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Author Topic: Obelisk  (Read 4970 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Obelisk
« Reply #60 on: January 04, 2023, 05:11:55 PM »
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  • Yes it was on published in the Acta which is explicitly for reference by the universal Church.

    That fact about that allocution is what changed my mind on the whole BoD contention as put forth by the Dimonds/MHFM. Pius XII explicitly mentions BoD for adults and not children.

    The cope about it "not being infallible" is just that, cope.

    There's no "cope".  SV exaggeration of both infallibility and the overall authortiy of the different modes of papal teaching are utterly absurd, an overreaction to R&R that have thrown thoser under the bus.  I urge you to Google and read the balanced work of Msgr. Fenton regarding the "Authority of Papal Encyclicals."  Extending the plenitutde of papal authority to Pacelli (or any other Pope) every time he passes wind (through his lips, and for some SVs even elsewhere) turns the Church's doctrine into a source of ridicule to non-Catholics, elevating the Pope to some divine oracle.

    Pius XII was an unmitigated disaster for the Church, and his was the watershed papacy that led directly to Vatican II.

    Offline Cornelius

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    Re: Obelisk
    « Reply #61 on: January 04, 2023, 05:18:36 PM »
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  • There's no "cope".  SV exaggeration of both infallibility and the overall authortiy of the different modes of papal teaching are utterly absurd, an overreaction to R&R that have thrown thoser under the bus.  I urge you to Google and read the balanced work of Msgr. Fenton regarding the "Authority of Papal Encyclicals."  Extending the plenitutde of papal authority to Pacelli (or any other Pope) every time he passes wind (through his lips, and for some SVs even elsewhere) turns the Church's doctrine into a source of ridicule to non-Catholics, elevating the Pope to some divine oracle.

    Pius XII was an unmitigated disaster for the Church, and his was the watershed papacy that led directly to Vatican II.

    Well where I'm coming from is the BoD-Dimond brothers rabbit hole.

    If Pius XII taught BoD in an allocution that is meant for the whole Church, then according to the Dimonds logic, Pius wouldn't be pope. Of course they say that it's not infallible so it doesn't count, but it has literally been infallibly defined that Catholics cannot only believe those things that are extraordinarily defined.

    Things consistently taught in the ordinary magisterium must also be believed. It's not an "option."
    One day at a time.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Obelisk
    « Reply #62 on: January 04, 2023, 05:31:32 PM »
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  • If Pius XII taught BoD in an allocution that is meant for the whole Church, then according to the Dimonds logic, Pius wouldn't be pope.

    OK, but one does't have to accept the Dimonds' premises to make an objective assessment of the situation.  BoD per se is certainly not heresy, and it's an opinion that's long been tolerated by the Church, but that also doesn't make it true.  I've long disagreed with the Dimonds' exaggeration of the theological note regarding BoD.  BoD has always been speculation and theory.  There's no evidence of its having been divinely revealed, as the majority of Church Fathers rejected it, and I've never seen a single argument made that indicates BoD was implicitly revealed, i.e. that it proceeds implicitly and necessarily from premises that were revealed ... the only two ways we have to determine the contents of the Deposit of Revelation (unless you're a Modernist who believes that the Church can come to an "awareness" of new revealed truths over time).  In fact, the only even quasi-theological argument I've seen for BoD is from St. Thomas, and the others simply have a house of cards of "authority" leading back to St. Augustine (who later rejected BoD and issued some of the most anti-BoD statements in existence).  St. Thomas stated that Sacraments have a visible aspect and an invisible, but did not prove that the two were separable in the case of Baptism.  They most certainly are not in Holy Orders or Confirmation ... ironically, the other two Sacraments that confer a character.

    So the mistake made by the Dimonds is in believing that if they can put together a formally valid syllogism that consists of even a single Revealed Premise, that makes the conclusion tantamount to being revealed.  First of all, both premises must be revealed, as the strength of a conclusion can only be as strong as its weakest premise peiorem partem sequitur conclusio, but even if both presmies are revealed, the construction of the argument itself is subject to human error.  Just because it's formally valid doesn't mean that some distinction wasn't missed.

