is not heretical?

    For instance, in the NO church (apparently your church) Bergoglio “canonized” the heretic Montini. This is not necessarily heretical. Why don’t you (maybe you do?) follow your pope’s directive and pray to Montini for his intercession?

    Also, your church allows eating meat on Fridays (except, supposedly, during Lent). Would you ever have the audacity to council any Catholic to not follow your church’s rules with regard to fasting or abstinence? (BTW, this also has nothing to do with heresy)
    Why can't any of you sedes just answer the question? Oops, there's another question that will be ignored and go unanswered. Par for the course.

     I have very a sketchy memory of the NOM when it was first perpetrated because I was raised trad, I learned my Latin responses and was serving the TLM in basements by the time I was 8 or 9 years old (1968-69), here we are 55 years later I still serve the same TLM whenever needed. And you??


    The NO Church is not my church  - as if you didn't know. Do I say the NO is your Church because both you and the pope believe he is infallible when he isn't? - Except he actually does believe it whereas you use it as an excuse for sedeism.  But whatever you do, maintain the sede narrative at all costs, steer the whole issue away from the question and make it all about anything else.:facepalm:

     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope Francis
    « Reply #28 on: March 03, 2024, 03:44:27 PM »
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  • Why can't any of you sedes just answer the question?

    After you answer the question posed to you (first)?  How do you reconcile the fact that you must subject to the Supreme Pontiff to be in the Church and to be saved, whereas you refuse subjection to the man you claim is the Supreme Pontiff?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pope Francis
    « Reply #29 on: March 03, 2024, 04:03:26 PM »
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  • After you answer the question posed to you (first)?  How do you reconcile the fact that you must subject to the Supreme Pontiff to be in the Church and to be saved, whereas you refuse subjection to the man you claim is the Supreme Pontiff?
    I already answered you, do you read at all or just post?

    My answer to you is my signature. You believe the bishops are infallible when they teach anything in unison with the pope, well, St. Peter (first pope) and the Apostles (first bishops) all teach in unison that "We ought to obey God, rather than men." The pope is a man, and if he ever commands something of us that we can do without offending God, then we must obey. Simple.
     

    QUESTION:
    So faithful Catholics had a pope(s) who wanted to bind us to heresy but we did not listen to him. What crime or sin are we guilty of?

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse