Author Topic: On seperating ourselves from "Worldlings" (Read 6844 times)

Caraffa · « **Reply #30 on:** August 21, 2013, 01:24:13 PM »

Quote from: ggreg

Yes I do.

They live on land given to them by their parents and the two brothers that use to share the plot have now fallen out and refuse to speak to each other over a property dispute. One has a job the other is long term unemployed. The father has disowned and disinherited the brother with the job and it is not the first or even the second such incidence; I have seen. I have seen this repeated.

The brother without the job has taken the side of the father (a home-alone nutter), for the obvious reason that inheriting $150,000 and seeing his brother cut out of any inheritance ($75k more for him) is a very attractive temptation. That is his retirement money, without which he would be living on welfare payments until he died.

Two of the sisters lapsed because they father went super zealot in their teens. They've been disinherited long ago.

ggreg, that can happen in any setting, whether it be agrarian, city, suburb, exurb, etc. So why single out the agrarian?

jen51 · « **Reply #31 on:** August 21, 2013, 01:28:14 PM »

I'm going to take this "living off the land" discussion to another thread. I'd hate to derail this one!

LaramieHirsch · « **Reply #32 on:** August 21, 2013, 01:49:01 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote from: LaramieHirsch
But please refrain from playing some victim card, and own up to being an ass. It happens to most grown men. Just recover and cool off.

I'm pretty sure the people who slander me here on these forums, who have participated, would run like the filth throwing macaques if they had to confront me in person.

Quote
As far as agenda, my only purpose on Catholic forums is to talk about things with Catholic people because I'm Catholic. But I'm not going to just sit there when I see someone acting like a jerk to someone else. It bogs down normal conversation, but oh well.

No but, right now you want to but into conversations to sound important.

Quote
As far as Greg--I'll state his name since you seem unable--perhaps you should be encouraging him to pursue the faith, instead of this bit of nastiness you are so used to.

I suggest if you want to ggreg to pursue the Faith you criticize his outrageous statements rather than defend them against just criticism.

Oh! I forgot! This is the Tele forum! Where we come to read Tele's 8 daily posts--an exclusive club where only Tele can decide who's relevant!

You are too much fun. I wholeheartedly agree that a meeting in person would be very eventful.

I had as much right as you to enter this public forum discussion and contribute my early-Christian scenario. You responded in kind and implied that early Christians were never employed by or around pagans. I, in so many words, told you that you were unrealistic.

In regards to Greg, the man is not above being wrong. But I think his hypothetical suggestions could be answered more rationally and charitably, rather than with vile insults sandwiched in with whatever you're saying. Sniping with subtle and indirect posts is also slippery and unconscious.

I am hoping that I am encouraging Greg in the faith by showing him I'm not a jerk, and defending him from unreasonable nasty comments. Showing a fellow Catholic that you don't have to be a snot to remain Catholic seems to be necessary in these latest threads. Your personality drives most sane people away from any cause you support.

I'd say this thread's theme really correlates with this discussion.

Cantarella · « **Reply #33 on:** August 21, 2013, 01:54:53 PM »

Quote from: ggreg

I'm not the first Traditionalist to point this out about the more zealous and scrupulous Trads. High ideals yes, but statistically poor results when it comes to their children keeping the faith and continuing to go to mass or even having many children. Little House on the Prairie living is not sustainable past one or two generations given the nature of the economy today.

The Amish have million dollar farms, and stable supportive communities, but Trads rarely do. Within a generation they have usually eaten their seed corn.

Typically, what happens is that the children either rebel/lapse and go out and grab the world with both hands and suck it as deep into their lungs as possible, since they are hungry for the fruits forbidden to them, or, scared of the bogeyman they follow their parent's philosophy but are then long term unemployed or struggle economically in low wage jobs because of a fear, dislike, disdain and despair for the world around them. The world which practically speaking they must be in, but try not to be of.

I am more preoccupied with the first consequence of over protecting our children. I have indeed seen the trend as well, and a good number of children that have been too hidden from the evils of the world, do end up rebelling and leaving the Faith. I would be immensely more worried about my children leaving the Faith, than them not becoming wealthy in terms of money and living off welfare. Although, this is also not desirable.

There must be a balance here. When I think of the "Little House on the Prairie living" I imagine protestant puritans and not Catholics. I am seeing a trend here as well that Catholicism gets mixed up with puritans ideas. Catholics should be IN the world. This is NOT TO SAY, that Catholics should necessarily live in the cities or near metropolis. They can also live in rural areas and be farmers. Nothing wrong with that, especially nowadays that cities are hostile to large families but the decision of living rural should not be based on HIDING ourselves and our children from the world. Where would be the Catholic presence in the world if we run from it? how could we evangelize, for example?

