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Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Dawn on August 02, 2010, 05:08:23 AM
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In order to get home to Heaven, therefore, we must surround ourselves with people who are not worldlings. No, this does not mean that we are any better than other people. We are sinners. Unlike worldlings and those steeped in lives of unrepentant sin, however, and solely because of God's gratuitous graces won for us by the shedding of every single drop His Most Precious Blood on the wood of the Holy Cross and that flow into our hearts and souls through the loving hands of Our Lady, the Mediatrix of All Graces, we are sorry for our sins and want to amend our lives as we do reparation for our sins and those of the whole world as the consecrated slaves of the Most Sacred Heart of Jesus through the Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary. We must avoid bad company, Saint Alphonsus de Liguori explained in his sermon for the Thirteenth Sunday After Pentecost: On Avoiding Bad Company (15 Minutes):
"A friend of fools:, says the Holy Ghost, "shall become like them"--Prov., xiii. 20. Christians who live in enmity with God, are, Father M. Avila used to say, all fools, who deserve to be shut up in a madhouse. For, what greater madness can be conceived than to believe in Hell, and to live in sin? But the man who contracts an intimacy with these fools, shall soon become like them. Although he should hear all the sermons of the sacred orators, he will continue in vice, according to the celebrated maxim: "Examples make greater impressions than words". Hence the Royal Prophet has said: "With the elect though wilt be elect, and with the perverse thou wilt be perverted"--Ps., xvii. 27. St. Augustine says, that familiarity with sinners is as it were a hook, which draws us to communicate in their vices. Let us, said the saint, avoid wicked friends, "lest by their company we may be drawn to a communion of vice". St. Thomas teaches, that to know whom we should avoid, is a great means of saving our souls. "Firma tutela salutis est, scire quem fugiamus".
"Let their way become dark and slipper, and let the angel of the Lord pursue them"--Ps., xxxiv. 6. All men in this life walk in the midst of darkness, and in a slippery way. If, then, a bad angel--that is, a wicked companion, who is worse than any devil--pursue them, and endeavour to drive them into an abyss, who shall be able to escape death? "Talis eris", says Plato, "qualis conversatio quam sequeris?" And St. John Chrysostom said, that if we wish to know a man's moral habits, we have only to observe the character of the friends with whom he associates: because friendship finds or makes him like his friends. "Vis nosse hominem, attende quorum familiartate assuescat: amicitia aut pares invenit, aut pares facit:. First, because, to please his friends, a man will endeavour to imitate them; secondly, because, as Seneca says, nature inclines men to do what they see others do. And the Scripture says: "They were mingled among the heathens, and learned their works"--Ps., cv. 35. According to St. Basil, as air which comes from pestilential places causes infection, so, by conversation with bad companions, we almost imperceptibly contract their vices. "Quemadmodum in pestilentibus locis sensim attractus aer latentem corporibus morbum injuicit sic itidem in prava conversatione maxima a nobis mala haurinutur, etiamsi statim incommodum non sentiatur"--S. Bas., hom. ix. ex. var. Quod Deus, etc. And St. Bernard says, that St. Peter, in consequence of associating with the enemies of Jesus Christ, denied his Master. "Existens cuм passionis dominicae ministris, Dominum negavit".
But how, asks St. Ambrose, can bad companions give you the odour of chastity, when they exhale the stench of impurity? How can they infuse into you sentiments of devotion, when they themselves fly from it? How can they impart to you a shame of offending God, when they cast it away? "Quid tibi demonstrant castiatem quem non habent? Devotionem quam non sequuuntur? Verecundiam quam projiciunt?" St. Augustine writes of himself, that when he associated with bad companions, who boasted of their wickedness, he felt himself impelled to sin without shame; and to appear like them, he gloried in his evil actions. "Pudebat", he says, "me esse pudentum"-lib. 2, de Conf., c. ix. Hence Isaias admonishes you to "touch no unclean thing:--Isa., lii. 11. Touch not what is unclean: if you don, you too shall be polluted. he that handles pitch, says Ecclesiasticus, shall certainly be defiled with it; and they who keep company with the proud, shall be clothed with pride. The same holds for other vices: "He that toucheth pitch, shall be defiled with it; and he hath fellowship with the proud, shall put on pride"--Eccl., xiii. 1.
What then must we do? The Wise Man tells us, that we ought not only to avoid the vices of the wicked, but also to beware of treading in the ways in which they walk. "Restrain they foot from their paths"--Prov., i. 15. That is, we should avoid their conversations, their discourses, their feasts, and all the allurements and presents with which they will seek to entice us into their net. "My son," says Solomon, "if sinners shall entice thee, consent not them"--Prov., i. 10. Without the decoy, the birds are not enticed into the fowler's net. "Will the bird fall into the snare upon the earth, if there be no fowler?"--Amos, iii. 5. The Devil employs vicious friends as decoys, to draw so many souls into the snare of sin. "My enemies", says Jeremias, "have chased me, and have caught me like a bird without cause"--Lamen., iii. 52. He says, without cause. Ask the wicked whey they have made a certain innocent young man fall into sin; and they will answer: We have done it without cause; we only wish to see him to do what we ourselves do. This, says St. Ephrem, is one of the artifices of the Devil: when he has caught a soul in his net, he makes him a snare, or a decoy, to deceive others. "cuм primum capta fuerit anima, ad alias decipiendas fit quasi laqueus".
Hence it is necessary to avoid, as you would a plague, all familiarity with these scorpions of Hell. I have said that you must avoid familiarity with them--that is, all fellowship in their banquets or conversation; for, never to meet them is, as the Apostle says, impossible. "Otherwise you must needs go out of this world"--I. Cor., v. 10. But, it is in our power to abstain from familiar intercourse with them. "But now I have written to you, not to keep company, etc........with such a one, not so much as to eat"--ibid., v. 11. I have called them scorpions: so they have been called by the Prophet Ezechiel: "Thou art among unbelievers and destroyers, and thou dwellest among scorpions"--Ezech., ii. 6. Would you live in the midst of scorpions? You must then fly from scandalous friends, who, by their bad examples and words, poison your soul. "A man's enemies shall be they of his own household"--Matt., x. 36. Wicked friends that are very familiar and intimate to us, become the most pernicious enemies of our souls. "Who", says Ecclesiasticus, "will pit an enchanter struck by a serpent, or any that come near wild beasts? So it is with him that keepeth company with a wicked man"--Eccl., xii. 13. If the man that makes free with serpents, or with ferocious wild beasts, be bitten or devoured by them, who will take pity on him? And so it is with him who associates with scandalous companions; if, by their bad example, he be contaminated and lost, neither God nor man will have compassion on him; because he was cautioned to fly from their society.
One scandalous companion is enough to corrupt all who treat him as a friend. "Know you not", says St. Paul, "That a little leaven corrupts the whole lump?"--I. Cor., v. 6. One of these scandalous sinners is able, by a perverse maxim, to infect all his companions. They are the false prophets whom Jesus Christ warns us to avoid. "Beware of false prophets",--Matt., vii. 15. False prophets deceive, not only by false predictions, but also by false maxims or doctrines, which are productive of the greatest mischief. For, as Seneca says, they leave in the soul certain seeds of iniquity which lead to evil. "Semina in animo relinquunt, quae inducunt ad malum". It is too true that scandalous language, as experience proves, corrupts the morals of those who hear it. "Evil communications", says the Apostle, "corrupt good manner"--I. cor., xv. 33. A young man refuses, through the fear of God, to commit a certain sin; an incarnate David, a bad companion, comes, and says to him what the serpent said to Eve--"No; you shall not die the death"--Gen., iii. 4. What are you afraid of? How many others commit this sin? You are young; God will have pity on your youth. They will, as is written in the book of Wisdom, say: "Come, therefore, let us enjoy the good things that are present,...let us spend our time in amusements and in joy. "O nimis iniqua amicitia", says St. Augustine, "cuм dicitur, eaumus, faciamus: pudet non esse impudentum". O cruel friendship of those who say: Let us go and do, etc.; it is a shame not e shameless. He who hears such language is shamed not to yield to it, and not to be as shameless as they who utter it.
