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Author Topic: Paradigm for a Catholic economic and banking system?  (Read 2178 times)

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Offline SimpleMan

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Paradigm for a Catholic economic and banking system?
« on: August 08, 2022, 10:33:20 AM »
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  • What would be some of the features of a Catholic economic and banking system, in which no interest is charged, and the only assessment beyond the face value of the money being repaid, would be things such as administrative fees, paying salaries to the people who run the system (bank employees, mortgage originators, et al), physical plant for the bank, and so on?

    First of all, depositors would put their money in the bank, but it would only be for safekeeping and trust purposes, a safer alternative to keeping the money in one's home.  Then they could write checks on the money, have it put into electronic form, and so on.  Credit cards would exist, but only as a promise of future payment of the money being borrowed, with, again, anything above the face value of the money would only be administrative and service fees, with no interest element and no concept of "time value of money" or compensation for risk.

    Mortgages would work the same way.  They would be zero interest, again, the money loaned to buy the house coming from savings deposits made by bank customers.  The mortgagor would pay, for a 30-year loan, 1/360th of the original principal balance, plus the non-interest fees I described above.  There could also be a premium of sorts to reimburse the bank for foreclosures, IOW, the entire pool of borrowers paying into a fund that would make the bank good for the money they are bound to lose in those 1 to 2 percent of loans that could be foreseen not to be repaid (one would hope, for reasons beyond the control of the borrower, such as financial catastrophe, death of the breadwinner, and so on).  And perhaps "foreclosure" isn't the best word --- I would hope such a bank would work to keep innocent people who have fallen into penury (widows, orphans, those who have been injured or fall sick and cannot work to repay the loan) in their homes, and not be put out into the street.  It would not be to keep "bounders" who simply don't pay back their loans in possession of their houses --- those homes would be fair game for repossession by the bank and sale to someone else.

    The "pump-priming" money to get the bank started could come from the sovereign government (either a Catholic monarchy or commonwealth), and would be paid back as the bank began to receive deposits from customers.  In this system, the sovereign would coin money (or issue fiat money, assuming a sovereign has the right to do so) commensurate with the growth of the economy and the value added by an ever-increasing population, not some sort of private reserve bank that creates money out of thin air, such as the Fed.

    The only catch here, would be that you couldn't have every customer of the bank wake up one morning and decide to go down to the bank and take out all their money, as there would no longer be enough money to make new loans.

    I'm very likely missing some of the "moving parts" here, so I'll welcome input.  

    Thoughts from the forum?



    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Paradigm for a Catholic economic and banking system?
    « Reply #1 on: August 08, 2022, 11:05:14 AM »
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  • “Electronic form” is dangerous for many reasons.  No credit cards either.  Dont spend money you don’t have.  All this is being used to eliminate cash.  Many on welfare are using cards and cell phones to buy.  There is talk about bartering already. 

    Eliminate the federal evil reserve. 

    Go back to basic traditional banking where physical money is in the bank.  






    May God bless you and keep you


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Paradigm for a Catholic economic and banking system?
    « Reply #2 on: August 08, 2022, 05:14:18 PM »
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  • “Electronic form” is dangerous for many reasons.  No credit cards either.  Dont spend money you don’t have.  All this is being used to eliminate cash.  Many on welfare are using cards and cell phones to buy.  There is talk about bartering already.

    Eliminate the federal evil reserve.

    Go back to basic traditional banking where physical money is in the bank. 

    Sometimes it's a practical necessity, or at least it helps with bookkeeping both by buyer and seller.  Back in the day, a lot of people ran a tab at the corner grocery store and similar retailers.  I seriously doubt they charged interest.  It was just the neighborly, customer-friendly thing to do.  You settled up at the end of the month, or if you couldn't, well, the shopkeeper would work with you.  He wants to keep customers.

    And as for mortgages, who has the money to buy a house cash in hand?  Certainly young families wouldn't.  My proposal is for zero-interest loans where the principal is paid back over time, as opposed to amortization where it's almost all interest and almost no principal at the outset, and then those ratios descend in a kind of curve (picture a graph).

    What I envision is a kind of mutual benefit society, in which there is a gentleman's understanding that the money I deposit for safekeeping, indeed my own savings, is being used now to help people who need loans, and that all of the depositors won't go down and take out their money all at once.

    Agreed about the federal reserve.  Note what I said about the sovereign issuing money, not an independent entity.  

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Paradigm for a Catholic economic and banking system?
    « Reply #3 on: August 08, 2022, 09:50:51 PM »
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  • There could also be a premium of sorts to reimburse the bank for foreclosures, IOW, the entire pool of borrowers paying into a fund that would make the bank good for the money they are bound to lose in those 1 to 2 percent of loans that could be foreseen not to be repaid (one would hope, for reasons beyond the control of the borrower, such as financial catastrophe, death of the breadwinner, and so on).  And perhaps "foreclosure" isn't the best word --- I would hope such a bank would work to keep innocent people who have fallen into penury (widows, orphans, those who have been injured or fall sick and cannot work to repay the loan) in their homes, and not be put out into the street.  It would not be to keep "bounders" who simply don't pay back their loans in possession of their houses --- those homes would be fair game for repossession by the bank and sale to someone else.

