Author Topic: Pater Noster (Read 1810 times)

songbird · « **Reply #5 on:** February 21, 2015, 03:30:19 PM »

Some people, who serve the flesh, Protestants, want to stand out away from the Catholic version. We bury the dead, just as Christ was and we will raise one day. The Pagans stand out and the cremate.

The New Order is communism. They serve the State, while looking religious.

TKGS · « **Reply #6 on:** February 21, 2015, 08:35:59 PM »

Quote from: RomanCatholic1953

I asked that question over 40 years ago to a Priest. He replied that the new version of the Lord's Prayer was adopted from the Orthodox church prayer book. And they use this version in their services.
If anyone that has a Christian Orthodox Prayer book, or what they call a divine service
book of what they call their mass, please confirm?

You can find a copy of The Eastern Orthodox Prayer Book compiled by Bishop Fan Stylian Noli, published in 1947 by the Albanian Orthodox Church in America, Boston, Massachusetts online in pdf format:

http://www.shqiptarortodoks.com/tekste/liturgjike/Noli_1949.pdf

On page 96 of the book, in the section for the Divine Liturgy, is The Lord's Prayer. In this prayer book, the choir recites (or chants) the prayer through "deliver us from evil." The priest then recites (or chants) the lines that we commonly view as the Protestant ending of the prayer. All of this is under the subheading "THE LORD'S PRAYER".

So it would seem that the priest was correct that the Orthodox do indeed use the Protestant version of the Our Father in their services.

Nadir · « **Reply #7 on:** February 21, 2015, 08:48:18 PM »

The words are an addition which appear in the King James protestant version.

King James Version
Matthew 6:

Quote

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10.    Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11.    Give us this day our daily bread.
12.    And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13.    And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Douay-Rheims

Quote

Thus therefore shall you pray: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our supersubstantial bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. Amen.

Note: Supersubstantial bread: In St. Luke the same word is rendered daily bread. It is understood of the bread of life, which we receive in the Blessed Sacrament.

Luke 11: one of his disciples said to him: Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. [2] And he said to them: When you pray, say: Father, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. [3] Give us this day our daily bread. [4] And forgive us our sins, for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.

BTNYC · « **Reply #8 on:** February 23, 2015, 12:23:56 PM »

Quote from: TKGS

So it would seem that the priest was correct that the Orthodox do indeed use the Protestant version of the Our Father in their services.

More accurately, the Protestants use the Byzantines' formula (which predates the infelicitous lives of Luther and Calvin by centuries).

The concluding doxology is from a gloss in certain ancient Greek manuscripts which found its way into the Divine Liturgy of the Greek Churches and persists today in both schismatic and Byzantine Catholic Masses (which is perfectly fine, as the doxology, although not Scripturally canonical, is perfectly orthodox).

As to how it ended up in the NO, I think it probably came in on the same tide of idiotic fetishism of 20th century liturgists for all things Eastern that resulted in that abominable butchered aping of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom known as the "Prayer of the Faithful" (you see, repetitions are just fine just as long as they're Greek and not Latin in origin). The fact that this also appealed to Protestants reared on the KJ version of the Lord's Prayer was probably just the icing on the ecuмenical cake.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #9 on:** February 23, 2015, 12:42:23 PM »

Quote from: BTNYC

Quote from: TKGS

So it would seem that the priest was correct that the Orthodox do indeed use the Protestant version of the Our Father in their services.

More accurately, the Protestants use the Byzantines' formula (which predates the infelicitous lives of Luther and Calvin by centuries).

The concluding doxology is from a gloss in certain ancient Greek manuscripts which found its way into the Divine Liturgy of the Greek Churches and persists today in both schismatic and Byzantine Catholic Masses (which is perfectly fine, as the doxology, although not Scripturally canonical, is perfectly orthodox).

As to how it ended up in the NO, I think it probably came in on the same tide of idiotic fetishism of 20th century liturgists for all things Eastern that resulted in that abominable butchered aping of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom known as the "Prayer of the Faithful" (you see, repetitions are just fine just as long as they're Greek and not Latin in origin). The fact that this also appealed to Protestants reared on the KJ version of the Lord's Prayer was probably just the icing on the ecuмenical cake.

Nice, balanced, objective answer.