When any passion is kindled within us, we must be particularly careful in selecting the persons whom we will consult. For, then the passion itself will incline us to seek counsel from those who will probably give the advice which is most agreeable to the passion. But from such evil counsellors, who do not speak according to God, we should fly with greater horror than from an enemy; for their evil counsel, along with the passion which is excited, may precipitate us into horrible excesses. As soon as the passion shall subside, we shall see the error committed, and the delusion into which we have been led by false friends. But the good advice of a friend, who speaks according to Christian truth and meekness, preservers us from every disorder, and restores calm to the soul.
"Depart from the unjust", says the Lord, "and evils shall depart from thee"--Eccl., vii. 2. Fly, separate from wicked companions, and you shall cease to commit sin. "Neither let the way of evil please thee. Flee from it, pass not by it; go aside and forsake it"--Prov., iv., 14, 15. Avoid the ways in which these vicious friends walk, that you may not even meet them. "Forsake not an old friend; for the new will not be like to him"--Eccl., ix.. 14. Do not leave your first friend, who loved you before you came into the world. "I have love thee with an everlasting love"--Jer., xxxi. 3. Your new friends do not love you; they hate you more than your greatest enemy; they seek not your welfare, as God does, but their own pleasures, and the satisfaction of having companions of their wickedness and perdition. You will, perhaps, say: I feel a repugnance to separate from such a friend, who has been solicitous for my welfare; to break off from him would appear to be an act of ingratitude. What welfare? what ingratitude? god alone wishes your welfare; to break off from him would appear to be an act of ingratitude. Your friend wishes your eternal ruin; he wishes you to follow him, but cares not if you be damned. It is not ingratitude to abandon a friend who leads you to Hell; but it is ingratitude to forsake God, who has created you, who has died for you on the cross, and who desires your salvation.
Fly then from the conversation of the these wicked friends. "Hedge in thy ears with thorns, hear not a wicked tongue"--Eccl., xxviiii. 28. Beware of listening to the language of such friends; their words may bring you to perdition. And when you hear them speak improperly, arm yourself with thorns, and reprove them, not only for the purpose of rebuking, but also of converting them. "Ut non solum", says St. Augustine, "repellantur sed etiam compunganatur". Listen to a frightful example, and learn the evil which a wicked friend does. Father Sabatino relates in his Evangelical Light, that two friends of that kind were one day together. One of them, to please the other, committed a sin; but, after they separated, he died suddenly. The other, who knew nothing of his death, saw, in his sleep, his friend, and according to his custom, ran to embrace him. But the deceased appeared to be surrounded with fire, and began to blaspheme the other, and to upbraid him for being the cause of his damnation. The other awoke, and changed his life. But his unhappy friend was damned; and for his damnation there is not, and shall not be, any remedy for all eternity. (Thirteenth Sunday After Pentecost: On Avoiding Bad Company.)
Those of us who are parents have a particular obligation to make sure that our children do not have bad companions, and that we do not give them scandal by associating with those who are unrepentant sinners who are hostile to the truths of the Holy Faith. It is better for there to be a little estrangement, yes, even from parents and brothers and sisters and other relatives, in this passing, mortal vale of tears than an unhappy reunion with them in Hell for all eternity.
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Thanks Dawn, good to "see" you back here!!
a good primer, no doubt for a cultic americanist heretic friends here.....and the neocons likely lurking...
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You know it is true. As we go further into our Faith we have fewer and fewer persons in our life. I do find myself whittling away persons in my life that are not of the faith and further more have never shown any interest in it. I do not need them and I do not need their baggage that surrounds them. Heck I have enough of my own baggage to deal with.
Furthermore, a friend lent me the Liturgical Year. To read the writings in there the explanantions of our Faith is so awsome, so grand. I can not find the adjective that does justice to the love these Saints had for our Lord. If I could just have a scintilla of their faith and love I could move mountains.
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You know it is true. As we go further into our Faith we have fewer and fewer persons in our life. I do find myself whittling away persons in my life that are not of the faith and further more have never shown any interest in it. I do not need them and I do not need their baggage that surrounds them. Heck I have enough of my own baggage to deal with.
Furthermore, a friend lent me the Liturgical Year. To read the writings in there the explanantions of our Faith is so awsome, so grand. I can not find the adjective that does justice to the love these Saints had for our Lord. If I could just have a scintilla of their faith and love I could move mountains.
Quite right, Dawn.
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Furthermore, a friend lent me the Liturgical Year. To read the writings in there the explanations of our Faith is so awesome, so grand. I can not find the adjective that does justice to the love these Saints had for our Lord. If I could just have a scintilla of their faith and love I could move mountains.
Dawn,
Can I get an author on the book you're :reading:?
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Dom Prosper Gueranger, you know the set, I was wrong to say "a book"
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Such a wonderful post, Dawn!
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Thanks Dawn, good to "see" you back here!!
a good primer, no doubt for a cultic americanist heretic friends here.....and the neocons likely lurking...
aye. And for the kind of people who give seminars on how to "win friends and influence people."
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Thanks Dawn, good to "see" you back here!!
a good primer, no doubt for a cultic americanist heretic friends here.....and the neocons likely lurking...
aye. And for the kind of people who give seminars on how to "win friends and influence people."
Belloc was so subtle. :rolleyes:
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How does one handle the flip-side of this Dawn?
Over 35 years I've seen Traditionalist parents that separated themselves and their children from the world to such an extent that they produced adults not capable, willing or comfortable with going to work and earning a living alongside secular people. Not all, but it is an unmistakeable trend.
Telesphorus above, for example, is a 35 year old man who is highly intelligent, good with maths to a University degree level, joint first in his class exams, but he cannot secure a job and therefore is incapable of supporting a family, much though he would like to have one.
In a posting in March 2011 he laid some of the blame for his predicament on his parents who did not prepare him well as a child. In the same mammoth thread (240 pages) he said that while he was quite capable of teaching Maths, no school would offer him a job where he would not have to compromise his principled stand for the faith.
That is a REAL problem and he is one of MANY examples, albeit a particularly extreme example.
I'm not the first Traditionalist to point this out about the more zealous and scrupulous Trads. High ideals yes, but statistically poor results when it comes to their children keeping the faith and continuing to go to mass or even having many children. Little House on the Prairie living is not sustainable past one or two generations given the nature of the economy today.
The Amish have million dollar farms, and stable supportive communities, but Trads rarely do. Within a generation they have usually eaten their seed corn.
Typically, what happens is that the children either rebel/lapse and go out and grab the world with both hands and suck it as deep into their lungs as possible, since they are hungry for the fruits forbidden to them, or, scared of the bogeyman they follow their parent's philosophy but are then long term unemployed or struggle economically in low wage jobs because of a fear, dislike, disdain and despair for the world around them. The world which practically speaking they must be in, but try not to be of.
So where is the balance to be struck? Even if you sit in your mother's basement in Cincinnati, you still have to interact with the world, charm middle-aged Puerto Ricans fathers, etc, if you want to progress through life and attain your stated goals. That takes a certain degree of street smarts, socialisation, common-sense and emotional intelligence, skills that people exposed to the world tend to have far more often than those brought up hidden away from the evils of the world.
Yes of course one can meet worldlings in the business world who are addicted to money and possessions as ends in themselves. I meet them all the time as well as some very nice and unworldly people in powerful jobs. You can also come across a great deal of worldliness, smutty talk, lust, scandal working on a British Construction site or at the welfare office or local 7-Eleven.
God grants people the graces to reject the stupid and destructive aspects of materialism and worldliness while still being able to enjoy a fillet steak and live in a decent house in a safe neighbourhood. Otherwise well off Trads would simply lapse and become worldlings and hedonists and I have not personally seen that as a noticeable trend.