    By way of example:

    MAJOR:  the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for salvation, de fide, taught solemnly by Trent.
    MINOR:  BoD means that the Sacrament of Baptism is not necessary for salvation [their assertion].
    CONCLUSION:  BoD is heretical because it rejects the dogma in the MAJOR.

    While the MAJOR is most certainly dogma and denying it would be heresy, the issue is with their Minor, their assertion that BoD means the Sacrament of Baptism is not necessary for salvation.  I doubt that St. Robert Bellarmine would have been so obtuse as to not see such a glaring contradiction of dogma.

    No, people could reject the CONCLUSION because they dispute the MINOR, since they assert that even in the case of BoD, the Sacrament remains necessary, and the "necessity" taught by Trent doesn't mean the necessity of actual reception, but that in BoD, the Sacrament remained the instrumental cause of justification, i.e. there could be no BAPTISM of Desire without a Sacrament of Baptism TO Desire.  I think it's weak, but it's NOT heresy to reject their MINOR.

    Now, for all intents and purposes, the vast majority of those who hold BoD DO in fact reject the necessity of the Sacrament.  You'll notice that St. Robert Bellarmine was very careful to avoid stating that the catechumen could be saved WITHOUT the Sacrament, which he knew would be heretical.  Instead, he says that those saved by so-called "BoD" receive the Sacrament in voto, i.e. holds that BoD is an alternative mode of receiving the Sacrament apart from having water poured on your head.  Again, there's no proof for this.  For every argument in its favor, I find dozens of arguments against it.

    Offline Cornelius

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    Re: Obelisk
    « Reply #63 on: January 04, 2023, 05:57:17 PM »
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  • OK, but one does't have to accept the Dimonds' premises to make an objective assessment of the situation.  BoD per se is certainly not heresy, and it's an opinion that's long been tolerated by the Church, but that also doesn't make it true.  I've long disagreed with the Dimonds' exaggeration of the theological note regarding BoD.  BoD has always been speculation and theory.  There's no evidence of its having been divinely revealed, as the majority of Church Fathers rejected it, and I've never seen a single argument made that indicates BoD was implicitly revealed, i.e. that it proceeds implicitly and necessarily from premises that were revealed ... the only two ways we have to determine the contents of the Deposit of Revelation (unless you're a Modernist who believes that the Church can come to an "awareness" of new revealed truths over time).  In fact, the only even quasi-theological argument I've seen for BoD is from St. Thomas, and the others simply have a house of cards of "authority" leading back to St. Augustine (who later rejected BoD and issued some of the most anti-BoD statements in existence).  St. Thomas stated that Sacraments have a visible aspect and an invisible, but did not prove that the two were separable in the case of Baptism.  They most certainly are not in Holy Orders or Confirmation ... ironically, the other two Sacraments that confer a character.

    So the mistake made by the Dimonds is in believing that if they can put together a formally valid syllogism that consists of even a single Revealed Premise, that makes the conclusion tantamount to being revealed.  First of all, both premises must be revealed, as the strength of a conclusion can only be as strong as its weakest premise peiorem partem sequitur conclusio, but even if both presmies are revealed, the construction of the argument itself is subject to human error.  Just because it's formally valid doesn't mean that some distinction wasn't missed.

    By way of example:

    MAJOR:  the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for salvation, de fide, taught solemnly by Trent.
    MINOR:  BoD means that the Sacrament of Baptism is not necessary for salvation [their assertion].
    CONCLUSION:  BoD is heretical because it rejects the dogma in the MAJOR.

    While the MAJOR is most certainly dogma and denying it would be heresy, the issue is with their Minor, their assertion that BoD means the Sacrament of Baptism is not necessary for salvation.  I doubt that St. Robert Bellarmine would have been so obtuse as to not see such a glaring contradiction of dogma.

