Author Topic: Oh Boy (Read 6899 times)

Christopher67 · « **on:** September 20, 2014, 04:28:34 AM »

My wife received news a hours ago few that her cousin has hung himself Apparently not a Catholic. I know that there is a place in hell for ѕυιcιdєs. Please pray for his soul anyways.

Christopher67 · « **Reply #1 on:** September 20, 2014, 04:36:20 AM »

Quote from: Christopher67

My wife received news a few hours ago few that her cousin has hung himself Apparently not a Catholic. I know that there is a place in hell for ѕυιcιdєs. Please pray for his soul anyways.

Jaynek · « **Reply #2 on:** September 20, 2014, 05:14:53 AM »

I think it is OK to hope that the person repented in his last moments of life. I will pray.

Christopher67 · « **Reply #3 on:** September 20, 2014, 05:32:14 AM »

It is not ok

Miseremini · « **Reply #4 on:** September 20, 2014, 09:29:56 AM »

Quote from: Christopher67

It is not ok

Jean Vianney told a woman whose husband jumped off a bridge that he repented before he hit the water. I would think anyone hanging themselves would have second thoughts and possibly repent. Anyway we CAN hope God granted them a final grace to repent and we should pray for them. If infact he did not repent I'm confident Our Blessed Mother could use our prayers to prevent someone else having the same fate.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #5 on:** September 20, 2014, 01:15:51 PM »

Prayer is never, ever wasted.

RomanCatholic1953 · « **Reply #6 on:** September 20, 2014, 01:39:39 PM »

Prayers needed

MyrnaM · « **Reply #7 on:** September 20, 2014, 03:03:37 PM »

Quote from: GJC

Quote from: Miseremini
Quote from: Christopher67
It is not ok

Jean Vianney told a woman whose husband jumped off a bridge that he repented before he hit the water. I would think anyone hanging themselves would have second thoughts and possibly repent. Anyway we CAN hope God granted them a final grace to repent and we should pray for them. If infact he did not repent I'm confident Our Blessed Mother could use our prayers to prevent someone else having the same fate.

I thumbed down this response because of its liberal nature.

First of all, I do not for one second believe that St. John Vianney said that and am not required to.

Secondly, though it is virtuous to hope God grants final grace is one thing, but to assert that this person accepted it on the way down to the water, or as the rope is about to snap, is absurd and a sign of liberalism/cockle that the evil one sowed in the middle of the night.

The tree is identified by its fruit. Now one of two things happens to the soul that commits ѕυιcιdє, A) because of Divine judgment they were abandoned by God and permitted to fall away or B) they refused the final grace provided and jumped ANYWAY into hell, whether it is off the bridge or off the chair with the rope around their neck.

Either way (or any other way) is a mortal sin. Catholics should not be concerned with what God can do (He can do anything), but only with what God has done. What has God done you may ask? Well, God has made it crystal clear that murder is a mortal sin, with murder of oneself the worst. To insinuate anything other then this is to judge what God has already revealed, and to pray for souls in hell is vain and useless.

These prayers should be directed towards all (including ourselves and those in purgatory) that have received some sort of mercy from God. The fact that a man is still breathing with the opportunity to work out their salvation is a sign of this mercy.

For those gainsayers who want to assert that we are not able to "judge" or "declare" that anyone is in hell please understand that you are a liberal. There would be no reason at all for Christ Jesus to instruct His own on how to judge if they were not authorized to do so. It is not that which goes into a man that defiles him, but that which comes out. A man's heart is revealed by their words, actions and deeds. Now, from the Master of simplicity Christ Jesus, could it be anymore simple?

As a Catholic, our response to ѕυιcιdє should be hell fire for eternity, no and's, if's or but's.

A Liberal Catholic's response to ѕυιcιdє is hell, objectively speaking, but subjectively we really just don't know.

As a child I heard a similar story, no mention of Jean Vianney at all, I bet it was the same story and it went like this: A women was despondent because her husband jumped off a bridge to his death, she feared he lost his soul and went to a priest for consoling. He told her that it was a mortal sin to kill yourself if you were in your right mind, and he also said that there was a long way down from the point he jumped till he took his last breath and God works in mysterious ways.

That is the way I heard the story.

clare · « **Reply #8 on:** September 20, 2014, 04:13:56 PM »

Quote

The story starts on page 539 (last paragraph to the next page)of the Tan paperback "The Cure D'Ars St. Jean-Marie-Baptiste Vianney by Abbe Francis Trochu. Translation by Dom Ernest Graf, O.S.B. of St. Mary's Abbey, Buckfast.

This book was first published in 1927!

The chapter "The Great Mystical Experiences" states that St. John Vianney said "Between the parapet of the bridge and the water he had time to make an act of contrition. Our Blessed Lady obtained that grace for him."...