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Those of us who are parents have a particular obligation to make sure that our children do not have bad companions, and that we do not give them scandal by associating with those who are unrepentant sinners who are hostile to the truths of the Holy Faith. It is better for there to be a little estrangement, yes, even from parents and brothers and sisters and other relatives, in this passing, mortal vale of tears than an unhappy reunion with them in Hell for all eternity.
Totally true. Thank you for an excellent post and a wise reminder.
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First of all, my parents sent me to school. A very bad environment. One that cost me a lot of time, energy, and was a very bad moral and spiritual influence.
Full of the sort of people who have contempt and scorn for religiosity, who have anti-Catholic values.
I believe firmly in homeschooling because I believe it's far superior to sending one's children into a hostile environment.
Secondly, I never said I couldn't take a teaching job because it would compromise my principles.
I get rejected as a teacher because of fakes like ggreg who don't like people who have superior knowledge to them and prefer to send children to public schools, and who believe and spread false accusations and statements about people they don't like.
Now the simple fact is Catholics need to follow the guidance of saints, not of "cold calling" seminar phonies who are publicly admit to planning to apostasize.
If BALANCE on this forum means balancing a virtual apostates's pretending to conduct some sort of financial self-help seminar with the advice of saints, balancing someone who mocks the resistance and pretends there are no serious theological issues, then the person who wants the BALANCE is showing signs of IMBALANCE.
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First of all, my parents sent me to school. A very bad environment. One that cost me a lot of time, energy, and was a very bad moral and spiritual influence.
Many Catholics go to school and still keep their faith and function in the world. Hardly any turn out in your predicament.
I believe firmly in homeschooling because I believe it's far superior to sending one's children into a hostile environment.
Academic in your case. You have no children.
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Good post! What, then, are we to do when godless people find their way into our lives? Cast them out?
I imagine that first generation of Christians to be in many predicaments. You would have slaves in households, merchants, farmers, of course--basically all different kinds of people. And I imagine them to be surrounded by non-believers. I can picture them trying to covertly maintain their faith when they could (to avoid detection), but I can also imagine a moment where one house slave's Christian faith is discovered by another pagan house slave--an associate of the first slave for years.
Then, of course, when it came down to it, the Christian would offer testimony and talk about Christ, leading to either persecution or conversion.
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Many Catholics go to school and still keep their faith and function in the world. Hardly any turn out in your predicament.
Many people lose their souls in school, which is the point of St. Alphonsus commentary, that bad companions and associations are deadly for spiritual life.
Now, seeing as you directly violate the traditional advice of the Church in sending children to secular state schools, it appears to me that your opinions on these matters have nothing to do with Catholicism and it is bad faith for you to discuss this topic.
Academic in your case. You have no children.
I would never willingly expose children to a public school environment - especially in the world today, and no serious traditional Catholic with any choice at all would do so.
Homeschooling is definitely superior. You don't have to be in a situation to know what is best in a situation. I have no doubt that if the money my parents had spent on school had been spent in other ways on my education that I would have had a far superior education.
Certainly having older siblings helping to teach is also a huge advantage. I certainly helped my brother a great deal in developing his intellect.
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Thanks Dawn, good to "see" you back here!!
a good primer, no doubt for a cultic americanist heretic friends here.....and the neocons likely lurking...
Quite slithery
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Good post! What, then, are we to do when godless people find their way into our lives? Cast them out?
I imagine that first generation of Christians to be in many predicaments. You would have slaves in households, merchants, farmers, of course--basically all different kinds of people. And I imagine them to be surrounded by non-believers. I can picture them trying to covertly maintain their faith when they could (to avoid detection), but I can also imagine a moment where one house slave's Christian faith is discovered by another pagan house slave--an associate of the first slave for years.
Then, of course, when it came down to it, the Christian would offer testimony and talk about Christ, leading to either persecution or conversion.
This meme about the early Christians being somehow "open to the world" is something I notice in several places now: it almost seems as if certain people with an agenda are comparing notes.
It is incredibly stupid, since the early Christians were hated and persecuted for refusing to participate fully in pagan society.
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St. Alphonsus against those who say the schools are not damaging because some people get through okay.
This is "BALANCE"
Hundreds of pages on the doctrinal basis for the resistance, versus someone who says
"it's a figment of their imagination" so they can "feel special"
These are not comments made in good faith by a believing Catholic.
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Deliberately embracing the world is unnecessarily placing the salvation of your children and yourself in danger. It's a spiritual danger that should never be embraced with a laugh or on a dare or as a lark.
Let's not forget that these are not ordinary times though. The novus ordo vatican wants us to embrace the world and be the yeast in its bread. That's a good way to completely neutralize yourself. And in today's world, the public schools are spiritually superior to the novus ordo schools.
Ggreg has a lot of good advice but I think I'd rather have my children struggle with finding a job than be cast into the fires of Hell because they embraced the world so completely that they became one with the world.
Trad Catholics can always grow up to be entrepreneurs - large scale or small.
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It is incredibly stupid, since the early Christians were hated and persecuted for refusing to participate fully in pagan society.
Indeed. They must have all been unemployed and living on thistles and briars for their sustenance.
Except for the tax collector, of course. He somehow gets a pass for working in society. But no one else!
Stupid indeed.
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Ggreg has a lot of good advice
I swear I think sometimes when you scratch a trad you get someone who is still recovering from years of listening to Rush Limbaugh.
That's the real problem here:
We have in this thread the advice of a saint contrasted to the personal insults from someone who sounds like an infomercial narrator, who is not a serious Catholic.
And Catholics have allowed themselves to be programmed to look up to and accept the insidious values of these sorts of people, who show contempt for religious people.
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I think I'd rather have my children struggle with finding a job than be cast into the fires of Hell because they embraced the world so completely that they became one with the world.
Trad Catholics can always grow up to be entrepreneurs - large scale or small.
I'm somewhat on the same page. Good career and lots of Hell potential vs less Hell potential and a possibly good career.
It's a gamble that an entire generation seems to be taking this early century. Can you blame folks?
On another note, the first Americans schooled at home. So this is not new territory.
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Indeed. They must have all been unemployed and living on thistles and briars for their sustenance.
Except for the tax collector, of course. He somehow gets a pass for working in society. But no one else!
Stupid indeed.
Yes, you are very stupid if you think St. Matthew kept collecting taxes after he became an apostle.
You are also stupid to think that being rejected and persecuted for your beliefs is what these liberals are talking about. They're talking about the opposite.
These people, the people at FE who come here to repeatedly attack my reputation have an agenda of anti-Catholicism. of anti-Traditionalism.
An admitted agenda. They continually berate and insult traditional Catholics and brush aside the Church's condemnations of their stated beliefs and practices.
These people have an agenda, but the agenda of the dull and petty people here is to get some kicks in on me because I make them feel stupid.
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Ggreg has a lot of good advice
We have in this thread the advice of a saint contrasted to the personal insults from someone who sounds like an infomercial narrator, who is not a serious Catholic..
It is funny how the guy who throws the most insults this week is complaining about them.
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It is funny how the guy who throws the most insults this week is complaining about them.
I bump a thread of a saints commentary here and the response is a long screed about my personal life from someone who just re-confirmed he plans to no longer be Catholic if John Paul II is canonized.
Now, petty people who can't handle being criticized or downrated seem to get satisfaction in the presence of such abusive people.
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Little House on the Prairie living is not sustainable past one or two generations given the nature of the economy today.
Out of curiosity ggreg, what qualifies you to make this statement? Do you have experience in this? Do you know people who live a "little house on the prairie" lifestyle?