We are not to run from the world but fight it. It is spiritual warfare. We must educate our children to detest sin and yes, avoid it, when they can, but not to isolate themselves to the point of losing common sense and perception of social reality. Our children must be soldiers of Christ. That cannot happen if they are left ignorant of the cold realities of this world. They must be prepared to fight a well known enemy. There is no way our Catholic civilization had ever happened if we were to become isolated as the Amish.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #34 on:** August 21, 2013, 01:59:15 PM »

What about the successful results of zealous trads?

Are we going to hear about that?

The idea that secular schooled children are likely to be more Catholic than those who are homeschooled by truly believing Catholic parents is highly offensive.

ggreg · « **Reply #35 on:** August 21, 2013, 01:59:42 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote from: ggreg
Two of the sisters lapsed because they father went super zealot in their teens. They've been disinherited long ago.

But you lapsed without having to go through any of that.

When did I lapse? I've always gone to mass.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #36 on:** August 21, 2013, 02:03:47 PM »

Quote from: ggreg

When did I lapse? I've always gone to mass.

Going to mass isn't equivalent to being Catholic. Your posts and positions prove you do not hold to Catholic doctrine.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #37 on:** August 21, 2013, 02:07:05 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella

There must be a balance here. When I think of the "Little House on the Prairie living" I imagine protestant puritans and not Catholics.

Whether you think of Laura Ingalls Wilder's denomination or not is besides the point. "Little House on the Prairie" is a disparaging term. Catholicism has long had pro-agrarian movements and it was widely encouraged for Catholics to settle in the prairies of the USA. And they lived in little houses and had very large families, they lived in Catholic communities sometimes with no secular school, only Catholic schools and living almost completely among Catholics.

So the idea that there is something non-Catholic about rural settlement of Catholics in the late 19th Century is frankly rather peculiar.

Capt McQuigg · « **Reply #38 on:** August 21, 2013, 02:20:43 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote from: Capt McQuigg
Ggreg has a lot of good advice

I swear I think sometimes when you scratch a trad you get someone who is still recovering from years of listening to Rush Limbaugh.

That's the real problem here:

We have in this thread the advice of a saint contrasted to the personal insults from someone who sounds like an infomercial narrator, who is not a serious Catholic.

And Catholics have allowed themselves to be programmed to look up to and accept the insidious values of these sorts of people, who show contempt for religious people.

Tele,

From the perspective of a worldling, Ggreg's advice is spot on. That's what I meant by that.

And in dollar and cents, it's not bad advice either.

Ggreg is pretty good at point out secular pitfalls too!

I get the fact that he seems to insult Catholicism so we're on the same page.

ggreg · « **Reply #39 on:** August 21, 2013, 02:22:39 PM »

Quote from: Caraffa

Quote from: ggreg
Yes I do.

They live on land given to them by their parents and the two brothers that use to share the plot have now fallen out and refuse to speak to each other over a property dispute. One has a job the other is long term unemployed. The father has disowned and disinherited the brother with the job and it is not the first or even the second such incidence; I have seen. I have seen this repeated.

The brother without the job has taken the side of the father (a home-alone nutter), for the obvious reason that inheriting $150,000 and seeing his brother cut out of any inheritance ($75k more for him) is a very attractive temptation. That is his retirement money, without which he would be living on welfare payments until he died.

Two of the sisters lapsed because they father went super zealot in their teens. They've been disinherited long ago.

ggreg, that can happen in any setting, whether it be agrarian, city, suburb, exurb, etc. So why single out the agrarian?

I'm not singling it out but it is the lifestyle that people suggesting "unworldliness" recommend. Some people make it work for them; good for them. Whatever works is good. But; consider:

1. If the SSPX, SV Chapel, Transalpine Redemptorists let you down and move to another location or your local chapel/priest goes off the rails then it is hard and expensive to move from an agrarian life to another location. Selling the farm takes a long time and a long time to establish yourself elsewhere and get back to a cycle of production.

2. The agrarian economy is a small part of the economy and one of the hardest ones to make money in. In the UK farmers are committing ѕυιcιdє more than any other demographic and land is very expensive so few British Trad couples could even dream of owning a small farm. You either inherit it or you won't have it. By contrast in a developed economy, MOST of the jobs are urban jobs.

