Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Obelisk  (Read 4968 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Simeon

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1358
  • Reputation: +896/-95
  • Gender: Female
Re: Obelisk
« Reply #75 on: January 05, 2023, 05:06:18 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • DECEM: I think Hoffman makes a strong case in the book that some of the Renaissance popes opened themselves up to the spirit of the Renaissance, an opening that foreshadowed the aggiornamento of John XXIII I'm afraid.

    The problem is the copernican revolution that seeped into, and flowed out from, the magisterial offices of the Church, like a slow poison. Our Cassini oft writes about the U-turn of the popes, when they took Galileo off the Index and allowed copernicanism to be taught, comparatively, in seminaries and universities.

    This is absolutely the beginning of the rot.

    Hoffman insists the problem is usury. I insist the problem is copernicanism.

    The hierarchy doesn't have to explicitly teach heresy to weaken, over time, the Faith of Catholics. Mere neglect, omission, and giving, as it were, a certain place to error is sufficient to set a black fire in the bones of the Militant Church.





    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46682
    • Reputation: +27552/-5115
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Obelisk
    « Reply #76 on: January 05, 2023, 05:12:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • ... the Greeks kept their liturgical traditions and never broke from the faith that they held 1,000 years ago.

    There are a fair number of Modernists among the Easter Catholics as well, but, yes, for the MOST part, they've basically kept to the "dogma of the faith".


    Offline Simeon

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1358
    • Reputation: +896/-95
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Obelisk
    « Reply #77 on: January 05, 2023, 05:16:36 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • You and me both. I went down the Dimond rabbit-hole recently and came out questioning a lot of things to the point that I don't care to get caught up in any of the various trad group politics anymore. I want to be a Catholic who follows Catholicism, not the Catholicism interpreted by [insert trad group here]. 
    It took me somewhere around 16 years to learn this lesson. I've never been so peaceful as the day I finally stopped caring about trad positions. It's the exact same thing as the alt media - claiming to be unvarnished truth but actually in the business of disseminating manifold contradiction.  

    Offline Simeon

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1358
    • Reputation: +896/-95
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Obelisk
    « Reply #78 on: January 05, 2023, 05:22:50 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Hard pill to swallow but I can't say it's not on point...

    What does this mean in practical terms? We can no longer tell others they must submit to the pope, but to accept the reality of the papacy as an office, and that that office will likely remain vacant for the rest of our lives.

    Given the drama between all the different trad groups, we seem to be about as unified as the Greeks.
    DL pegged the practicality. What he says is eminently sufficient: "The See is vacant, but the jist of it is, just do what you can to be a good traditional Catholic in these times. Don't get hung up on the novelties or puritanism of other trads or trad groups."

    That being said, my many years of research has given me an understanding of how to be a faithful Catholic that avoids unnecessary distractions and positions. Had I not looked into matters so diligently, I may never have arrived at the same conclusion as DL. We live and we learn. It's not easy being a Catholic right now. It's a heavy Cross.  

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2327
    • Reputation: +876/-146
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Obelisk
    « Reply #79 on: January 05, 2023, 05:46:42 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • DECEM: I think Hoffman makes a strong case in the book that some of the Renaissance popes opened themselves up to the spirit of the Renaissance, an opening that foreshadowed the aggiornamento of John XXIII I'm afraid.

    The problem is the copernican revolution that seeped into, and flowed out from, the magisterial offices of the Church, like a slow poison. Our Cassini oft writes about the U-turn of the popes, when they took Galileo off the Index and allowed copernicanism to be taught, comparatively, in seminaries and universities.

    This is absolutely the beginning of the rot.

    Hoffman insists the problem is usury. I insist the problem is copernicanism.

    The hierarchy doesn't have to explicitly teach heresy to weaken, over time, the Faith of Catholics. Mere neglect, omission, and giving, as it were, a certain place to error is sufficient to set a black fire in the bones of the Militant Church.