My personal experiences indicate to me that you are wrong. I know plenty of people who live largely off the land. The wife and children are strong and capable to help with food production, and the husband works his trade from home. Or he farms. They live lives of simplicity, which I find very desireable. Sure, they will not have extra money at their leisure, or fancy toys and multiple vehicles. Which is just as well. Mammon corrupts a soul.
And could you please stop comparing traditional Catholics who live a different lifestyle than you to the Amish? It's insulting, off-base, and unneccessary.
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Yes I do.
They live on land given to them by their parents and the two brothers that use to share the plot have now fallen out and refuse to speak to each other over a property dispute. One has a job the other is long term unemployed. The father has disowned and disinherited the brother with the job and it is not the first or even the second such incidence; I have seen. I have seen this repeated.
The brother without the job has taken the side of the father (a home-alone nutter), for the obvious reason that inheriting $150,000 and seeing his brother cut out of any inheritance ($75k more for him) is a very attractive temptation. That is his retirement money, without which he would be living on welfare payments until he died.
Two of the sisters lapsed because they father went super zealot in their teens. They've been disinherited long ago.
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Yes, you are very stupid …
You are also stupid to think…
These people have an agenda, but the agenda of the dull and petty people here is to get some kicks in on me because I make them feel stupid.
Getting kicks? Definitely.
I'd say you definitely have a reputation.
But please refrain from playing some victim card, and own up to being an ass. It happens to most grown men. Just recover and cool off.
As far as agenda, my only purpose on Catholic forums is to talk about things with Catholic people because I'm Catholic. But I'm not going to just sit there when I see someone acting like a jerk to someone else. It bogs down normal conversation, but oh well.
Be nice.
As far as Greg--I'll state his name since you seem unable--perhaps you should be encouraging him to pursue the faith, instead of this bit of nastiness you are so used to.
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But please refrain from playing some victim card, and own up to being an ass. It happens to most grown men. Just recover and cool off.
I'm pretty sure the people who slander me here on these forums, who have participated, would run like the filth throwing macaques if they had to confront me in person.
As far as agenda, my only purpose on Catholic forums is to talk about things with Catholic people because I'm Catholic. But I'm not going to just sit there when I see someone acting like a jerk to someone else. It bogs down normal conversation, but oh well.
No but, right now you want to but into conversations to sound important.
As far as Greg--I'll state his name since you seem unable--perhaps you should be encouraging him to pursue the faith, instead of this bit of nastiness you are so used to.
I suggest if you want to ggreg to pursue the Faith you criticize his outrageous statements rather than defend them against just criticism.
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Two of the sisters lapsed because they father went super zealot in their teens. They've been disinherited long ago.
But you lapsed without having to go through any of that.
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Yes I do.
They live on land given to them by their parents and the two brothers that use to share the plot have now fallen out and refuse to speak to each other over a property dispute. One has a job the other is long term unemployed. The father has disowned and disinherited the brother with the job and it is not the first or even the second such incidence; I have seen. I have seen this repeated.
The brother without the job has taken the side of the father (a home-alone nutter), for the obvious reason that inheriting $150,000 and seeing his brother cut out of any inheritance ($75k more for him) is a very attractive temptation. That is his retirement money, without which he would be living on welfare payments until he died.
Two of the sisters lapsed because they father went super zealot in their teens. They've been disinherited long ago.
ggreg, that can happen in any setting, whether it be agrarian, city, suburb, exurb, etc. So why single out the agrarian?
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I'm going to take this "living off the land" discussion to another thread. I'd hate to derail this one!
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But please refrain from playing some victim card, and own up to being an ass. It happens to most grown men. Just recover and cool off.
I'm pretty sure the people who slander me here on these forums, who have participated, would run like the filth throwing macaques if they had to confront me in person.
As far as agenda, my only purpose on Catholic forums is to talk about things with Catholic people because I'm Catholic. But I'm not going to just sit there when I see someone acting like a jerk to someone else. It bogs down normal conversation, but oh well.
No but, right now you want to but into conversations to sound important.
As far as Greg--I'll state his name since you seem unable--perhaps you should be encouraging him to pursue the faith, instead of this bit of nastiness you are so used to.
I suggest if you want to ggreg to pursue the Faith you criticize his outrageous statements rather than defend them against just criticism.
Oh! I forgot! This is the Tele forum! Where we come to read Tele's 8 daily posts--an exclusive club where only Tele can decide who's relevant!
You are too much fun. I wholeheartedly agree that a meeting in person would be very eventful.
I had as much right as you to enter this public forum discussion and contribute my early-Christian scenario. You responded in kind and implied that early Christians were never employed by or around pagans. I, in so many words, told you that you were unrealistic.
In regards to Greg, the man is not above being wrong. But I think his hypothetical suggestions could be answered more rationally and charitably, rather than with vile insults sandwiched in with whatever you're saying. Sniping with subtle and indirect posts is also slippery and unconscious.
I am hoping that I am encouraging Greg in the faith by showing him I'm not a jerk, and defending him from unreasonable nasty comments. Showing a fellow Catholic that you don't have to be a snot to remain Catholic seems to be necessary in these latest threads. Your personality drives most sane people away from any cause you support.
I'd say this thread's theme really correlates with this discussion.
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I'm not the first Traditionalist to point this out about the more zealous and scrupulous Trads. High ideals yes, but statistically poor results when it comes to their children keeping the faith and continuing to go to mass or even having many children. Little House on the Prairie living is not sustainable past one or two generations given the nature of the economy today.
The Amish have million dollar farms, and stable supportive communities, but Trads rarely do. Within a generation they have usually eaten their seed corn.
Typically, what happens is that the children either rebel/lapse and go out and grab the world with both hands and suck it as deep into their lungs as possible, since they are hungry for the fruits forbidden to them, or, scared of the bogeyman they follow their parent's philosophy but are then long term unemployed or struggle economically in low wage jobs because of a fear, dislike, disdain and despair for the world around them. The world which practically speaking they must be in, but try not to be of.
I am more preoccupied with the first consequence of over protecting our children. I have indeed seen the trend as well, and a good number of children that have been too hidden from the evils of the world, do end up rebelling and leaving the Faith. I would be immensely more worried about my children leaving the Faith, than them not becoming wealthy in terms of money and living off welfare. Although, this is also not desirable.
There must be a balance here. When I think of the "Little House on the Prairie living" I imagine protestant puritans and not Catholics. I am seeing a trend here as well that Catholicism gets mixed up with puritans ideas. Catholics should be IN the world. This is NOT TO SAY, that Catholics should necessarily live in the cities or near metropolis. They can also live in rural areas and be farmers. Nothing wrong with that, especially nowadays that cities are hostile to large families but the decision of living rural should not be based on HIDING ourselves and our children from the world. Where would be the Catholic presence in the world if we run from it? how could we evangelize, for example?
We are not to run from the world but fight it. It is spiritual warfare. We must educate our children to detest sin and yes, avoid it, when they can, but not to isolate themselves to the point of losing common sense and perception of social reality. Our children must be soldiers of Christ. That cannot happen if they are left ignorant of the cold realities of this world. They must be prepared to fight a well known enemy. There is no way our Catholic civilization had ever happened if we were to become isolated as the Amish.
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What about the successful results of zealous trads?
Are we going to hear about that?
The idea that secular schooled children are likely to be more Catholic than those who are homeschooled by truly believing Catholic parents is highly offensive.
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Two of the sisters lapsed because they father went super zealot in their teens. They've been disinherited long ago.
But you lapsed without having to go through any of that.
When did I lapse? I've always gone to mass.
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When did I lapse? I've always gone to mass.
Going to mass isn't equivalent to being Catholic. Your posts and positions prove you do not hold to Catholic doctrine.
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There must be a balance here. When I think of the "Little House on the Prairie living" I imagine protestant puritans and not Catholics.
Whether you think of Laura Ingalls Wilder's denomination or not is besides the point. "Little House on the Prairie" is a disparaging term. Catholicism has long had pro-agrarian movements and it was widely encouraged for Catholics to settle in the prairies of the USA. And they lived in little houses and had very large families, they lived in Catholic communities sometimes with no secular school, only Catholic schools and living almost completely among Catholics.
