Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Matthew on May 15, 2014, 12:06:03 PM
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The Admin of Suscipe Domine has really opened a can of worms with this one.
(Someone tried posting this in the Anon subforum, but that subforum doesn't allow posting images or links.)
I think we have an example here of mixing up several concepts.
I don't see how poor people are automatically dirty, slovenly, or "white trash".
And what's wrong with an Irish mentality? At least Ireland was a completely Catholic country, which exported priests and missionaries around the world to spread the Faith, whereas the USA was always Protestant or Masonic at best.
The Irish also had a Catholic culture which was down-to-earth (rather than snooty and stuck-up), and successfully passed the Faith down for generations.
The American Trad Catholic culture today -- how successful will it be? The jury is still out. As a matter of fact, it might turn out to be a dismal failure. We should have more respect for Catholic cultures which have proven themselves by SUCCESSFULLY PASSING DOWN THE FAITH FOR XX GENERATIONS. Who are we to critique?
He also implies that they don't care for their belongings -- which, ironically, implies that they don't possess the Spirit of Poverty even though they live in poverty.
And I certainly don't see how a Traditional Catholic can "dislike all poor people".
The Holy Family wasn't rich or middle-class.
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Mr. Admin of Suscipe Domine (Kaesekopf, or "Cheese head") also seems to have something against a rural way of life and/or large families.
I'm here to tell you -- you're going to have a certain amount of clutter or "redneck ambiance" if you have some acreage, a large family, and still have to work for a living.
Manicured lawns of grass (with nothing going on) are NOT traditional or "objectively good". In fact, I think they're quite wasteful. The first lawn was created at (wait for it...) the Taj Mahal! The reason middle-class Americans and Brits psychologically want to have lawns today, is because hundreds of years ago a lawn was a status symbol. It said, "I have so much land, I can afford to waste some of it".
I'll admit I'm a recovering "tidiness addict". I do have enough German in me that I like things tidy and clean, but nevertheless my land SELDOM looks ready for surprise guests. I don't leave garbage in my yard, but I have a lot of projects going on, things that are useful and need to be stored, etc.
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Mr. Admin of Suscipe Domine (Kaesekopf, or "Cheese head") also seems to have something against a rural way of life and/or large families.
I don't know much about the forum SD, but if he has something against large families, why is he a traditional Catholic? Is he one of those NFP trads?
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Mr. Admin of Suscipe Domine (Kaesekopf, or "Cheese head") also seems to have something against a rural way of life and/or large families.
I don't know much about the forum SD, but if he has something against large families, why is he a traditional Catholic? Is he one of those NFP trads?
Let me clarify -- I was drawing a conclusion there. That's not something he said outright.
HOWEVER, it really does follow!
The main reason I jumped to that conclusion is because he said he dislikes ALL poor people. And how many Trads with large families are "well off" or even "middle class"?
He also looks down on those whose "appearance and belongings" aren't up to snuff with his standards.
Generally speaking if you live a rural lifestyle (have acreage) AND have a large family, you won't be able to keep everything perfect as far as appearances. A man only has so many hours in a day.
So either he advocates living in the city, or not having so many children. I'm not sure which.
The only way to micro-manage your children (middle-class America style) is to have a middle-class American number of children: 2 or 3.
If you have a large family, you're going to go to garage sales, wear cheaper and used clothing, etc. and that's what he has a problem with.
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He said he dislikes ALL poor people. And how many Trads with large families are "well off" or even "middle class"?
What kind of charity is that! Poor people are 5/6th of the world at least. I am glad I am not a member of that forum.
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I stopped posting at SD once I realized that it's FishKill 2.0 - and it smells just as bad.
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Dislike all poor people? Yikes.
I'm not hungry and without a roof over my head, but I've definately chose a life where I am 99% certain I won't have much money... Ever. My husband to be works manual labor for a wage, then comes home and does manual labor. Gardening, building, fixing the foundation on his house, chopping wood. Basically everything that middle class folks pay to have done because it makes them sweat or they don't have time to do it. He loves it, I love it, and I'll be pleased to work alongside him in that lifestyle until death do us part. It's satisfying. I go to bed every night with a tired body and a happy heart.
I remember when I converted I noticed how many trad women went about in denim skirts that I didn't find appealing to the eye. Back in the day when I frequented FE, I do believe these denim wearing women were referred to as "frumpy". Probably on SD as well. I don't know, I don't read either one anymore. Anyway, it occurred to me the other day that I crossed into the "frumpy" fashion when I looked down at my dirty denim skirt that I wear in the garden. It reaches my ankles, has very thick material, and it even has an elastic waistband. *gasp* It's my favourite skirt to wear because it has thick and durable material that I can work in without having to fuss over getting it ripped or stained, faded, wrinkled, etc. it's my fiancée favorite skirt too. He mentioned that to me the other day. I wonder if some uppity trads would thumb their nose up at me if they saw me in it. Or call me Amish, haha. If some would deem me poor, frumpy or slovenly and dislike me for it, so be it I suppose.
They probably wouldn't like the big manure pile sitting in my backyard for compost. Or the big pile of sticks and limbs we're going to use to make garden structures out of. They may be turned off too by the 2 large tanks i have for collecting rainwater for house and garden use. I wonder if all of that is considered white trash?
Despite all of that, I do manage to clean up nice when I go out in public, and especially for Mass. I keep the yard mowed adequately and my piles of this and that are landscaped creatively to where you would have to walk up to examine it in order to identify it as a manure pile or water holding tank.