    Come to think of it, this kind of "premium" already exists in the form of "private mortgage insurance" (PMI), in which, if you borrow over a certain percentage of the sales price of the home (usually 80%), you pay a monthly insurance premium, which indemnifies the bank in case you default on your loan.  When there is a foreclosure, there are many expenses to the lender --- having to keep paying taxes and insurance on the subject property (they don't want to lose the property to a tax sale or to destruction of the home, leaving only land which supposedly never becomes worthless --- I always dissented from this in cases where, for instance, the land is now under water or develops sinkholes, has a collapsed mine under it, and so on), property preservation, winterization if that's a factor, HOA fees, and so on.  As our director told us one time, banks are not in the real estate business, and do not want to be.  Everybody comes out a loser.  This would be the case even in an idealized interest-free Catholic banking system, as things happen in life, and a few people end up living in homes they can't pay for.

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Paradigm for a Catholic economic and banking system?
    « Reply #4 on: August 09, 2022, 05:47:02 AM »
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  • Simple man, have you investigated Monte di Pietà?

    The institutions called Monte di Pietà originated in 15th-century Italy, where these instutions gave poor people access to loans with reasonable interest rates. It used funds from charitable donors as capital, and made loans to the poor so they could avoid going to exploitative lenders. Borrowers offered valuables as collateral, making the mount of piety more like a pawn shop than a bank.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_of_piety
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Paradigm for a Catholic economic and banking system?
    « Reply #5 on: August 09, 2022, 06:15:07 AM »
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  • How about credit unions?

    My first use of a credit union was in early 1970’s. It was a combined 3 public hospitals in close proximity to each other and it had an office at the hospital where I worked.

    I have since attempted to use credit unions in preference to banks. They are member owned and provide better terms and members have a common interest.

    Sadly, the CU’s we used have gone the way of the world, i.e. become banks.

    See The Case for Cathic Crudit Unions
    https//:catholiccua.blog/
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Paradigm for a Catholic economic and banking system?
    « Reply #6 on: August 09, 2022, 06:36:45 AM »
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  • Do a run around this site. This is a good example of a community owned and based credit union.
    Traditional Credit Union
    https://tcu.com.au/





    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Paradigm for a Catholic economic and banking system?
    « Reply #7 on: August 09, 2022, 11:46:29 AM »
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  • Simple man, have you investigated Monte di Pietà?

    The institutions called Monte di Pietà originated in 15th-century Italy, where these instutions gave poor people access to loans with reasonable interest rates. It used funds from charitable donors as capital, and made loans to the poor so they could avoid going to exploitative lenders. Borrowers offered valuables as collateral, making the mount of piety more like a pawn shop than a bank.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_of_piety


    I've heard of it, but my concept is one of zero interest, not "reasonable" interest.

    Usury (i.e., the collection of any interest at all) is the one thing about the Catholic religion at which I am at loggerheads with myself either way.  On the one hand, I cannot, with my natural reason, understand why it is morally licit to collect rent on everything in the world except money.  You can rent out a car, a house, a steam cleaner, a backhoe, furniture, electronics, but you can't "rent money" to someone?  But on the other hand, how can something have at one time been considered sinful, but not now be considered sinful?  Aquinas, venerable as he is, is not the magisterium.

    So in the absence of clear, authoritative magisterial teaching (from before Vatican II) to the contrary, I collect interest on my very modest portfolio of Treasury bills, mortgage-backed securities, and similar instruments, and live with the dilemma.  I think a case can be made that being deprived of the use of one's money (including the opportunity cost of not being able to invest it in something else, such as a profit-making entity), and not being paid some kind of compensation for this, constitutes a kind of injustice to the lender.  That money could be out here in the economy, invested in a business enterprise and making money for its owner, but alas, it is not.  (Or maybe it is a case of "reciprocal injustices", injustice done to the payer of the interest so that the lender won't suffer an injustice in turn.)


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Paradigm for a Catholic economic and banking system?
    « Reply #8 on: August 09, 2022, 11:53:09 AM »
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  • How about credit unions?

    My first use of a credit union was in early 1970’s. It was a combined 3 public hospitals in close proximity to each other and it had an office at the hospital where I worked.

    I have since attempted to use credit unions in preference to banks. They are member owned and provide better terms and members have a common interest.

    Sadly, the CU’s we used have gone the way of the world, i.e. become banks.

    See The Case for Cathic Crudit Unions
    https//:catholiccua.blog/

    I am very much a "fan" of credit unions, and I do my everyday banking through one, as does my mother.  I have had too many bad experiences with profit-oriented commercial banks, poor bookkeeping and lack of accountability.