So the idea that there is something non-Catholic about rural settlement of Catholics in the late 19th Century is frankly rather peculiar.
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Ggreg has a lot of good advice
I swear I think sometimes when you scratch a trad you get someone who is still recovering from years of listening to Rush Limbaugh.
That's the real problem here:
We have in this thread the advice of a saint contrasted to the personal insults from someone who sounds like an infomercial narrator, who is not a serious Catholic.
And Catholics have allowed themselves to be programmed to look up to and accept the insidious values of these sorts of people, who show contempt for religious people.
Tele,
From the perspective of a worldling, Ggreg's advice is spot on. That's what I meant by that.
And in dollar and cents, it's not bad advice either.
Ggreg is pretty good at point out secular pitfalls too!
I get the fact that he seems to insult Catholicism so we're on the same page.
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Yes I do.
They live on land given to them by their parents and the two brothers that use to share the plot have now fallen out and refuse to speak to each other over a property dispute. One has a job the other is long term unemployed. The father has disowned and disinherited the brother with the job and it is not the first or even the second such incidence; I have seen. I have seen this repeated.
The brother without the job has taken the side of the father (a home-alone nutter), for the obvious reason that inheriting $150,000 and seeing his brother cut out of any inheritance ($75k more for him) is a very attractive temptation. That is his retirement money, without which he would be living on welfare payments until he died.
Two of the sisters lapsed because they father went super zealot in their teens. They've been disinherited long ago.
ggreg, that can happen in any setting, whether it be agrarian, city, suburb, exurb, etc. So why single out the agrarian?
I'm not singling it out but it is the lifestyle that people suggesting "unworldliness" recommend. Some people make it work for them; good for them. Whatever works is good. But; consider:
1. If the SSPX, SV Chapel, Transalpine Redemptorists let you down and move to another location or your local chapel/priest goes off the rails then it is hard and expensive to move from an agrarian life to another location. Selling the farm takes a long time and a long time to establish yourself elsewhere and get back to a cycle of production.
2. The agrarian economy is a small part of the economy and one of the hardest ones to make money in. In the UK farmers are committing ѕυιcιdє more than any other demographic and land is very expensive so few British Trad couples could even dream of owning a small farm. You either inherit it or you won't have it. By contrast in a developed economy, MOST of the jobs are urban jobs.
3. If you have your own job and income from a regular job or trade then you are not beholden to your parents and can make your own decisions as an adult. If you dad is a loony like Hutton Gibson, the few hundred K he can leave you is not lifechanging. For someone inheriting a farm it is. It means family disputes have more at stake and people can be pressured into "agreeing" with the partiarch.
4. Farming is bloody hard work and not without dangers. You can devote more time to your family as a suburban office worker than you can as a person owning and running a smallholiding.
5. Lots of idealistic Trads are naive dreamers and underestimate the hard work and long hours and sick animals and failed crops, cashflow problems, risk of injury, wildfires, damaged backs that can put them out of action in their 40s and 50s. I knew a Trad family in Australia who this happened to father lost his health while still young. In my estimation for many of those wannabe farmers it would be more prudent to live in the burbs and get an office job. Only if you've grown up around agriculture and have family connections, extra hands at harvest, and a full appreciation of the risks should you give any serious consideration to making a large proportion of your income from agriculture. Making small holdings pay is notoriously difficult. Look on the internet at people who have written about their experiences.
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I don't even like mowing my yard anymore.
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To separate ourselves from the world and to avoid worldlings doesn't require that we move out to the wilderness. In a general manner, separating ourselves physically by relocating to an isolated area is a tough thing to pull off. We can continue to work and live in our suburban home but do take the following actions:
(1) We can first get rid of TV (this should be first on the list of things to get rid of).
(2) We can refrain from buying electronic games for our children.
(3) We can avoid spending too much time at public arenas like bowling alleys, pool halls, and even limit our trips to the movie theatre.
(4) We can refuse to dress like the world does and encourage modesty in our children.
(5) We can stop watching sports altogether. And stop enrolling out kids in pee wee sports.
(6) We can refuse to partake in any political charades (i.e., voting for republicans or voting for democrats)
(7) The most obvious one - never ASSIST at a novus ordo church.
The above is all negative actions that we can take.
Positive actions?
(1) Marry a Traditional Catholic (or else doing all the above will be one huge challenge!)
(2) Live within your means.
(3) Spend your evenings reading Catholic books, or classic literature, discussing this material with your spouse.
(4) Engage in home improvement projects (replacement activity for all the TV you won't be watching :smile:)
(5) Hold a family rosary on a regular basis.
(6) Pray for the worldlings.
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To separate ourselves from the world and to avoid worldlings doesn't require that we move out to the wilderness.
We can first get rid of TV (this should be first on the list of things to get rid of).
We can refrain from buying electronic games for our children.
We can avoid spending too much time at public arenas like bowling alleys, pool halls, and even limit our trips to the movie theatre.
We can refuse to dress like the world does and encourage modesty in our children.
We can stop watching sports altogether.
We can refuse to partake in any political charades (i.e., voting for republicans or voting for democrats)
The above is all negative actions that we can take.
Avoid if at all possible sending children to secular schools for the years of their formation: pretty much a fundamental Catholic teaching.
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To separate ourselves from the world and to avoid worldlings doesn't require that we move out to the wilderness.
We can first get rid of TV (this should be first on the list of things to get rid of).
We can refrain from buying electronic games for our children.
We can avoid spending too much time at public arenas like bowling alleys, pool halls, and even limit our trips to the movie theatre.
We can refuse to dress like the world does and encourage modesty in our children.
We can stop watching sports altogether.
We can refuse to partake in any political charades (i.e., voting for republicans or voting for democrats)
The above is all negative actions that we can take.
I think we should homeschool our children, if possible. If there is not a traditional Catholic school available to us, that we can rely upon.
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I wanted to add:
(1) Cancel all secular subscriptions (the only exception being job related publications)
(2) Greatly limit your children's access to the internet - junk is found there in bucket fulls!
(3) Cancel all newspaper subscriptions (you can still buy an occasional Sunday paper for the coupons)
(4) Make a conscious choice to sanctify your home by means of Catholic devotions, sacramentals, etc., (most of us know this already but their could be new people who are sick and tired of the novus ordo lurking here for the first time.)
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Good suggestions, Captain! :dwarf:
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:soapbox:I tried escaping the corruption in the world by moving in with the Amish. Guess what?
Having no electric, no running water, doing everything the old-fashioned way taught me many valuable and practical life skills.
The one thing at which the Amish life failed was to make me holy. Why? A look in the mirror- no bigger than 5x8", never mounted upright or left reflection-side up on a flat surface- showed the source of sinfulness to be from within. In this life, we fight the stain of Original sin whether we live In a Manhattan penthouse or on an Amish farm.
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:soapbox:I tried escaping the corruption in the world by moving in with the Amish. Guess what?
Having no electric, no running water, doing everything the old-fashioned way taught me many valuable and practical life skills.
The one thing at which the Amish life failed was to make me holy. Why? A look in the mirror- no bigger than 5x8", never mounted upright or left reflection-side up on a flat surface- showed the source of sinfulness to be from within. In this life, we fight the stain of Original sin whether we live In a Manhattan penthouse or on an Amish farm.
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:soapbox:I tried escaping the corruption in the world by moving in with the Amish. Guess what?
Having no electric, no running water, doing everything the old-fashioned way taught me many valuable and practical life skills.
The one thing at which the Amish life failed was to make me holy. Why? A look in the mirror- no bigger than 5x8", never mounted upright or left reflection-side up on a flat surface- showed the source of sinfulness to be from within. In this life, we fight the stain of Original sin whether we live In a Manhattan penthouse or on an Amish farm.
