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Author Topic: Saints weigh in on being STUBBORN  (Read 2070 times)

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Offline Freind

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Saints weigh in on being STUBBORN
« on: December 12, 2025, 05:46:03 PM »
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    • I asked AI for quotes on this:

    St. Augustine (354-430):
    “Pride is the commencement of all sin; and the beginning of pride is stubbornness.”

    St. John Chrysostom (349-407):
    “Nothing is so fatal to the soul as stubbornness. It closes the door to grace and makes repentance impossible.”

    St. Francis de Sales (1567-1622):
    “Stubbornness in error is worse than the error itself.”

    St. Alphonsus Liguori (1696-1787):
    “The stubborn soul resists God’s will and clings to its own, thereby losing countless graces.”

    St. Teresa of Ávila (1515-1582):
    “Stubbornness in holding to our own opinions often leads us far from the truth God wishes to reveal.”

    St. Vincent Ferrer (1350-1419):
    “Obstinacy in sin is the certain road to perdition.”

    St. Bernard of Clairvaux (1090-1153):
    “A stubborn will is like a locked door—until it is opened to humility, God’s grace cannot enter.”

    St. Catherine of Siena (1347-1380):
    “The stubborn heart, attached to its own judgment, builds a wall between itself and divine mercy.”

    St. John Vianney (1786-1859):
    “There is nothing more displeasing to God than a soul that is stubborn in its own will.”

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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Saints weigh in on being STUBBORN
    « Reply #1 on: December 12, 2025, 06:48:10 PM »
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    • But there is also a good kind of stubbornness, when you are determined to adhere to the truth no matter what, in the face of efforts all around you, to get you to renounce it.  Ditto being "stubborn" in resisting sin and temptation.

    Obviously that's not the kind of stubbornness to which the saints refer.
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    Offline Freind

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    Re: Saints weigh in on being STUBBORN
    « Reply #2 on: December 12, 2025, 06:53:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on December 12, 2025, 06:48:10 PM
    But there is also a good kind of stubbornness, when you are determined to adhere to the truth no matter what, in the face of efforts all around you, to get you to renounce it.  Ditto being "stubborn" in resisting sin and temptation.

    Obviously that's not the kind of stubbornness to which the saints refer.

    Give us some quotes about what you are saying.
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    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: Saints weigh in on being STUBBORN
    « Reply #3 on: December 13, 2025, 12:59:56 PM »
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    • Stubbornness is not a virtue.

    It is always a vice. 

    It refers to a deep attachment to error.

    We can discern truth through study, prayer, and listening to others. 

    Problem is that many people, especially in the west are so used to the individualistic society we live in, they trust only their judgment, or the judgment of their families, and will not listen to other people, the common understanding of other trads etc. etc. There is little docility of soul. 

    I remember a few months ago being reminded of this with a certain person who was so convinced of her own opinion on something. I patiently tried to explain that no other trad, or any reasonable person, would see things the way she was seeing them. Instead of stopping and pondering this truth, she doubled down, and said, "well they're all wrong". This is the very definition of prideful stubbornness. And to make things worse had the audacity to accuse me of being the one who was stubborn.

    It's important to remember that pride is the WORST of all sins. Because by pride a man pulls out his own eyes. The eyes of his soul that is. Many other sins, are sins of weakness of the flesh. Which, when repented from, get compassion from God. But pride is so diabolical, because it puts one on an equal footing with God. It governs all the other sins in a way, just as humility does for virtue. 


    Now what simpleman may be referring to is attachment to the TRUTH. This is a very different thing. It can appear prideful to stubborn or just pure stupid people, but it is a very rational acceptance of the superiority of the supernatural over the natural, or the simple acceptance of the natural law, against someone who won't accept it. 




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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Saints weigh in on being STUBBORN
    « Reply #4 on: December 13, 2025, 04:41:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Freind on December 12, 2025, 06:53:10 PM
    Give us some quotes about what you are saying.

    Just common sense.  When you have people around you, who are trying to get you to sin, or to deny the truth, you have to be very stubborn about refusing to acquiesce.  Perhaps fortitude is the better word.
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    Offline Freind

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    Re: Saints weigh in on being STUBBORN
    « Reply #5 on: December 13, 2025, 04:58:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on December 13, 2025, 04:41:21 PM
    Just common sense.  When you have people around you, who are trying to get you to sin, or to deny the truth, you have to be very stubborn about refusing to acquiesce.  Perhaps fortitude is the better word.

    What you just called common sense overlooks that they are attached to their own discernment that they are trying to be pushed to sin or into error. It's not common sense. An attitude of reason, logic and truth looks outside of oneself.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Saints weigh in on being STUBBORN
    « Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 07:23:28 AM »
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    • Quote from: Freind on December 13, 2025, 04:58:05 PM
    What you just called common sense overlooks that they are attached to their own discernment that they are trying to be pushed to sin or into error. It's not common sense. An attitude of reason, logic and truth looks outside of oneself.
    Yes, and when you have people all around you, who are trying to pull you away from that very attitude, you have to be adamant and dig in your heels.  I would call that being "stubborn" in the face of your adversaries, and those adversaries would most likely describe you the same way, but if the word "stubborn" is always seen as having a negative connotation, perhaps it's not the word to use.