    No, people could reject the CONCLUSION because they dispute the MINOR, since they assert that even in the case of BoD, the Sacrament remains necessary, and the "necessity" taught by Trent doesn't mean the necessity of actual reception, but that in BoD, the Sacrament remained the instrumental cause of justification, i.e. there could be no BAPTISM of Desire without a Sacrament of Baptism TO Desire.  I think it's weak, but it's NOT heresy to reject their MINOR.

    Now, for all intents and purposes, the vast majority of those who hold BoD DO in fact reject the necessity of the Sacrament.  You'll notice that St. Robert Bellarmine was very careful to avoid stating that the catechumen could be saved WITHOUT the Sacrament, which he knew would be heretical.  Instead, he says that those saved by so-called "BoD" receive the Sacrament in voto, i.e. holds that BoD is an alternative mode of receiving the Sacrament apart from having water poured on your head.  Again, there's no proof for this.  For every argument in its favor, I find dozens of arguments against it.

    Honestly, I don't have any confidence about either position at this point.

    The more I study, the more I look for answers, the deeper and deeper the rabbit hole goes.

    I have fronted like I am actually confident about anything, but I'm not. I just want God to have mercy on me. idk wtf is going on anymore tbh.
    One day at a time.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Obelisk
    « Reply #64 on: January 04, 2023, 06:46:04 PM »
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  • Honestly, I don't have any confidence about either position at this point.

    The more I study, the more I look for answers, the deeper and deeper the rabbit hole goes.

    I have fronted like I am actually confident about anything, but I'm not. I just want God to have mercy on me. idk wtf is going on anymore tbh.
    You and me both. I went down the Dimond rabbit-hole recently and came out questioning a lot of things to the point that I don't care to get caught up in any of the various trad group politics anymore. I want to be a Catholic who follows Catholicism, not the Catholicism interpreted by [insert trad group here]. But, unfortunately, someone's post-Conciliar interpretation of Catholicism is going to creep in there somewhere eventually.

    My thoughts on the situation from a recent Gab post of mine are attached, if interested. (And NO, I am absolutely NOT advocating for the "Orthodox" by quoting him)

     I still think the See is vacant, but the jist of it is, just do what you can to be a good traditional Catholic in these times. Don't get hung up on the novelties or puritanism of other trads or trad groups.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Obelisk
    « Reply #65 on: January 04, 2023, 06:52:19 PM »
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  • No, there was no teaching addressed to the Universal Church.  It's very obvious from the tone of the docuмent that he's speculating, referring numerous times to various "theories" and was ... almost in Wojtyla-esque fashion ... asking the Midwives to help the Chuch work it out about the issues he discussed.

    This is nowhere close to having even the tone of a Papal Encyclical.  It's a long, rambling, speculative speech delivered to a group of Midwives.  Simply because it's put out there in a book doesn't change the authority of the teaching.
    .

    I think it may be helpful to quote Cartechini's foundational work, Must I Believe It? He teaches a rather different set of principles than what you seem to follow on questions like this, when the pope or his congregations teach without the note of infallibility:



    Quote
    On what intellectual ground, therefore, do the faithful base the assent which they are obliged to render to these non-infallible decisions of authority? On what Cardinal Franzelin10 somewhat cuмbrously but accurately describes as auctoritas universalis providentiae ecclesiasticae. The faithful rightly consider that, even where there is no exercise of the infallible magisterium, divine Providence has a special care for the Church of Christ; that therefore the Sovereign Pontiff in view of his sacred office is endowed by God with the graces necessary for the proper fulfilment of it; that therefore his doctrinal utterances, even when not guaranteed by infallibility, enjoy the highest competence; that in a proportionate degree this is true also of the Roman Congregations and of the Biblical Commission, composed of men of great learning and experience, who are fully alive to the needs and doctrinal tendencies of the day, and who, in view of the care and the (proverbial) caution with which they carry out the duties committed to them by the Sovereign Pontiff, inspire full confidence in the wisdom and prudence of their decisions. Based as it is upon these considerations of a religious order, the assent in question is called a "religious assent."
     
