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Author Topic: Polish FSSPX priest arrested in connection with covid sanitary restrictions  (Read 2597 times)

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Offline andy

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Re: Polish FSSPX priest arrested in connection with covid sanitary restrictions
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2022, 02:52:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on January 17, 2022, 02:48:46 PM
    So the ends justify the means?
    There is that double effect principle ...
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Polish FSSPX priest arrested in connection with covid sanitary restrictions
    « Reply #16 on: January 17, 2022, 02:53:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: andy on January 17, 2022, 02:49:33 PM
    It could have been a turn's state evidence where a nurse started talking. Or a setup.

    You are ignoring the problem is scandal: 

    A fake covid pass conveys complicity,  Catholics will see the priest travelling freely, know it could only because he took the abortion shot, and say to themselves, "If he can take it, so can I."

    That problem can't be sidestepped. 
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Polish FSSPX priest arrested in connection with covid sanitary restrictions
    « Reply #17 on: January 17, 2022, 02:54:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: andy on January 17, 2022, 02:49:33 PM
    It could have been a turn's state evidence where a nurse started talking. Or a setup.
    This is possible but it seems unlikely. Most people who administer vaccine shots are not undercover police officers working for whatever government agency would prosecute this, which I don't even know what it would be. Your first theory is slightly more probable but not by much, that maybe the nurse was faking everyone and got caught somehow (how, again?) and agreed to turn over a list of everyone they had given a fake passport to in exchange for immunity.

    I suspect the real story will come out eventually, probably in the not-too-distant future.
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Polish FSSPX priest arrested in connection with covid sanitary restrictions
    « Reply #18 on: January 17, 2022, 02:55:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on January 17, 2022, 02:48:46 PM
    So the ends justify the means?

    I can take a morally illicit shot, so long as I can rationalize the good I can do as a consequence?
    He probably doesn't think it's a sin to take the shot. Hasn't the SSPX come out publicly and said as much?
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Polish FSSPX priest arrested in connection with covid sanitary restrictions
    « Reply #19 on: January 17, 2022, 02:56:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: andy on January 17, 2022, 02:52:54 PM
    There is that double effect principle ...

    No.

    Firstly, because there is still the unresolved matter of whether taking the shot it formal or material cooperation (and if the former, then double effect does not apply).

    Secondly, because the Vatican (upon whose rationale the SSPX appeals for the alleged moral liceity, if in fact it is material cooperation) laid out the criterion to be present for moral liceity vis-a-vis the covid vax, and they clearly have not been met.  The SSPX cannot appeal to the Vatican to claim moral liceity, but then ignore its conditions, and substitute its own more convenient conditions.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Polish FSSPX priest arrested in connection with covid sanitary restrictions
    « Reply #20 on: January 17, 2022, 02:58:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on January 17, 2022, 02:55:06 PM
    He probably doesn't think it's a sin to take the shot. Hasn't the SSPX come out publicly and said as much?

    That's what I suggested toward the beginning of the thread:

    Given the SSPX position, he probably only opposes the shot from a safety risk.

    If that weren't the case, then he would be prevented from using a fake covid pass because of the danger of scandal.
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    Offline andy

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    Re: Polish FSSPX priest arrested in connection with covid sanitary restrictions
    « Reply #21 on: January 17, 2022, 02:58:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on January 17, 2022, 02:53:05 PM
    You are ignoring the problem is scandal:

    Believe or know, I totally realize that this is a slippery slope.

    Being officially jabbed in the system when we are 100% sure that they will go hard after those who try to evade it is not very prudent IMHO. You make yourself a sitting duck by going this route.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Polish FSSPX priest arrested in connection with covid sanitary restrictions
    « Reply #22 on: January 17, 2022, 03:02:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: andy on January 17, 2022, 02:58:48 PM
    Believe or know, I totally realize that this is a slippery slope.

    Being officially jabbed in the system when we are 100% sure that they will go hard after those who try to evade it is not very prudent IMHO. You make yourself a sitting duck by going this route.

    That is why we have prelates like +Vigano, et al. telling us to prepare to suffer, pray for patience and perseverance, make reparation, and focus more on loving God rather than the tortures and persecutions (as Fr. Pagliarani reminds us).
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    Offline andy

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    Re: Polish FSSPX priest arrested in connection with covid sanitary restrictions
    « Reply #23 on: January 17, 2022, 03:02:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on January 17, 2022, 02:56:10 PM
    No.