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How appropriate that two titles down on the main page is poche's post on St Isidore the Farmer. :)
SD has been out of sight out of mind for many months and I just thought of them the other day, wondering how they are doing. Too bad this is the first I hear. I hope there are wiser voices to confront and correct this kind of ignorance.
jen I loved your post. Every word is sheer, unapologetic simplicity. I love simplicity, I always have and I beg God every day that I always will.
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I have a lawn because it is a useful outside play area, like a self repairing carpet or soft play mat.
Daughter does cartwheels and other gynnastic moves, son plays soccer, we all play badminton, baby crawls around it. It gets well used. In the evening after school it gets used for athletic drills, plyometic hurdles and of late weightlifting.
Where else would children play in those gaps in the day when they need to be playing? They cannot play racket sports or build dens in rows of cabbages or turnips.
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The beauty of Catholicism is that it is equally appealing to the rich as well the poor, to the ignorant as well as the intellectual, to the artist as well as to the lawyer. Christ Lord has a way to penetrate the hearts of all men and women, regardless of social status.
Not everyone is born to be a farmer, just as not everyone is born a noble. There is nothing wrong with refinement or even luxury as long as there is not sin involved. Let's remember we have kings and princesses who are saints. Even Christ Himself although poor, was of royal blood.
The modern views on poverty or rebellion towards what is grand and beautiful can be easily misguided and become unhealthy egalitarianism, one of the main reasons for the "miserablist" Church of modern age. Think for example, Pope Francis apparent despisal for everything that is sacred and regal, wanting to appear a common man, therefore appealing to the vulnerable masses that have been brainwashed with communist ideals and sentimentalism, and which rebels to anything that resembles tradition, for example a hierarchical order. All in the name of equality and sentimentalism. It is actually Communism in disguise and begun with the ideas of the French Revolution and the fall of the monarchies..
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The beauty of Catholicism is that it is equally appealing to the rich as well the poor, to the ignorant as well as the intellectual, to the artist as well as to the lawyer. Christ Lord has a way to penetrate the hearts of all men and women, regardless of social status.
Not everyone is born to be a farmer, just as not everyone is born a noble. There is nothing wrong with refinement or even luxury as long as there is not sin involved. Let's remember we have kings and princesses who are saints. Even Christ Himself although poor, was of royal blood.
The modern views on poverty or rebellion towards what is grand and beautiful can be easily misguided and become unhealthy egalitarianism, one of the main reasons for the "miserablist" Church of modern age. Think for example, Pope Francis apparent despisal for everything that is sacred and regal, wanting to appear a common man, therefore appealing to the vulnerable masses that have been brainwashed with communist ideals and sentimentalism, and which rebels to anything that resembles tradition, for example a hierarchical order. All in the name of equality and sentimentalism. It is actually Communism in disguise and begun with the ideas of the French Revolution and the fall of the monarchies..
I completely agree with you and have often stated that both sides need each other and ought to appreciate each other. However in a thread that references someone stating they dislike all poor people (based on their looks to boot!), I think it's normal that most responses will be in defense of the poor and the hidden beauty in their lives.
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He later said that he meant he dislikes the lazy poor of all races.
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He later said that he meant he dislikes the lazy poor of all races.
What about lazy wealthy?
Not everyone with money earned it from their own hard work.
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:dancing-banana:
The laziest person I know has never worked a day in her life. She inherited a fortune and is a miserable complainer and troublemaker. True, some poor are also lazy and grumblers. Wealth or lack thereof has little to do with laziness or being uncleanly. One can live in a tent and manage to keep yourself and your clothing reasonably clean. I know! I've done it! I even interviewed and was hired for a paraprofessional position while unofficially homeless, living in a tent in the woods. I'm sure my employers would have been very surprised to know I bathed in a river before the interview and continued doing so for two months into the job until I earned enough money to rent a room!
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I think poor people deserve sympathy (within reason and based on a national and racial level) but I also think that sometimes those who are "poor" use the sympathy card too much, especially since because of welfare the poor these days can still buy TVs and X-Boxes. That's not "poor."
Your original defintion of "white trash" is someone who "shacks up" so other than that, being a poor white is not "white trash."
As for sloven, usually it refers to sloven dress or manners, which unfortunately is all too common these days, and I mean from all "sections of life" especially Hollywood.
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He later said that he meant he dislikes the lazy poor of all races.
I'm always amused when someone makes a stupid categorical statement and then adds a few categories so as to not offend those who were obviously offended by the first all encompassing statement.
So "I dislike all poor white people" is code for "I dislike all lazy people regardless of race." lol.
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Mr. Admin of Suscipe Domine (Kaesekopf, or "Cheese head") also seems to have something against a rural way of life and/or large families.
I don't know much about the forum SD, but if he has something against large families, why is he a traditional Catholic? Is he one of those NFP trads?
Kaesk of SD is not against rural life or big families. He is not a supporter of NFP.
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He later said that he meant he dislikes the lazy poor of all races.
What about lazy wealthy?
Not everyone with money earned it from their own hard work.
As per Mith, probably he just meant he dislikes lazy people of all colours, genders, and classes. And if you think of any other ways his comments might be construed as offensive or misbalanced, he didn't mean those either.
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The main reason I jumped to that conclusion is because he said he dislikes ALL poor people. And how many Trads with large families are "well off" or even "middle class"?
He hasn't figured out yet that he could be one of those "poor people" tomorrow.
It's something it seems he was never taught when he was growing up, that whenever he sees anyone less fortunate than himself, he should understand it could have just as easily have been him.
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In my experience he's not against large families or rural life at all. He's against the nutty notion that we need to become Amish 2.0 by withdrawing ourselves from society (and necessarily its benefits, eg. education, a well-paying job), wearing puritan clothing, and having puritan standards of enjoyment and leisure time.
I'd agree with him.