             But these decisions are not infallible, and therefore religious assent lacks that perfect certainty which belongs to divine Catholic faith and ecclesiastical faith. On the other hand belief in the Providence which governs the Church in all its activities, and especially in all the manifestations of the supreme ecclesiastical authority, forbids us to doubt or to suspend assent. The Catholic will not allow his thought to wander into channels where he is assured by authority that danger threatens his faith; he will - indeed he must - suffer it to be guided by what he is bound to regard as the competent custodian of revealed truth. In the cases which we are now contemplating, he is not told how to adhere with the fullness of certainty to a doctrine which is divinely guaranteed by infallibility; but he is told that this particular proposition may be maintained with perfect safety, while its contradictory is fraught with danger to the faith; that in the circuмstances and in the present state of our knowledge this or that interpretation of Scripture may not safely be forsaken; that a particular philosophical tenet may lead to serious errors in a matter of faith. And the Catholic must shun the danger of which he is authoritatively warned by bowing to the judgment of authority. He must not doubt, he must assent.
    .

    Although his explanation is rather complex, the idea is very simple. The pope is endowed with special graces and protection by God to exercise his authority in teaching the Church, and therefore the faithful must assent to his teachings even when they are given without the note of infallibility.

    Offline Cornelius

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    Re: Obelisk
    « Reply #66 on: January 04, 2023, 10:16:37 PM »
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  • You and me both. I went down the Dimond rabbit-hole recently and came out questioning a lot of things to the point that I don't care to get caught up in any of the various trad group politics anymore. I want to be a Catholic who follows Catholicism, not the Catholicism interpreted by [insert trad group here]. But, unfortunately, someone's post-Conciliar interpretation of Catholicism is going to creep in there somewhere eventually.

    My thoughts on the situation from a recent Gab post of mine are attached, if interested. (And NO, I am absolutely NOT advocating for the "Orthodox" by quoting him)

     I still think the See is vacant, but the jist of it is, just do what you can to be a good traditional Catholic in these times. Don't get hung up on the novelties or puritanism of other trads or trad groups.

    Hard pill to swallow but I can't say it's not on point...

    What does this mean in practical terms? We can no longer tell others they must submit to the pope, but to accept the reality of the papacy as an office, and that that office will likely remain vacant for the rest of our lives.

    Given the drama between all the different trad groups, we seem to be about as unified as the Greeks. 
    One day at a time.

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Obelisk
    « Reply #67 on: January 05, 2023, 04:05:24 AM »
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  • Where did you get the information in the OP from?
    Podcast. Jesus 911.  The show is good but I disagreed about the Obelisk part of  the show.  
    May God bless you and keep you


    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Obelisk
    « Reply #68 on: January 05, 2023, 04:06:41 AM »
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  • Cornelius is right.  We need to be unified  just like the 4 Marks of the Catholic Church. 
    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Obelisk
    « Reply #69 on: January 05, 2023, 05:29:07 AM »
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  • .

    I think it may be helpful to quote Cartechini's foundational work, Must I Believe It? He teaches a rather different set of principles than what you seem to follow on questions like this, when the pope or his congregations teach without the note of infallibility:


    .

    Although his explanation is rather complex, the idea is very simple. The pope is endowed with special graces and protection by God to exercise his authority in teaching the Church, and therefore the faithful must assent to his teachings even when they are given without the note of infallibility.


    Although I agree with what you’ve written here, it was Canon Smith’s work, not Cartechini.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Obelisk
    « Reply #70 on: January 05, 2023, 06:14:37 AM »
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  • No, I haven't read Hoffman's book.

    See, most of these examples are passive, i.e. negligence and sins of omission.  Where did any of these corrupt popes actively teach grave error to the Universal Church?  And not just grave error, but replace the Catholic Church with an institution that lacks the Marks of the One True Church of Christ?

    Agreed on usury, evolution (Pius XII), NFP (Pius XII ... opining in front of a group of midwives, not teaching Universal Church), laxity about this, that, or the other thing.

    But the Conciliar papal claimants have absolutely actively taught the same errors that they articulated and put into practice at Assisi, and they replaced the Catholic Mass, and have canonized bogus saints.