    Hi, Simeon. Copernicanism perhaps for the intellectual corruption, but certainly usury for the moral. It's not for small reason that Scripture tells us, "the desire of money is the root of all evils; which some coveting have erred from the faith, and have entangled themselves in many sorrows."
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Cornelius

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 460
    • Reputation: +262/-266
    • Gender: Male
    • Some Catholic Guy.
    Re: Obelisk
    « Reply #80 on: January 05, 2023, 06:30:36 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • There are a fair number of Modernists among the Easter Catholics as well, but, yes, for the MOST part, they've basically kept to the "dogma of the faith".

    If that's the case, then there isn't really a problem, then.
    One day at a time.

    Offline Cornelius

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 460
    • Reputation: +262/-266
    • Gender: Male
    • Some Catholic Guy.
    Re: Obelisk
    « Reply #81 on: January 05, 2023, 06:36:32 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • DL pegged the practicality. What he says is eminently sufficient: "The See is vacant, but the jist of it is, just do what you can to be a good traditional Catholic in these times. Don't get hung up on the novelties or puritanism of other trads or trad groups."

    That being said, my many years of research has given me an understanding of how to be a faithful Catholic that avoids unnecessary distractions and positions. Had I not looked into matters so diligently, I may never have arrived at the same conclusion as DL. We live and we learn. It's not easy being a Catholic right now. It's a heavy Cross. 


    But then where is the Truth? 

    Must now everyone become an amateur historian-theologian themselves?

    Are there no priests that can be trusted? How can the Church teach if nobody actually has it right 100%?
    One day at a time.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46682
    • Reputation: +27552/-5115
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Obelisk
    « Reply #82 on: January 05, 2023, 06:45:15 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • What does this mean in practical terms? We can no longer tell others they must submit to the pope, but to accept the reality of the papacy as an office, and that that office will likely remain vacant for the rest of our lives.

    Of course we should tell others that we must be in submission to the Pope, but clarify that we do not submit to Jorge Bergoglio because we have serious reasons to believe that he's not the actual pope.  I give the vacancy about another 7-10 years or so, but it could go on longer.

    Canon Lawyers teach clearly that one is not a schismatic if a refusal of submission is due to reasonable and well-founded doubts about the legitimacy of a papal claimant.  If the Catholic faithful of today do not have such reason, then there's no such thing.


    Offline DigitalLogos

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8304
    • Reputation: +4718/-754
    • Gender: Male
    • Slave to the Sacred Heart
      • Twitter
    Re: Obelisk
    « Reply #83 on: January 05, 2023, 07:06:22 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Are there no priests that can be trusted? How can the Church teach if nobody actually has it right 100%?
    That's not what I meant. You can still trust the judgment of these priests, it's just that you need to have enough of a sensus catholicus that when they go off in the weeds and try to impose certain things as dogmas, when they aren't, then we start falling into their interpretation of Catholicism.

    Lad has spoken a bit on logical distinctions, which kind of inspired this outlook I have now. Basically, many of these groups will come up with a pet theory that may or may not be theologically certain, but has never been pronounced dogmatically by the Church herself, which they then attempt to bind consciences on. He takes the example of BoD, which you saw earlier (I believe in this thread). But it also applies to the dogmatic non-una cuм crowd, or the anti-sedevacantists, etc. None of these issues have been ruled on by the Church. So while each proponent may have a strong argument for their position, they have no grounds to enforce it as dogmatic. This constitutes the "weeds" and where it turns into some auxiliary priest or bishop's interpretation of Catholicism versus actually traditional Catholicism.

    The only person who "has it right" 100% of the time is the Pope when he speaks infallibly. If there isn't a standing Pope, or a "heretical Pope", then we don't have this point of unity to bind us. That's why trad Catholicism is an infighting mess and why the Novus Ordo is a total doctrinal mess.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Cornelius

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 460
    • Reputation: +262/-266
    • Gender: Male
    • Some Catholic Guy.
    Re: Obelisk
    « Reply #84 on: January 05, 2023, 07:42:52 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • That's not what I meant. You can still trust the judgment of these priests, it's just that you need to have enough of a sensus catholicus that when they go off in the weeds and try to impose certain things as dogmas, when they aren't, then we start falling into their interpretation of Catholicism.