You lived with the Amish for a while? Very interesting indeed!
Frances is right in that we must fight our own evil inclinations and, if separating yourself from worldlings sounds too harsh, call it keeping good company instead. We must remind ourselves that we were called from the world and that we will not be celebrated by the world because the world does not recognize us as its own.
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How does one handle the flip-side of this Dawn?
Over 35 years I've seen Traditionalist parents that separated themselves and their children from the world to such an extent that they produced adults not capable, willing or comfortable with going to work and earning a living alongside secular people. Not all, but it is an unmistakeable trend.
Consider me one of the ones you've seen whose parents kept me separated, but who has enjoyed an extremely successful, fun and profitable etc. career "out in that world" - more than one career actually - still am. Of course, things are much, much worse these days then when I was "out in the world".
As for the sheltering from the world producing unproductive children being "an unmistakeable trend", I disagree. There may be some, but those secular folks who have no faith and are unproductive members of society far outnumber many times over the sheltered trad.
Between the sheltered trad young adult and the faithless "exposed to the world" young adult - give me the sheltered trad every time.
I'm not the first Traditionalist to point this out about the more zealous and scrupulous Trads. High ideals yes, but statistically poor results when it comes to their children keeping the faith and continuing to go to mass or even having many children. Little House on the Prairie living is not sustainable past one or two generations given the nature of the economy today.
The Amish have million dollar farms, and stable supportive communities, but Trads rarely do. Within a generation they have usually eaten their seed corn.
The Amish are going to hell if they don't convert, so I would not use them and their ignorant pharisaical ways as an example of prosperity. They do not have the faith so their trials are not the trials of trads.
We all, young, old and everyone in between will be faced with trials and tribulations as we journey to our end, this truth is about the only "known" we can be sure of as relates to our personal future - when children lose the faith that they were raised to keep, it is of their own doing and always of their own free will. It is the children who *choose* to lose the faith, not the parent's fault for trying to raise them for heaven.
The devil doesn't have to work too hard on those without the faith, but he works the hardest on those who have the true faith and those who are trying to persevere in it - this is why trad children who were raised for heaven and separated from the world in their youth, fall away, not because their parents kept them separated from the world in their youth.
If they were raised away from the evil influences, then they should have learned how to avoid the same evil even when they go out in the world for work, dating, friends, marriage etc. - again, they were raised to know better, that is something the parents are to be praised for, something that will stand with the parents in their defense when they stand before the judgement seat of God.
And fwiw, Little House on the Prairie lifestyle, if you can do it, is one of the best imo.
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Great post, Stubborn.
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A friend once told me, " I used to have two philosophies on raising children, now I have 3 children and no philosophy!"
I was once a worldling, and committed the worst sins, Thank God there were Catholics who did not shut me out, but had patience and prayed for my conversion.
This is a tough issue that all Catholic families face. I have tried" all the above " raising my children. We have home schooled , Trad School, Public School, Threw out the TV, internet, made my daughters wear skirts,
Brought back the Tv, internet loosened up on my daughters...
I have seen many children fall away for the reasons Greg mentioned. For what it is worth ( I admit it is not much) this is what life has taught me.
Teach your Children to Love God
Teach them to be very humble, and meek, to be generous to everybody, be respectful to everybody, to love their neighbor ( especially the worldlings) to avoid sin at all costs, to never deny the faith. To answer a direct question with a direct answer. Of course to pray
I learned to show them the "world" (within reason) and talk about the good and the bad. I tried to "beat the street" by telling them what they will hear and see , before it was presented to them by "bad Companions" All of this is done usually after the rosary when discussing a catechism lesson or bible reading.
They need to know that you love them, and they need to see you sacrifice and suffer and persevere to make it real for them.
Your home must be a refuge of happiness, cleanliness, love....my children do have "worldling" friends, some of them are interested in becoming Catholic because of the light they see in my kids.(please pray for these children)
I try to teach them to choose their friends, to make the tough choice when it is presented to them, That God is always with us and nobody gets away with anything, if they fall off the horse? No problems dust yourself off , go to confession and get right back on. We all need to carry our cross, and that God never promised an easy life , but happiness in heaven.
The big one is " Don't worry what this or that person is doing , worry what you are doing. You are just dust and not better than anyone, it is only through the grace of God that you have the faith, always thank Him for it. Always pray " Not my will Lord, but your Will, please give me the strength to follow Your Will"
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Our task as parents is not to shield our children from the evil forces that threaten them, as this is impossible, but to form in the them the strength to combat evil effectively with all their hearts and throughout all their lives.
We must be realistic and perseverant.
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Our task as parents is not to shield our children from the evil forces that threaten them, as this is impossible,
Really? Do you have any authority for that statement?
"Thou art among unbelievers and destroyers, and thou dwellest among scorpions"--Ezech., ii. 6. Would you live in the midst of scorpions? You must then fly from scandalous friends, who, by their bad examples and words, poison your soul. "A man's enemies shall be they of his own household"--Matt., x. 36. Wicked friends that are very familiar and intimate to us, become the most pernicious enemies of our souls.
. . . .
Those of us who are parents have a particular obligation to make sure that our children do not have bad companions, and that we do not give them scandal by associating with those who are unrepentant sinners who are hostile to the truths of the Holy Faith. It is better for there to be a little estrangement, yes, even from parents and brothers and sisters and other relatives, in this passing, mortal vale of tears than an unhappy reunion with them in Hell for all eternity.
but to form in the them the strength to combat evil effectively with all their hearts and throughout all their lives.
We must be realistic
We should listen to the Doctors of the Church and ignore the unbelievers and destroyers who live among scorpions.
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Tele
Your not wrong, but not right either, this isn't a black and white issue. Raising children in the faith is a "finesse" issue that differs with each child.
Of course St Alphonsus is right, nobody is saying he isn't, but we must take him in context. I'm positive that he doesn't mean to shut "worldlings "out , as that also goes against the faith. We have to use balance and common sense.
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Tele
Your not wrong, but not right either
What isn't right?
but not right either, this isn't a black and white issue.
It is a black and white issue when we deal with those who defend public schooling, heap scorn on trads forming their own communities.
Raising children in the faith is a "finesse" issue that differs with each child.
Someone downrated the OP quoting St. Alphonsus. Parents need to properly educate their children, which requires adequate knowledge of the world, however, those who cast scorn on those who are protecting their children definitely show contempt for the practice of the Catholic Faith.
Of course St Alphonsus is right, nobody is saying he isn't,
Then what are they saying? Someone just it's not the task of parents to shield their children from the evil forces that threaten them. That can't be right.
but we must take him in context. I'm positive that he doesn't mean to shut "worldlings "out ,
What is the special context? We need to protect ourselves from enemies.
as that also goes against the faith. We have to use balance and common sense.
We don't balance the advice of doctors of the Church with the advice of liberals. Common sense? Sure. The Faith and its practice comes first.
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I'm happy to be downrated by the same sort of idiot that downrates St. Alphonsus.
Here is a sermon on the education of children:
http://traditionalcatholicsermons.org/index_files/StAlphonsus_SevenSundayAfterPentecost_OnTheEducationOfChildren.mp3
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Great indeed is the misfortune of the child that has vicious parents, who are incapable of forming their children in the fear of God, and who, when they see their children engaged in dangerous friendships and in quarrels, instead of correcting and chastising them, rather take compassion on them, and say: "What can be done? They are young; they must take their course."
Oh! What wicked maxims! What a cruel education! Do you hope that when your children grow up they shall become saints?
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Our task as parents is not to shield our children from the evil forces that threaten them, as this is impossible,
Really? Do you have any authority for that statement?
"Thou art among unbelievers and destroyers, and thou dwellest among scorpions"--Ezech., ii. 6. Would you live in the midst of scorpions? You must then fly from scandalous friends, who, by their bad examples and words, poison your soul. "A man's enemies shall be they of his own household"--Matt., x. 36. Wicked friends that are very familiar and intimate to us, become the most pernicious enemies of our souls.