    I just see no comparison between what some/many of these others Popes did (or, rather, didn't do) and what the Conciliar papal claimants have taught and imposed on the Church ... I don't see how they're even in the same category.

    This is no difference of degree, but a difference in kind.

    If Pope St. Pius V timewarped forward to the time of Pope Pius XII, he would still most certainly have recognized clearly the True Church of Christ, as essentially the same as what it was in his day.  If he timewarped to the Bergoglian era, he would most certainly think it some bizarre Protestant sect.  In fact, Luther would be appalled by what the Conciliar Church has become.

    Lad,

    Where did that come from? I never argued for a moral (or immoral) equivalency between the Conciliar Church and the Church of the Renaissance. The issue was simply whether the Renaissance popes let in elements of the occult, Kabbalah and тαℓмυdic through as it were the back door by taking token, public actions against such spiritual corruption while fostering the promoters, purveyors and publishers (artists and scholars) of it, and Hoffman makes a very solid case that they did. There's a "head in the sand" and do not wrong element about the treatment of the papacy and popes that simply doesn't square with the historical record. And we haven't even mentioned the "modernist" cave on geocentrism.

    We both have expressed that the Conciliar Church presents marks that are indicative of the Great Apostasy forecast in Scripture, which shows radical signs of innovation, including revolutionary tampering with the worship of God (the liturgy, sacraments) - Daniels account of a "chang[ing of] times and laws (7:25) - that are clearly not something you see in the Renaissance.

    I am not making any such claim as you appear to be addressing.

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Confiteor Deo

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    Re: Obelisk
    « Reply #71 on: January 05, 2023, 08:20:20 AM »
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  • Lad,

    Where did that come from? I never argued for a moral (or immoral) equivalency between the Conciliar Church and the Church of the Renaissance. The issue was simply whether the Renaissance popes let in elements of the occult, Kabbalah and тαℓмυdic through as it were the back door by taking token, public actions against such spiritual corruption while fostering the promoters, purveyors and publishers (artists and scholars) of it, and Hoffman makes a very solid case that they did. There's a "head in the sand" and do not wrong element about the treatment of the papacy and popes that simply doesn't square with the historical record. And we haven't even mentioned the "modernist" cave on geocentrism.

    We both have expressed that the Conciliar Church presents marks that are indicative of the Great Apostasy forecast in Scripture, which shows radical signs of innovation, including revolutionary tampering with the worship of God (the liturgy, sacraments) - Daniels account of a "chang[ing of] times and laws (7:25) - that are clearly not something you see in the Renaissance.

    I am not making any such claim as you appear to be addressing.

    DR

    I have read the Hoffman book and come to the same conclusions as you. The book would certainly come under the index of the Church because of grave accusations against Saint Alphonse Ligouri and a whole chapters in support of Martin Luther but much there needs to be adressed and debated by qualified church historians.   

    I suspect that since the Renaissance, and the election of popes in the monstrously decorated sistine chapel, something is not quite right. There are to be no more encyclicals about the jews, and Jєωιѕн converts such as Johannes Pfefferkorn who exposed the тαℓмυd, really struggled to find support in Rome in his battle against the cabalist humanism of Johannes Reuchlin. 

    All that seemed clear cut and obvious in the middle ages seems up for debate after the renaissance and politics and science became relatively unimportant to the Church. Jews then stepped in to do the thinking for us in these domains.

    Would a medieval Pope have let Henry VIII get away with the destruction of the English Church without calling for a crusade? 



    Offline Cornelius

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    Re: Obelisk
    « Reply #72 on: January 05, 2023, 02:14:56 PM »
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  • I have read the Hoffman book and come to the same conclusions as you. The book would certainly come under the index of the Church because of grave accusations against Saint Alphonse Ligouri and a whole chapters in support of Martin Luther but much there needs to be adressed and debated by qualified church historians. 

    I suspect that since the Renaissance, and the election of popes in the monstrously decorated sistine chapel, something is not quite right. There are to be no more encyclicals about the Jєωs, and Jєωιѕн converts such as Johannes Pfefferkorn who exposed the тαℓмυd, really struggled to find support in Rome in his battle against the cabalist humanism of Johannes Reuchlin.