    Lad has spoken a bit on logical distinctions, which kind of inspired this outlook I have now. Basically, many of these groups will come up with a pet theory that may or may not be theologically certain, but has never been pronounced dogmatically by the Church herself, which they then attempt to bind consciences on. He takes the example of BoD, which you saw earlier (I believe in this thread). But it also applies to the dogmatic non-una cuм crowd, or the anti-sedevacantists, etc. None of these issues have been ruled on by the Church. So while each proponent may have a strong argument for their position, they have no grounds to enforce it as dogmatic. This constitutes the "weeds" and where it turns into some auxiliary priest or bishop's interpretation of Catholicism versus actually traditional Catholicism.

    The only person who "has it right" 100% of the time is the Pope when he speaks infallibly. If there isn't a standing Pope, or a "heretical Pope", then we don't have this point of unity to bind us. That's why trad Catholicism is an infighting mess and why the Novus Ordo is a total doctrinal mess.

    So then where is the actual unity of the Church, right now, today, then?
    One day at a time.

    Offline DigitalLogos

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8304
    • Reputation: +4718/-754
    • Gender: Male
    • Slave to the Sacred Heart
      • Twitter
    Re: Obelisk
    « Reply #85 on: January 05, 2023, 08:39:17 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So then where is the actual unity of the Church, right now, today, then?
    For it is written: I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be dispersed." [Matthew 26:31]

    Those who agree that traditional Catholicism is the way; take this forum as an example. We disagree on a lot of things, but we all agree that the Novus Ordo is not the Catholic Church and we all believe the same fundamentals of Catholic doctrine. While traditional Catholics have been dispersed, we still constitute the unity of the Church.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4102
    • Reputation: +2417/-528
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Obelisk
    « Reply #86 on: January 05, 2023, 10:00:51 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • So then where is the actual unity of the Church, right now, today, then?
    .

    The unity of the Church consists in three things:  unity in faith, in law, and in liturgy. Traditional Catholics all have exactly the same Faith, have the same sacraments and Mass (the differences between the John 23 Mass and the Pius V Mass are minimal), and we all follow the law of the Church and have the intention to submit ourselves to its lawful authority insofar as we can (there are different interpretations about how or whether that is possible, but the intention is exactly the same in all of us).

    I think people make far too much of the differences among traditional Catholics and not nearly enough of what we have in common, and not nearly enough of what separates us from the modernist Vatican 2 sect.

    Offline Cornelius

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 460
    • Reputation: +262/-266
    • Gender: Male
    • Some Catholic Guy.
    Re: Obelisk
    « Reply #87 on: January 06, 2023, 06:34:23 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • .

    The unity of the Church consists in three things:  unity in faith, in law, and in liturgy. Traditional Catholics all have exactly the same Faith, have the same sacraments and Mass (the differences between the John 23 Mass and the Pius V Mass are minimal), and we all follow the law of the Church and have the intention to submit ourselves to its lawful authority insofar as we can (there are different interpretations about how or whether that is possible, but the intention is exactly the same in all of us).

    I think people make far too much of the differences among traditional Catholics and not nearly enough of what we have in common, and not nearly enough of what separates us from the modernist Vatican 2 sect.

    Some trads find reason to reject or refuse communion to other trads. Even with all else in common, is that not schismatic?

    If the see is vacant and there aren't any ordinary bishops, we may have law, but who enforces what? Who submits to whom?

    In regards to Pope Pius XII for example, trads that are more realistic commonly "judge" him. But where is the line? Will such a person not end up "judging" all the popes for this or that reason?
    One day at a time.