. . . .
Those of us who are parents have a particular obligation to make sure that our children do not have bad companions, and that we do not give them scandal by associating with those who are unrepentant sinners who are hostile to the truths of the Holy Faith. It is better for there to be a little estrangement, yes, even from parents and brothers and sisters and other relatives, in this passing, mortal vale of tears than an unhappy reunion with them in Hell for all eternity.
but to form in the them the strength to combat evil effectively with all their hearts and throughout all their lives.
We must be realistic
We should listen to the Doctors of the Church and ignore the unbelievers and destroyers who live among scorpions.
You have, once again, misunderstood my statement, Telesphorus.
Pay attention: I am not saying that we should send our children to public schools, or allow them to participate in secular activities, or not being ever-vigilant of their companions. Of course, it is our duty to protect our children from worldly influences as much as we can and try to educate them in a holy environment, especially through our own example and dedication.
What I am saying is that the real protection comes from within. Comes from your soul. Comes from the understanding that this is a fallen world and our lives are in constant spiritual warfare. Our children need to be able to recognize our common Enemy and fight against it by not committing sins and remaining in state of grace. If this responsibility is not taught, the children will simply not learn how to deal with the world and will be consumed by it, one way or the other. They need to learn how to face the world and come out victorious. The victory is not in hiding. It is in recognizing the Evil one and fighting against it.
You simply cannot go and live in a bubble on in your mother's basement all your life. Or at least, this is NOT the future I'd like for my children.
Do not ask me what is my authority on this matter. I am simply stating my humble opinion in this forum. I am a mother and these issues are of great concern for me. I don't need to be "proving" my knowledge in here by citing quotes of Saints and Popes.
However, is it my understanding that you don't even have children?
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You have, once again, misunderstood my statement, Telesphorus.
No, I haven't. Address the post. What is your authority for this statement?
"Our task as parents is not to shield our children from the evil forces that threaten them, as this is impossible"
Pay attention: I am not saying that we should send our children to public schools, or allow them to participate in secular activities, or not being ever-vigilant of their companions.
I didn't say you said that.
What I am saying is that the real protection comes from within. Comes from your soul.
It comes from God's grace.
Comes from the understanding that this is a fallen world and our lives are in constant spiritual warfare. Our children need to be able to recognize our common Enemy and fight against it by not committing sins and remaining in state of grace. If this responsibility is not taught, the children will simply not learn how to deal with the world and will be consumed by it, one way or the other. They need to learn how to face the world and come out victorious. The victory is not in hiding. It is in recognizing the Evil one and fighting against it.
You said it is not the task of parents to shield their children from evil.
Do not ask me what is my authority on this matter. I am simply stating my humble opinion in this forum.
It is far from humble, you can be sure of that. People who downrate St. Alphonsus and uprate virtual apostates are not humble: yet we see this from so-called Catholics on this very thread. Why you would wish to align with those people is beyond my comprehension.
Statements are supposed to be justified. No one cares about your "humble opinion" Who do you think you are?
I am a mother and these issues are of great concern for me. I don't need to be "proving" my knowledge in here by citing quotes of Saints and Popes.
As a mother you don't have the task of shielding your children from the evil forces in the world? I'm glad my mother didn't think that way!
However, is it my understanding that you don't even have children?
And a Protestant would say that same thing about all Catholic priests who don't have children.
Why do you feel the need to throw everything but the kitchen sink, throw out all sorts of desperate ham-fisted things to defend an indefensible statement?
Learn to justify your statements or don't make them. That's obviously too much for a woman.
There have been people downrating St. Alphonsus. The sort of people who mock homeschooled children, Catholic families, send children to public school.
I didn't say you do those things. I asked you to justify your statement, and of course you utterly failed.
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Learn to justify your statements or don't make them. That's obviously too much for a woman.
Given that I am woman and therefore, unable to properly justify my statements, why do you bother yourself asking me to do it in the first place?
I am not deserving of your precious time, Telesphorus. Don't bother yourself with this woman.
Have a good day!
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Given that I am woman and therefore, unable to properly justify my statements, why do you bother yourself asking me to do it in the first place?
Good question. Why bother to engage someone who doesn't care much if her statements are justified? She will just "humbly" say whatever she wants because it "feels" right?
I am not deserving of your precious time, Telesphorus. Don't bother yourself with this woman.
lol, well we don't all deserve the good things we get, do we?
Have a good day!
And you too. And please do resolve to shield your children from evil.
Thank you.
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As a homeschooler of two of my children, I believe I can speak to this. When my son was twelve or thirteen, he met some worldlings from public school. Against my better judgment, my husband wanted him to take that road. Maybe if he hadn't, our son wouldn't be where he is today! They're like tomatoes in a greenhouse. They must develop good strong roots before they go out into the world. Tele is absolutely right!!!
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:dancing-banana:Catholics have always had to live "in the world." What distinguished them from worldlings was being "not OF the world." As conditions in the formerly Catholic world worsen, it becomes harder and harder to do. Reason? Catholics want to continue to enjoy the world's perks and side-benefits while remaining Catholic. A look into the lives of the saints and into Catholics past and present who live in predominantly anti-Catholic circuмstances shows us how to it. The problem is two-fold. 1. We are in denial of reality. Our world is no longer Catholic.
2. We are selfish, addicted to material comforts so we don't WANT to make the sacrifices necessary to the salvation of our souls. Our minds are vincibly warped, therefore, our wills follow.
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It's wild that those who live rural or plain are said to be isolated. Being at the home with plain families it AMAZED me how much in and out their was and how much they socialized with others! They spend time together having dinner, children playing, sometimes the men help one another with big projects, older women and unmarried young women go to houses with young mothers to clean and bake bread, other stop by with this and that, it's really silly to think they are isolated! That is besides the farm business and all the in and out for that!
Many have email but not regular internet. They have a family picture taken every year and mail out newsletter updates with their new pictures. They get lots of snail mail. Sunday at least one family is prepared to host visitors. It took me a while to be comfortable calling them and asking if we could come over but that is how they are. I STILL feel nervous doing it LOL!!! It's NOTHING like the the more "connected" folks. Seriously when was the last time most of us had dinner ten times with other families in the same calendar month? Five times? How many of us prepare on Sunday to invite visitors and singles at our chapel to our home or out to eat? These supposedly isolated folks who never use forums or FB are far more connected.
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What I am saying is that the real protection comes from within. Comes from your soul. Comes from the understanding that this is a fallen world and our lives are in constant spiritual warfare. Our children need to be able to recognize our common Enemy and fight against it by not committing sins and remaining in state of grace. If this responsibility is not taught, the children will simply not learn how to deal with the world and will be consumed by it, one way or the other. They need to learn how to face the world and come out victorious. The victory is not in hiding. It is in recognizing the Evil one and fighting against it.
We are not to set up our children to sin and protect them (and ourselves) from occasions of sin. The idea that children will not know how to deal with the world because they are supposedly "too sheltered" is ridiculous. No matter how much we work to protect them and ourselves it is still a sinful world.
You are confusing teaching children not to be naive and setting up children to sin.
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What I am saying is that the real protection comes from within. Comes from your soul. Comes from the understanding that this is a fallen world and our lives are in constant spiritual warfare. Our children need to be able to recognize our common Enemy and fight against it by not committing sins and remaining in state of grace. If this responsibility is not taught, the children will simply not learn how to deal with the world and will be consumed by it, one way or the other. They need to learn how to face the world and come out victorious. The victory is not in hiding. It is in recognizing the Evil one and fighting against it.
We are not to set up our children to sin and protect them (and ourselves) from occasions of sin. The idea that children will not know how to deal with the world because they are supposedly "too sheltered" is ridiculous. No matter how much we work to protect them and ourselves it is still a sinful world.
