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Author Topic: Obedience and Disobedience.  (Read 2576 times)

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Offline Adrienne

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Obedience and Disobedience.
« on: March 04, 2011, 12:37:51 AM »
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  • What is a Traditional Catholic still living at home to do when their parents want them to attend the Novus Ordo Mass?

    Does the SSPX have anything to say about situations like these?


    Offline Raoul76

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    Obedience and Disobedience.
    « Reply #1 on: March 04, 2011, 01:28:16 AM »
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  • I don't know, but I do -- tell them you're not going.

    Luke 12:53:

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    The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against his father, the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother, the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.


    Are you suggesting they'll kick you out if you refuse?  
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.


    Offline TKGS

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    Obedience and Disobedience.
    « Reply #2 on: March 04, 2011, 07:01:35 AM »
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  • This illustrates why the answer to the "pope question" that has been discussed (I won't call it a debate because one side, it seems, is imune to facts) is so important.

    If the Novus Ordo is a Catholic service, and it must be if the pope has declared it so, there is no valid reason for not attending, at least occasionally to keep the peace.

    If the Novus Ordo is a Protestant last supper service, which it is, then participating in it while knowing what it truly is, is mortally sinful.

    The question boils down to whether attending the Novus Ordo or the traditional Mass is simply a matter of preference.  If it is all just a matter of preference, then there is no valid argument against the whole Conciliar religion and one should embrace that religion, at least, for the sake of the "dignity of man."

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Obedience and Disobedience.
    « Reply #3 on: March 04, 2011, 07:06:38 AM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    This illustrates why the answer to the "pope question" that has been discussed (I won't call it a debate because one side, it seems, is imune to facts) is so important.

    If the Novus Ordo is a Catholic service, and it must be if the pope has declared it so, there is no valid reason for not attending, at least occasionally to keep the peace.

    If the Novus Ordo is a Protestant last supper service, which it is, then participating in it while knowing what it truly is, is mortally sinful.

    The question boils down to whether attending the Novus Ordo or the traditional Mass is simply a matter of preference.  If it is all just a matter of preference, then there is no valid argument against the whole Conciliar religion and one should embrace that religion, at least, for the sake of the "dignity of man."


    Even if someone accepted the Novus Ordo might be okay in some cases (not that I do) one could still object to going on the grounds of the abuses that happen there.

    Offline CathMomof7

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    Obedience and Disobedience.
    « Reply #4 on: March 04, 2011, 08:43:44 AM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    This illustrates why the answer to the "pope question" that has been discussed (I won't call it a debate because one side, it seems, is imune to facts) is so important.

    If the Novus Ordo is a Catholic service, and it must be if the pope has declared it so, there is no valid reason for not attending, at least occasionally to keep the peace.

    If the Novus Ordo is a Protestant last supper service, which it is, then participating in it while knowing what it truly is, is mortally sinful.

    The question boils down to whether attending the Novus Ordo or the traditional Mass is simply a matter of preference.  If it is all just a matter of preference, then there is no valid argument against the whole Conciliar religion and one should embrace that religion, at least, for the sake of the "dignity of man."


    Not everything in this world is black or white as you suggest.

    For the Mass to be valid, according to my understanding, only 3 things are required: proper form, proper matter, and proper intention.

    It can not be argued that the Novus Ordo uses proper form and matter, the only question that remains then is proper intention.  Does the priest at the Novus Ordo intend to do what the Church has always done.  I argue that it is impossible to know really with a Novus Ordo priest.  

    A Catholic who understands this is not obligated to participate in a Novus Ordo Mass.  However, one could be present there, to keep the peace in the family for example, and not fully participate.  Say a Rosary for example or take your Missal and make a spiritual communion.  

    Having said that, if you don't have to go, don't, especially if the abuses are egregious.  


    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #5 on: March 04, 2011, 09:49:29 AM »
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  • CathMomof7 said:
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    It can not be argued that the Novus Ordo uses proper form and matter,


    Huh?  Of course it can, and has been argued [ against ] over and over again by many people.  Remember that in the Novus Ordo the words of consecration for the wine have been changed.  The correct way is:

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    This is the Chalice of My Blood of the New and Eternal Testament: the Mystery of Faith: which shall be shed for you, and for many to the remission of sins.


    In the Novus Ordo they have the gall to change the words of Christ Himself, saying "for you and for all" instead of "for you and for many."  
    This is a violation of form.  It clearly changes the sense of the consecration to suggest universal salvation, and thus is most likely invalid.  No one can really say for sure, but at any rate, it's wrong.

    There is also the problem that they've changed the Rite of Consecration, and if bishops are invalid, then the priests they "ordain" are also invalid... That is why I don't believe Christ is usually confected in the Eucharist in the Novus Ordo.  The priest would have to have been ordained before a certain point.  And even then, he'd be using this most-likely-invalid form.

    Moreover -- back to Adrienne -- you shouldn't go for the same reason you shouldn't go to a Protestant service, because even to sit there looks like giving some kind of approval to this betrayal of the Church.  Meaning that you would be giving scandal by attending.

    Not everyone would agree with me there, and of course it depends on your own convictions.  It is true we have no formal instructions from Rome yet, no Pope telling us how to behave or what to do.  But that is because Rome has been taken over, as I would like to point out for the legalists.  Like it or not we have to make some decisions ourselves here, hopefully guided by the Holy Ghost.  Waiting for guidance from this group in Rome is like waiting for a piranha to decide to stop eating people and to take up quilt-sewing.  It's illogical to the extreme.  Even the SSPX doesn't really listen to anything Ratzinger says, no one is really guided by this man, nor could they be, because he is incoherent.  
     
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline MaterDominici

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    Obedience and Disobedience.
    « Reply #6 on: March 04, 2011, 10:46:24 AM »
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  • Quote from: Adrienne
    What is a Traditional Catholic still living at home to do when their parents want them to attend the Novus Ordo Mass?

    Does the SSPX have anything to say about situations like these?


    Is your parents' request an occassional one, or a regular one?
    Do they want you to attend the NO weekly INSTEAD of the Tridentine or are they asking that you attend some specific NO service (such as in the case of a family event)?
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline Anna Maria

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    Obedience and Disobedience.
    « Reply #7 on: October 22, 2013, 02:12:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: Adrienne
    What is a Traditional Catholic still living at home to do when their parents want them to attend the Novus Ordo Mass?


    They are not to attend the NO Mass (it would be mortally sinful) even if their parents command it. Since when is it lawful to disobey God in order to obey one's parents?


    Offline poche

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    Obedience and Disobedience.
    « Reply #8 on: October 22, 2013, 11:20:24 PM »
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  • Quote from: Adrienne
    What is a Traditional Catholic still living at home to do when their parents want them to attend the Novus Ordo Mass?

    Does the SSPX have anything to say about situations like these?

    How old are you and what is your education?

    Offline Kreuzritter1945

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    Obedience and Disobedience.
    « Reply #9 on: October 23, 2013, 07:15:13 PM »
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  • I stopped going even though my grandma and mother want me to go.