    All that seemed clear cut and obvious in the middle ages seems up for debate after the renaissance and politics and science became relatively unimportant to the Church. Jєωs then stepped in to do the thinking for us in these domains.

    Would a medieval Pope have let Henry VIII get away with the destruction of the English Church without calling for a crusade?

    I don't think it was a matter of "let." Loyal Catholics were already spread thin. Besides, the Spanish did move against Elizabeth, but failed. If they had succeeded, there is no doubt that the Spanish would have restored the Church in England.
    One day at a time.

    Offline WhiteWorkinClassScapegoat

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    Re: Obelisk
    « Reply #73 on: January 05, 2023, 03:44:46 PM »
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  • You and me both. I went down the Dimond rabbit-hole recently and came out questioning a lot of things to the point that I don't care to get caught up in any of the various trad group politics anymore. I want to be a Catholic who follows Catholicism, not the Catholicism interpreted by [insert trad group here]. But, unfortunately, someone's post-Conciliar interpretation of Catholicism is going to creep in there somewhere eventually.

    My thoughts on the situation from a recent Gab post of mine are attached, if interested. (And NO, I am absolutely NOT advocating for the "Orthodox" by quoting him)

     I still think the See is vacant, but the jist of it is, just do what you can to be a good traditional Catholic in these times. Don't get hung up on the novelties or puritanism of other trads or trad groups.

    Regarding your last Gab upload, the Greeks kept their liturgical traditions and never broke from the faith that they held 1,000 years ago. Nothing changed wih them, despite not having a pope. But the Catholic Church became so reduced after the Seat becoming vacant and changing its beliefs, thus, producing a entity that's not Catholic and eclipses the true Catholic Church. So the former has nobody to blame but themselves, yet they kept their traditions and faith, but the latter isn't to blame, except those at the top for their conspiracy against the Church, and most of them lose the faith and traditions. Explain that one.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Obelisk
    « Reply #74 on: January 05, 2023, 04:40:48 PM »
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  • Regarding your last Gab upload, the Greeks kept their liturgical traditions and never broke from the faith that they held 1,000 years ago. Nothing changed wih them, despite not having a pope. But the Catholic Church became so reduced after the Seat becoming vacant and changing its beliefs, thus, producing a entity that's not Catholic and eclipses the true Catholic Church. So the former has nobody to blame but themselves, yet they kept their traditions and faith, but the latter isn't to blame, except those at the top for their conspiracy against the Church, and most of them lose the faith and traditions. Explain that one.
    They kept their traditions, sure, but look at the mess that is their doctrine. You have Greek bishops promoting sodomy, contraception and divorce while Russians reject it. You have various national churches warring with other national churches and a bunch of little schisms. Sure, they may have the same liturgy from apostolic times but that doesn't mean much when they don't actually have the Faith (despite your claim that they do). It's basically the Novus Ordo sect with traditional Eastern accidents. They claim there's some mystical thing called "orthodoxy" binding them together, but that "orthodoxy" changes between each See. That is all the result of the choices of these Bishops and Metropolitans rejecting papal supremacy and refusing to reconcile with, and submit to, Rome.

    The Catholic Church hasn't had that problem right up until Pius XII. It was only after when the hierarchy was effectively usurped that the problems arose, forcing a sort of "traditionalist reconstruction" of the Catholic faith with the demolition of the Church after the Council. We find ourselves in a similar predicament as the EO in practice, but this is not due to a refusal to be subject to Rome; it is due to there being no Pope, or a "heretical Pope" (to throw R&R's a bone), to create that unity necessary for papal subjection. Our problem came about through internal subversion, not rejection. So yes, comparing the two, we cannot say that Catholics are to blame for what occurred in the same way as the EO. Sure, we could point to lukewarmness of laity or Modernist infiltrators, but these are symptoms of a different nature rather than an explicit choice to defect from Catholic principles.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]