    Firstly, because there is still the unresolved matter of whether taking the shot it formal or material cooperation (and if the former, then double effect does not apply).

    Secondly, because the Vatican (upon whose rationale the SSPX appeals for the alleged moral liceity, if in fact it is material cooperation) laid out the criterion to be present for moral liceity vis-a-vis the covid vax, and they clearly have not been met.  The SSPX cannot appeal to the Vatican to claim moral liceity, but then ignore its conditions, and substitute its own more convenient conditions.
    The bad act here is lying not vax itself. Proving that there is a formal cooperation is quite a long shot.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Polish FSSPX priest arrested in connection with covid sanitary restrictions
    « Reply #24 on: January 17, 2022, 03:04:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: andy on January 17, 2022, 03:02:50 PM
    The bad act here is lying not vax itself. Proving that there is a formal cooperation is quite a long shot.

    Then scandal precludes the liceity of the act.
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    Offline andy

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    Re: Polish FSSPX priest arrested in connection with covid sanitary restrictions
    « Reply #25 on: January 17, 2022, 03:09:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on January 17, 2022, 03:04:30 PM
    Then scandal precludes the liceity of the act.
    It would be a true scandal if we indeed dealt with a just law.

    Can catholic drive 80MPH in 50MPH zone where there is no danger to anyone and not sin?
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Polish FSSPX priest arrested in connection with covid sanitary restrictions
    « Reply #26 on: January 17, 2022, 03:17:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: andy on January 17, 2022, 03:09:41 PM
    It would be a true scandal if we indeed dealt with a just law.

    Can catholic drive 80MPH in 50MPH zone where there is no danger to anyone and not sin?

    On the contrary, there is never scandal in a properly formed conscience when complying with a just law.

    But it is precisely in feigning (or actually rendering) compliance with unjust laws that scandal arises, because others are induced to comply by the example.

    And in this case, the scandalous implication is that it’s ok to take the shot.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Polish FSSPX priest arrested in connection with covid sanitary restrictions
    « Reply #27 on: January 17, 2022, 03:20:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on January 17, 2022, 02:53:05 PM
    m
    You are ignoring the problem is scandal:

    A fake covid pass conveys complicity,  Catholics will see the priest travelling freely, know it could only because he took the abortion shot, and say to themselves, "If he can take it, so can I."

    That problem can't be sidestepped.

    How would they KNOW that he took the abortion jab?  In fact they would be wrong and would not know it but would wrongly suspect it.  And there's no other explanation regarding how the priest could "travel" freely?  What if he doesn't travel outside of Poland at all?

    BTW, in Hungary (and I suspect the same is true of Poland), the chief jab available was the Chinese one that is not abortion-tainted, the Sinopharm.  Many people in Hungary were complaining that they couldn't get Pfizer.  You can get that and also the COVAXIN / Covishield (which also is not abortion-tainted) there.  And if you're jabbed in one EU country, you can move about (most countries in) the EU.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Polish FSSPX priest arrested in connection with covid sanitary restrictions
    « Reply #28 on: January 17, 2022, 03:23:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 17, 2022, 03:20:32 PM
    How would they KNOW that he took the abortion jab?  In fact they would be wrong and would not know it but would wrongly suspect it.  And there's no other explanation regarding how the priest could "travel" freely?  What if he doesn't travel outside of Poland at all?

    BTW, in Hungary (and I suspect the same is true of Poland), the chief jab available was the Chinese one that is not abortion-tainted, the Sinopharm.  Many people in Hungary were complaining that they couldn't get Pfizer.  You can get that and also the COVAXIN / Covishield (which also is not abortion-tainted) there.  And if you're jabbed in one EU country, you can move about (most countries in) the EU.

    For example, if in Poland a covid pass is required for domestic or international air travel (as in Canada and elsewhere), and this priest travels, the deduction follows.

    PS: Obviously, this whole conversation presumes we are talking about an abortion jab.  If not, then none of this applies.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Polish FSSPX priest arrested in connection with covid sanitary restrictions
    « Reply #29 on: January 17, 2022, 03:31:23 PM »
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    • Incidentally, according to this website, the non-abortive Sinopharm jab is not currently available in Poland:

    https://covid19.trackvaccines.org/country/poland/
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