    It might be a regional thing.  The way I was raised, for instance, the word "sarcastic" referred just to disagreeable, confrontational speech in general, what my father always referred to as "sharp talking", not the narrower definition of saying one thing when your tone clearly indicates that you mean the opposite.
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    Offline Freind

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    Re: Saints weigh in on being STUBBORN
    « Reply #7 on: Yesterday at 07:44:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on Yesterday at 07:23:28 AM
    Yes, and when you have people all around you, who are trying to pull you away from that very attitude, you have to be adamant and dig in your heels.  I would call that being "stubborn" in the face of your adversaries, and those adversaries would most likely describe you the same way, but if the word "stubborn" is always seen as having a negative connotation, perhaps it's not the word to use.

    It might be a regional thing.  The way I was raised, for instance, the word "sarcastic" referred just to disagreeable, confrontational speech in general, what my father always referred to as "sharp talking", not the narrower definition of saying one thing when your tone clearly indicates that you mean the opposite.

    Give us a quote form the Saint using stubborn in the sense you are trying to make it.
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    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Saints weigh in on being STUBBORN
    « Reply #8 on: Yesterday at 09:12:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on December 13, 2025, 04:41:21 PM
    When you have people around you, who are trying to get you to sin, or to deny the truth, you have to be very stubborn about refusing to acquiesce.  Perhaps fortitude is the better word.

    adjective
    adjective: stubborn
    • having or showing dogged determination not to change one's attitude or position on something, especially in spite of good arguments or reasons to do so.
    "a stubborn refusal to learn from experience"[/list]

    noun
    noun: fortitude
    • courage in pain or adversity.
      "she endured her illness with great fortitude"


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    Offline Emile

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    Re: Saints weigh in on being STUBBORN
    « Reply #9 on: Yesterday at 09:28:10 AM »
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    • STEADFASTNESS, STEDFASTNESS noun

    1. Firmness of standing; fixedness in place.

    2. Firmness of mind or purpose; fixedness in principle; constancy; resolution; as the STEDFASTNESS of faith. He adhered to his opinions with steadfastness.


    Origin and history of steadfast
    steadfast(adj.)

    Middle English stedfast, of persons, "unshakable, stubborn, resolute; firm and fixed in purpose, faith, etc." (c. 1200), from Old English stedefæst "secure in position, steady, firm in its place," from stede "place, position" (see stead) + fæst (see fast (adj.)).

    Similar formation in Middle Low German stedevast, Old Norse staðfastr "steadfast, firm; faithful, staunch, firm in one's mind." Related: Steadfastly, steadfastness.


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    “It's easy to be a naive idealist. It's easy to be a cynical realist. It's quite another thing to have no illusions and still hold the inner flame.”
     M.-L. von Franz

    Offline Freind

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    Re: Saints weigh in on being STUBBORN
    « Reply #10 on: Yesterday at 09:52:46 AM »
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    • “In the battle against error and sin, that which the world calls obstinacy, God calls fidelity.”
    - St. Augustine of Hippo, De Fide et Symbolo (c. 393 AD)

    “Firmness in upholding the Catholic faith and the divine law is not stubbornness, but rather a virtue—it is constancy in truth, which every Christian is bound to practice, even unto death.”
    - Acta Apostolicae Sedis (1918)
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    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Saints weigh in on being STUBBORN
    « Reply #11 on: Yesterday at 10:15:24 AM »
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    • Quote from: TomGubbinsKimmage on December 13, 2025, 12:59:56 PM
    Stubbornness is not a virtue.

    It is always a vice.

    It refers to a deep attachment to error.
    Tell that to St. Thomas More.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Saints weigh in on being STUBBORN
    « Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 10:28:57 AM »
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    • Quote from: Freind on December 12, 2025, 05:46:03 PM
    I asked AI for quotes on this:

    St. Augustine (354-430):
    “Pride is the commencement of all sin; and the beginning of pride is stubbornness.”

    St. John Chrysostom (349-407):
    “Nothing is so fatal to the soul as stubbornness. It closes the door to grace and makes repentance impossible.”

    St. Francis de Sales (1567-1622):
    “Stubbornness in error is worse than the error itself.”

    St. Alphonsus Liguori (1696-1787):
    “The stubborn soul resists God’s will and clings to its own, thereby losing countless graces.”

    St. Teresa of Ávila (1515-1582):
    “Stubbornness in holding to our own opinions often leads us far from the truth God wishes to reveal.”

    St. Vincent Ferrer (1350-1419):
    “Obstinacy in sin is the certain road to perdition.”

    St. Bernard of Clairvaux (1090-1153):
    “A stubborn will is like a locked door—until it is opened to humility, God’s grace cannot enter.”

    St. Catherine of Siena (1347-1380):
    “The stubborn heart, attached to its own judgment, builds a wall between itself and divine mercy.”

    St. John Vianney (1786-1859):
    “There is nothing more displeasing to God than a soul that is stubborn in its own will.”

    FYI: Why "Stubborn?"

    Also fyi, this came up on Reddit.....
    Freind is slang for drug-buddies. Friends who hang out only for drug sessions.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: Saints weigh in on being STUBBORN
    « Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 02:04:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Yesterday at 10:15:24 AM
    Tell that to St. Thomas More.


    Dictionary definitions not convincing you?

    Wow, you are true to your username.
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    Offline Freind

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    Re: Saints weigh in on being STUBBORN
    « Reply #14 on: Today at 06:25:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Yesterday at 10:28:57 AM
    FYI: Why "Stubborn?"

    Also fyi, this came up on Reddit.....
    Freind is slang for drug-buddies. Friends who hang out only for drug sessions.

    If you can come up with one quote from a Saint that says "Freind" is something morally negative, then I'll change it.
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