EWTN

Quote

...
An extraordinary example of the "between the stirrup and the ground" phenomenon was described by the Abbe Trochu in his biography of the Cure d'Ars. A certain Abbe Guillaumet met a lady on a train who was in deep mourning and when he said that he was going to Ars she asked, "Monsieur l'Abbe, will you allow me to accompany you to Ars? I may as well go there, as elsewhere.... I am travelling to distract my thoughts." When they reached the village, the priest led the lady to a place near the church and suddenly, the Cure appeared. He stopped in front of the lady in black who, following the example of the crowd, had gone down on her knees. He bent over her and whispered into her ear: "He is saved!" The woman was startled and M. Vianney repeated: "He is saved!" A gesture of incredulity was the only reply of the stranger. Whereupon the saint, stressing each word, repeated, "I tell you he is saved. He is in Purgatory, and you must pray for him. Between the parapet of the bridge and the water he had time to make an act of contrition. Our Blessed Lady obtained that grace for him. Remember the shrine that you put up in your room during the month of May? Though your husband professed to have no religion, he sometimes joined in your prayers; this merited for him the grace of repentance and pardon at the last moment.

The next day, the lady explained to Abbe Guillaumet that she had been in black despair because of the tragic death of her husband: "He was an unbeliever, and my one object in life was to bring him back to God. I did not get the time. He committed ѕυιcιdє by drowning himself. I could only think of him as lost. Oh! Were we never again to meet? Now you hear that the Cure d'Ars told me more than once: 'He is saved!' So I shall meet him again in heaven. Monsieur L'Abbe, I am cured!"

Free Library

Miseremini · « **Reply #9 on:** September 20, 2014, 05:00:20 PM »

Thank you Clare...I was typing the page out from Abbe Trochu's book when I saw your response.

Abbe Trochu had access to the Acts of the Process of Canonization of Jean Vianney and this story was taken from the sworn affidavide of M. Guillaumet who actually heard Jean Vianney say the husband was saved and also heard the circuмstances from the widow.

GJC...you don't have to believe anything I wrote but at least it can be backed up.
You have no right to call me a liberal.....you don't know me.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #10 on:** September 20, 2014, 06:46:41 PM »

Yes, Clare, thanks for the note, although I don't recall the mention of Cure D'Ars St. Jean-Marie-Baptiste Vianney, I was just a child when I heard the story, and I am sure it is the same story I heard from the nuns.

Having hope that someone might have saved their soul is not liberal, and having hope does not mean they did save their soul either. Remember those conditions that make a sin a mortal sin, those conditions are Church teaching. We are never to judge that someone for sure lost their soul. Although the Fatima did see a blizzard of souls falling into Hell fire and we know the road to Eternal Life is narrow.

BTNYC · « **Reply #11 on:** September 20, 2014, 07:19:57 PM »

Always remember the Thomistic distinctions:

Objective - Subjective

Material - Formal

Act - Potency

ѕυιcιdє is a mortal sin. That is an objective fact. A person who dies in mortal sin goes to hell. That is an objective fact.

Whether any one particular person is "definitely" in hell we cannot - indeed can never - say. The Church has never declared Luther or Arius or even Judas to be in hell. This is a subjective matter whcih we cannot judge. Interior dispositions and culpability are known to God alone and are for Him alone to Judge.

So while we cannot say this particular person who committed ѕυιcιdє is certainly in hell, we also cannot entertain any serious hope that those who commit ѕυιcιdє might be saved. Objectively speaking, there is no such hope. Better to err on the side of caution and not presume God's mercy where it very well may not be due.

That said, there is nothing wrong with praying for God to have mercy on a dead person's soul. Whatever the fate of that soul, as Myrna rightly says - the prayer will not be wasted.

poche · « **Reply #12 on:** September 20, 2014, 10:04:51 PM »

May his soul and the souls of all the faithful departed rest in peace. Amen.

tdrev123 · « **Reply #13 on:** September 20, 2014, 10:25:22 PM »

Quote from: Miseremini

Quote from: Christopher67
It is not ok

Jean Vianney told a woman whose husband jumped off a bridge that he repented before he hit the water. I would think anyone hanging themselves would have second thoughts and possibly repent. Anyway we CAN hope God granted them a final grace to repent and we should pray for them. If infact he did not repent I'm confident Our Blessed Mother could use our prayers to prevent someone else having the same fate.

I think I heard this same/similar story when I was in High School. I went to a 'Catholic' High school fyi. A classmate of mine had killed himself and the official police report was ѕυιcιdє, not possible ѕυιcιdє. This classmate of mine was to receive a Catholic funeral with multiple priests. I asked a religion teacher why this was allowed and he told me a story like that and was angry I even questioned the Novus Ordo Sect.

OHCA · « **Reply #14 on:** September 20, 2014, 11:08:29 PM »

Quote from: tdrev123

. . . and was angry I even questioned the Novus Ordo Sect.

Just a rude tone, or chewed you out, or what? Let some heretic or Jєω question something, and they start trying to compromise and accommodate. Let somebody ask why they're not conforming to true Catholicism, and they get angry. How dare you question their "pastoral" "who am I to judge" approach to trivial little technicalities...