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Author Topic: Valid marriage  (Read 748 times)

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Offline Gunter

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Valid marriage
« on: January 05, 2023, 02:46:50 PM »
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  • A friend of mine poised this question? 

    If a party to a marriage never had the intent of being faithful and subsequently the marriage was annulled on lacking intent, would all marriages suffering under the same condition be objectively not a marriage since the intent for valid Catholic marriage was never there? 

    Even if the party involved was subsequently catechized on his faith over the years and came to the realization that he or she lacked intent but would now possess the proper intent.

    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Valid marriage
    « Reply #1 on: January 05, 2023, 03:32:08 PM »
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  • A friend of mine poised this question? 

    If a party to a marriage never had the intent of being faithful and subsequently the marriage was annulled on lacking intent, would all marriages suffering under the same condition be objectively not a marriage since the intent for valid Catholic marriage was never there? 

    Even if the party involved was subsequently catechized on his faith over the years and came to the realization that he or she lacked intent but would now possess the proper intent.
    I think it would be considered an invalid marriage if the intent wasn't there when the original vows took place. 

    In the situation that they came to later have the proper intention the couple should have a traditional Catholic priest "re-witness" their marriage vows privately but with witnesses so as to avoid scandal.
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/


    Offline Gunter

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    Re: Valid marriage
    « Reply #2 on: January 05, 2023, 04:47:04 PM »
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  • He was thinking about how many no weddings were invalid due to lack of internal intent. I gave the same answer as you.

    Offline Gunter

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    Re: Valid marriage
    « Reply #3 on: January 05, 2023, 04:48:56 PM »
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  • Can someone help me clarify matter and form.  Is matter the one's joining and form I take thee.....

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Valid marriage
    « Reply #4 on: January 05, 2023, 06:00:32 PM »
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  • A friend of mine poised this question? 

    If a party to a marriage never had the intent of being faithful and subsequently the marriage was annulled on lacking intent, would all marriages suffering under the same condition be objectively not a marriage since the intent for valid Catholic marriage was never there? 
    .

    If the person gets up in front of the altar and in front of a priest and swears that they will accept their spouse as their spouse, they must be taken at their word. They have no way to prove later that they didn't have the right intention when they pronounced their vows.

    And if they claim that they were being dishonest in the most solemn act of their life, in the most important statement they will ever make, then how on earth can they be believed later on when they claim they were being dishonest in giving their marriage vows?

    If a marriage could be annulled over what you described, then no marriage could ever be considered certainly valid, since anyone can say later that they lacked intent when they gave their marriage vows.


    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Valid marriage
    « Reply #5 on: January 05, 2023, 06:01:19 PM »
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  • He was thinking about how many no weddings were invalid due to lack of internal intent. I gave the same answer as you.
    👍
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/

    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Valid marriage
    « Reply #6 on: January 05, 2023, 06:05:56 PM »
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  • Can someone help me clarify matter and form.  Is matter the one's joining and form I take thee.....
    1.  Ministers of Matrimony:
         The two spouses (witnessed by two people and usually blessed by a priest according to Church law unless no priest is available).

    2.  Matter of Matrimony
         Mutual consent of spouses 

    3.  Form of Matrimony
         "I N. take the N. as my spouse...  Til death do us part."



    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/

    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Valid marriage
    « Reply #7 on: January 05, 2023, 06:15:38 PM »
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  • .

    If the person gets up in front of the altar and in front of a priest and swears that they will accept their spouse as their spouse, they must be taken at their word. They have no way to prove later that they didn't have the right intention when they pronounced their vows.

    And if they claim that they were being dishonest in the most solemn act of their life, in the most important statement they will ever make, then how on earth can they be believed later on when they claim they were being dishonest in giving their marriage vows?

    If a marriage could be annulled over what you described, then no marriage could ever be considered certainly valid, since anyone can say later that they lacked intent when they gave their marriage vows.
    In general what you say is true and most modern "annulments" definitely are an abuse...

    That being said... 

    I know someone who specifically made it known before her wedding that she never intended her marriage vows to be "until death do us part" but only went through the works of the ceremony because of the pressure of her parents (she already had given birth to a child out of wedlock) and to "make them happy".

    Her "husband" was a "convert" but really only became Catholic to be able to "marry her".  He knew that she never intended to be faithful to him when they had the ceremony but hoped that she would change.  She didn't and didn't stick with him for long...

    In my opinion they never should have had the ceremony and it likely wasn't ever valid to begin with....  But leave it to the novus ordo to just ignore any warning signs of trouble and just go through the works and deal with the situation afterwards by giving out annulments like candy.

    That being said...  Unless one of the spouses was specifically open BEFORE THE WEDDING (and before witnesses) about never planning to be faithful and both said the proper words the marriage is generally considered valid and should not be given an annulment.  And if one spouse claims they privately had reservations and gets an "annulment" the other spouse should never re-marry.



    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Valid marriage
    « Reply #8 on: January 05, 2023, 06:37:00 PM »
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  • So, I take it that there are two questions there and that the first question is, if one marriage is declared null for this (or some other) reason, are all marriages that labor under the same difficulty null in the eyes of God?

    While I don't grant your premise that this intention renders a marriage null, that would in fact be the case, as the Church does not actually anull marriages, i.e. render them null, but merely declares they they were null, never marriages in the first place.  There are probably couples who are not married and don't know it, probably not due to a defect of intention but for some other legitimate reason (didn't know one was baptized Catholic for instance).  Objectively speaking, in the eyes of God, those marriages are null, but of course God would not hold them accountable for adultery or fornication if in fact they were in invincible ignorance of the situation.

    I always use this example.  If I see a $100 bill on a table and I pick it up and leave, and I THOUGHT it was mine but actually turned out to belong to someone else, objectively speaking this was a grave injustice and a theft.  But subjectively there's no sin because I was ignorant.  On the other hand, if I see $100 on the table and THINK it belongs to someone else (but it was actually mine), if I make off with it under those circuмstances, then I am subjectively guilty of grave sin despite the fact that there was no objetive injustice or theft.

    As with the other Sacraments, this "intention" stuff is nonsense, especially for those married in front of a Catholic priest.  They go to the church intending to do what the Church does, and so intending to get married.

    But, to answer what I believe to be a second question, if they later formed the intent to properly marry, what matters is the intention at the time of the marriage itself, so the marriage would have to be sanated by repeating the vows before the priest ... which the Church will automatically accept, especially for a couple who have been living together as if married.