    I am being forced to engage with a bank for estate and trust matters, but that is simply because there are few financial institutions in our area that are willing to do both.  My prospective bank is a small entity, very much "good old boy" Southern, and confined to the middle part of our state, so it is not nearly as fearsome as one of these huge nationwide banks to whom you're just a number.

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Paradigm for a Catholic economic and banking system?
    « Reply #9 on: August 09, 2022, 11:59:23 AM »
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  • Do a run around this site. This is a good example of a community owned and based credit union.
    Traditional Credit Union
    https://tcu.com.au/

    The link doesn't work, but I was able to find their Facebook page.  Pretty cool concept, Aboriginal-dedicated credit union.  I'm all in favor of various communities and interest groups having their own financial institutions.

    Online Miseremini

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    Re: Paradigm for a Catholic economic and banking system?
    « Reply #10 on: August 10, 2022, 03:37:24 PM »
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  • How about credit unions?

    My first use of a credit union was in early 1970’s. It was a combined 3 public hospitals in close proximity to each other and it had an office at the hospital where I worked.

    I have since attempted to use credit unions in preference to banks. They are member owned and provide better terms and members have a common interest.

    Sadly, the CU’s we used have gone the way of the world, i.e. become banks.

    See The Case for Cathic Crudit Unions
    https//:catholiccua.blog/
    I too have been using a CU since the '70's when St Stanislaus Credit Union was introduced at our church.  Yes they do have better rates
    Unfortunately, they did away with the books and when to statements a couple years ago which you now have to pay for along with every little transaction, but I still prefer them as staff doesn't change so often and it's still member owned.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]



    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Paradigm for a Catholic economic and banking system?
    « Reply #11 on: August 10, 2022, 07:09:06 PM »
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  • What about Catholic Cooperatives?

    Here is an interesting article which refers to the concept and cites the Spanish Mondragon, built on Catholic concepts. I wonder if Drolo can give us his thoughts on this venture?

    Bear with the writer, and his references (praises) of Cdl Cardijn and Bergoglio. There is still some good information and food for thought here:

    https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2016/08/04/why-are-catholics-so-good-creating-co-ops
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Paradigm for a Catholic economic and banking system?
    « Reply #12 on: August 10, 2022, 07:43:12 PM »
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  • What about Catholic Cooperatives?

    Here is an interesting article which refers to the concept and cites the Spanish Mondragon, built on Catholic concepts. I wonder if Drolo can give us his thoughts on this venture?

    Bear with the writer, and his references (praises) of Cdl Cardijn and Bergoglio. There is still some good information and food for thought here:

    https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2016/08/04/why-are-catholics-so-good-creating-co-ops

    Those would be good too.

    The concept dovetails nicely with such things as the principle of subsidiarity, guilds, solidarism, and so on.

    The way business is done in parts of the Southern United States, as well as some small towns, based not so much upon getting the absolute most bang for your buck, but establishing relationships and doing business with the people you know (or who know people you know, and so on), is also something that is very compatible with Catholic social doctrine.  When my parents first moved to the South, they had a neighbor who had a lawn care firm.  The neighbor offered his services.  They got someone else.  The neighbors got chilly.  I explained to them that you can't bring the ways you're used to down here --- efficiency, going for the lowest cost, everything being about the "bottom line" --- and expect people to like you, that this is the South and relationships mean everything.  If you move in next door to the town grocer, and go 15 miles down the road to Walmart for all your groceries, you're not going to be his favorite person.  That's money out of his pocket.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Paradigm for a Catholic economic and banking system?
    « Reply #13 on: August 10, 2022, 07:58:00 PM »
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  • “Electronic form” is dangerous for many reasons.  No credit cards either.  Dont spend money you don’t have.  All this is being used to eliminate cash.  Many on welfare are using cards and cell phones to buy.  There is talk about bartering already.

    Eliminate the federal evil reserve.

    Go back to basic traditional banking where physical money is in the bank. 

    There's no issue with credit cards.  People might have an emergency expenses.  Credit Cards are simply pre-approved loans that are ready to use in the event of some serious need.  Interest is the problem.

    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Paradigm for a Catholic economic and banking system?
    « Reply #14 on: August 11, 2022, 07:47:32 AM »
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  • “Electronic form” is dangerous for many reasons.  No credit cards either.  Dont spend money you don’t have.  All this is being used to eliminate cash.  Many on welfare are using cards and cell phones to buy.  There is talk about bartering already.

    Eliminate the federal evil reserve.

    Go back to basic traditional banking where physical money is in the bank. 
    Yes.  Electronic form is recorded on Blockchain which is the foundation of the Financial Great Reset and UN ESG score social credit system.

    See the WEF website for loads of info on that.

    They are implementing this system little by little world wide, including Russia, China, Brazil....everywhere.

    Steve Bannon and Alex Jones are luring "conservatives" and "patriots" into this trap:

    8mins
    https://hugotalks.com/2022/08/11/they-are-playing-you-like-a-fiddle-%f0%9f%8e%bb-hugo-talks/
    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



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