3. If you have your own job and income from a regular job or trade then you are not beholden to your parents and can make your own decisions as an adult. If you dad is a loony like Hutton Gibson, the few hundred K he can leave you is not lifechanging. For someone inheriting a farm it is. It means family disputes have more at stake and people can be pressured into "agreeing" with the partiarch.

4. Farming is bloody hard work and not without dangers. You can devote more time to your family as a suburban office worker than you can as a person owning and running a smallholiding.

5. Lots of idealistic Trads are naive dreamers and underestimate the hard work and long hours and sick animals and failed crops, cashflow problems, risk of injury, wildfires, damaged backs that can put them out of action in their 40s and 50s. I knew a Trad family in Australia who this happened to father lost his health while still young. In my estimation for many of those wannabe farmers it would be more prudent to live in the burbs and get an office job. Only if you've grown up around agriculture and have family connections, extra hands at harvest, and a full appreciation of the risks should you give any serious consideration to making a large proportion of your income from agriculture. Making small holdings pay is notoriously difficult. Look on the internet at people who have written about their experiences.

LaramieHirsch · « **Reply #40 on:** August 21, 2013, 03:13:03 PM »

I don't even like mowing my yard anymore.

Capt McQuigg · « **Reply #41 on:** August 21, 2013, 04:13:24 PM »

To separate ourselves from the world and to avoid worldlings doesn't require that we move out to the wilderness. In a general manner, separating ourselves physically by relocating to an isolated area is a tough thing to pull off. We can continue to work and live in our suburban home but do take the following actions:

(1) We can first get rid of TV (this should be first on the list of things to get rid of).

(2) We can refrain from buying electronic games for our children.

(3) We can avoid spending too much time at public arenas like bowling alleys, pool halls, and even limit our trips to the movie theatre.

(4) We can refuse to dress like the world does and encourage modesty in our children.

(5) We can stop watching sports altogether. And stop enrolling out kids in pee wee sports.

(6) We can refuse to partake in any political charades (i.e., voting for republicans or voting for democrats)

(7) The most obvious one - never ASSIST at a novus ordo church.

The above is all negative actions that we can take.

Positive actions?

(1) Marry a Traditional Catholic (or else doing all the above will be one huge challenge!)

(2) Live within your means.

(3) Spend your evenings reading Catholic books, or classic literature, discussing this material with your spouse.

(4) Engage in home improvement projects (replacement activity for all the TV you won't be watching :smile:)

(5) Hold a family rosary on a regular basis.

(6) Pray for the worldlings.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #42 on:** August 21, 2013, 04:15:46 PM »

Quote from: Capt McQuigg

To separate ourselves from the world and to avoid worldlings doesn't require that we move out to the wilderness.

We can first get rid of TV (this should be first on the list of things to get rid of).

We can refrain from buying electronic games for our children.

We can avoid spending too much time at public arenas like bowling alleys, pool halls, and even limit our trips to the movie theatre.

We can refuse to dress like the world does and encourage modesty in our children.

We can stop watching sports altogether.

We can refuse to partake in any political charades (i.e., voting for republicans or voting for democrats)

The above is all negative actions that we can take.

Avoid if at all possible sending children to secular schools for the years of their formation: pretty much a fundamental Catholic teaching.

Cantarella · « **Reply #43 on:** August 21, 2013, 04:16:44 PM »

Quote from: Capt McQuigg

To separate ourselves from the world and to avoid worldlings doesn't require that we move out to the wilderness.

We can first get rid of TV (this should be first on the list of things to get rid of).

We can refrain from buying electronic games for our children.

We can avoid spending too much time at public arenas like bowling alleys, pool halls, and even limit our trips to the movie theatre.

We can refuse to dress like the world does and encourage modesty in our children.

We can stop watching sports altogether.

We can refuse to partake in any political charades (i.e., voting for republicans or voting for democrats)

The above is all negative actions that we can take.

I think we should homeschool our children, if possible. If there is not a traditional Catholic school available to us, that we can rely upon.

Capt McQuigg · « **Reply #44 on:** August 21, 2013, 04:40:05 PM »

I wanted to add:

(1) Cancel all secular subscriptions (the only exception being job related publications)

(2) Greatly limit your children's access to the internet - junk is found there in bucket fulls!

(3) Cancel all newspaper subscriptions (you can still buy an occasional Sunday paper for the coupons)

(4) Make a conscious choice to sanctify your home by means of Catholic devotions, sacramentals, etc., (most of us know this already but their could be new people who are sick and tired of the novus ordo lurking here for the first time.)