You are confusing teaching children not to be naive and setting up children to sin.
I never said we should "set up" our children to sin. Far from. I see once again, my words have been misunderstood. English is not my first language. It must be that my paragraph is written poorly or something since I am seriously being misunderstood and my words have been taken out of context.
You say: "No matter how much we work to protect them and ourselves it is still a sinful world". I say we must be prepared to recognize spiritual warfare and fight against sin and teach our children to do so. That's my whole point.
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Our task as parents is not to shield our children from the evil forces that threaten them, as this is impossible,
Really? Do you have any authority for that statement?
"Thou art among unbelievers and destroyers, and thou dwellest among scorpions"--Ezech., ii. 6. Would you live in the midst of scorpions? You must then fly from scandalous friends, who, by their bad examples and words, poison your soul. "A man's enemies shall be they of his own household"--Matt., x. 36. Wicked friends that are very familiar and intimate to us, become the most pernicious enemies of our souls.
. . . .
Those of us who are parents have a particular obligation to make sure that our children do not have bad companions, and that we do not give them scandal by associating with those who are unrepentant sinners who are hostile to the truths of the Holy Faith. It is better for there to be a little estrangement, yes, even from parents and brothers and sisters and other relatives, in this passing, mortal vale of tears than an unhappy reunion with them in Hell for all eternity.
but to form in the them the strength to combat evil effectively with all their hearts and throughout all their lives.
We must be realistic
We should listen to the Doctors of the Church and ignore the unbelievers and destroyers who live among scorpions.
You have, once again, misunderstood my statement, Telesphorus.
Pay attention: I am not saying that we should send our children to public schools, or allow them to participate in secular activities, or not being ever-vigilant of their companions. Of course, it is our duty to protect our children from worldly influences as much as we can and try to educate them in a holy environment, especially through our own example and dedication.
What I am saying is that the real protection comes from within. Comes from your soul. Comes from the understanding that this is a fallen world and our lives are in constant spiritual warfare. Our children need to be able to recognize our common Enemy and fight against it by not committing sins and remaining in state of grace. If this responsibility is not taught, the children will simply not learn how to deal with the world and will be consumed by it, one way or the other. They need to learn how to face the world and come out victorious. The victory is not in hiding. It is in recognizing the Evil one and fighting against it.
You simply cannot go and live in a bubble on in your mother's basement all your life. Or at least, this is NOT the future I'd like for my children.
Do not ask me what is my authority on this matter. I am simply stating my humble opinion in this forum. I am a mother and these issues are of great concern for me. I don't need to be "proving" my knowledge in here by citing quotes of Saints and Popes.
However, is it my understanding that you don't even have children?
Second language or not this is clearly against the idea of keeping children from evil environments.
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No. It is not. It's about preparing our children to deal with these evil environments, which they will eventually encounter regardless of how protective a parent you have been. Even if you do end up living in your mother's basement, you are not exent from sin.
I homeschool my children, I protect them from worldly influences, there is no even a tv in my house, I am ever vigilant of their companions and their surroundings, i supervise eberything they see and hear, but even so, I am not naive. I know that if I don't teach them how to say NO to sin once the opportunity arises, because it will arise, then I'm failing.
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If your child possesses a rancid soul, there's not much you can do to keep them from a sinful life because even if you locked them in the basemend, their very own heart would be filled with hate.
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Deliberately embracing the world is unnecessarily placing the salvation of your children and yourself in danger. It's a spiritual danger that should never be embraced with a laugh or on a dare or as a lark.
Let's not forget that these are not ordinary times though. The novus ordo vatican wants us to embrace the world and be the yeast in its bread. That's a good way to completely neutralize yourself. And in today's world, the public schools are spiritually superior to the novus ordo schools.
Ggreg has a lot of good advice but I think I'd rather have my children struggle with finding a job than be cast into the fires of Hell because they embraced the world so completely that they became one with the world.
Trad Catholics can always grow up to be entrepreneurs - large scale or small.
They can be good entrepreneurs but entrepreneurs must have strong social skills because who do you think your clients are? You would starve if you only served trads.
Social isolation can be very romanticized when considering the options. I think you have to realistic. I think you need a strong inner circle (family) but you are going to have some questionable people in your life. Think about the neighbor who invites you over for a BBQ. Are you not going to be friends with them when they are next door? I mean you might need them in a emergency. Everyone also has a relative or two that has poor choices. God still loves them and desires them to come to him. Are you going to stop talking to them or would it be better to keep them close to you in an effort to help them.
This is a good topic for debate because it is one I find myself confused on. I went to public school and I found the friends who went to catholic school were worse because they rebelled and they were surrounded by other people who only went to catholic school as a status thing. I would not send my child to public school now though however our schools are good at teaching trades that would come in handy that I can't teach them (carpentry, etc.)
I would love to homeschool my children and that is my goal but I worry about them not being thick skinned enough. I could care less if they don't learn how "to socialize" with other people because why would I want them to be like other people. I just feel that you can't isolate yourself so much or we become like the native Americans who can't function off the reservations because they only know "their" culture. I guess that is where you make "socializations" part of the curriculum of home schooling and you can select the environment.
Ideally you have to learn to live in this world (because that is where God put us) but desire not for it. You have to train your will of desire. Enter the Holy Ghost.
The whole thing is a mess.
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I would love to homeschool my children and that is my goal but I worry about them not being thick skinned enough. I could care less if they don't learn how "to socialize" with other people because why would I want them to be like other people. I just feel that you can't isolate yourself so much or we become like the native Americans who can't function off the reservations because they only know "their" culture. I guess that is where you make "socializations" part of the curriculum of home schooling and you can select the environment.
Ideally you have to learn to live in this world (because that is where God put us) but desire not for it. You have to train your will of desire. Enter the Holy Ghost.
The whole thing is a mess.
When children are sheltered in order to be raised in the faith, they *will* be different than the rest of the world because their upbringing should make them that way - but by the time they go out into the world, their spiritual suit of armor (which you helped build and fit), should be so thick that they can enter into their trials with a certain degree of confidence that the providence of Our Lord will help them in whatever endevour they pursue.
No matter what, the temptations will visit them to get them to remove the suit from themselves, if they keep their armor on, it'll only make the suit even stronger, if they remove it, they do so of their own free will and except for prayer, there is nothing you can do about it - but make no mistake, if they were the typical child, they have no real worries about socializing.
From the few "sheltered trads" that I have delt with career wise, they are usually among the pick of the crop, well mannered, polite, have a good sense of humor, dependable, often display a noticeable respect for authority, are quick learners and etc. and socialize as well as anyone.
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Let's not use the phraseology of our enemies.
"Isolated"
"sheltered"
No, we must refrain from using these words.
Catholics are to remain aloof from the world - it's only unusual now because most of the Catholic world has abandoned the faith.
A Traditional Catholic guy who went into construction would build whatever the paying customer wanted him to. This doesn't require being one with the other. All other skill sets are compatible.
Homeschooling? If you want to, you would first have to move out of that house that is probably above your means - no offense intended but many worldlings buy a house that they can "barely afford" if everything else "goes according to plans". You would be perfectly happy in a much smaller ranch house or even a manufactured home.
If you moved to a trailor house, could you afford to home school? Modest homes can be Catholic treasures too!
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:drillsergeant: :ready-to-eat: :ready-to-eat: :ready-to-eat: :ready-to-eat: :ready-to-eat: :ready-to-eat: :ready-to-eat: :ready-to-eat: :ready-to-eat: :ready-to-eat: :ready-to-eat: :ready-to-eat::ready-to-eat::dancing-banana: :geezer:
In 1981 I helped a family of 16 move OUT of a trailer home. There were 13 children, the youngest two weeks old, and Grandpa. The notion of even attempting to home school is ludicrous. They moved into a two story home with four bedrooms. It seemed like a palace in comparison.