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Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: CatholicInAmerica on December 15, 2019, 12:13:45 PM

Title: Novus ordo HS student dilemma
Post by: CatholicInAmerica on December 15, 2019, 12:13:45 PM
Ok so my novus ordo high school has these things called “trimester examinations” where we are tested on material that we learned from September to December in each class. The grade you get on this test is 1/3 or your overall average for that trimester. 

Of my 3 years at this school I have disagreed with that some of the religion teachers have said, but nothing in the course itself was heretical. Now however, we are using a textbook by Peter kreeft and I have encountered numerous heresies. My question is: My friends who are trad and I are having a debate over how we should answer heretical questions (what I mean by this is Questions that every Catholic should know the answer to such as “can non Catholics be saved yes or no” where the True Catholic answer would be no but the novus ordo school wants you to select yes). I say we should select the true catholic answer and lose the points off the test. They however say that they think it’s acceptable to choose the non Catholic answer. What should we do?

Thank you. 
Title: Re: Novus ordo HS student dilemma
Post by: Ladislaus on December 15, 2019, 03:40:13 PM
I would answer the question the way the book presents it ... but I would write a comment next to it saying, "this is what the book says, but it is wrong".  That way you do not implicitly profess heresy.  Alternatively, you can write a disclaimer at the top of the test indicating, "I am answering these questions in accordance with the book, and these answers do not represent my own opinions, as I disagree with many of them."

It's unjust of them to penalize you for rejecting their heresy.  
Title: Re: Novus ordo HS student dilemma
Post by: songbird on December 15, 2019, 05:52:26 PM
Answer it no.  This question is no "opinion".  

When you face your Lord, how do you wish to face Him?  
Title: Re: Novus ordo HS student dilemma
Post by: ByzCat3000 on December 15, 2019, 07:36:07 PM
That question itself is even more frustrating if you take Lefebvre's position like I do, but broadly speaking I'd just agree with Ladislaus there.  That at least demonstrates that you do in fact know what answers that are expected of you, and that you sometimes intentionally disagree, rather than that you simply don't know what they expect.  I'm guessing they wouldn't penalize for that unless they're really fanatical
Title: Re: Novus ordo HS student dilemma
Post by: poche on December 15, 2019, 11:50:20 PM
Here is a way that you can answer that question that is provided by the Baltimore Catechism;

Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?
A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person:
1.(1) Has been validly baptized;
2.(2) Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and
3.(3) Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.

Q. 511. Why do we say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the CatholicChurch to be the true Church?
A. We say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, because the necessary conditions are not often found, especially that of dying in a state of grace without making use of the Sacrament of Penance.

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resources/catechism/baltimore-catechism/lesson-11-on-the-church
Title: Re: Novus ordo HS student dilemma
Post by: Mark 79 on December 16, 2019, 12:42:42 AM
Psalm 34  (Psalm of David)

Judge thou, O Lord, them that wrong me: overthrow them that fight against me.
Take hold of arms and shield: and rise up to help me.
Bring out the sword, and shut up the way against them that persecute me: say to my soul:
I am thy salvation.
Let them be confounded and ashamed that seek after my soul. Let them be turned back and be confounded that devise against me.
Let them become as dust before the wind: and let the angel of the Lord straiten them.
Let their way become dark and slippery; and let the angel of the Lord pursue them.
For without cause they have hidden their net for me unto destruction: without cause they have upbraided my soul.
Let the snare which he knoweth not come upon him: and let the net which he hath hidden  catch him: and into that very snare let them fall.
But my soul shall rejoice in the Lord; and shall be delighted in his salvation.
All my bones shall say: Lord, who is like to thee? Who deliverest the poor from the hand of them that are stronger than he; the needy and the poor from them that strip him.
Unjust witnesses rising up have asked me things I knew not.
They repaid me evil for good: to the depriving me of my soul.
But as for me, when they were troublesome to me, I was clothed with haircloth. I humbled my soul with fasting; and my prayer shall be turned into my bosom.
As a neighbor and as an own brother, so did I please: as one mourning and sorrowful so was I humbled.
But they rejoiced against me, and came together: scourges were gathered together upon me, and I knew not.
They were separated, and repented not: they tempted me, they scoffed at me with scorn: they gnashed upon me with their teeth.
Lord, when wilt thou look upon me? rescue thou my soul from their malice: my only one from the lions.
I will give thanks to thee in a great church; I will praise thee in a strong people.
Let not them that are my enemies wrongfully rejoice over me: who have hated me without cause, and wink with the eyes.
For they spoke indeed peaceably to me; and speaking in the anger of the earth they devised guile.
And they opened their mouth wide against me; they said: Well done, well done, our eyes have seen it.
Thou hast seen, O Lord, be not thou silent: O Lord, depart not from me.
Arise, and be attentive to my judgment: to my cause, my God, and my Lord.
Judge me, O Lord my God according to thy justice, and let them not rejoice over me.
Let them not say in their hearts: It is well, it is well, to our mind: neither let them say: We have swallowed him up.
Let them blush: and be ashamed together, who rejoice at my evils. Let them be clothed with confusion and shame, who speak great things against me.
Let them rejoice and be glad, who are well pleased with my justice, and let them say always: The Lord be magnified, who delights in the peace of his servant.
And my tongue shall meditate thy justice, thy praise all the day long.
Title: Re: Novus ordo HS student dilemma
Post by: poche on December 16, 2019, 05:22:38 AM
Here is a way that you can answer that question that is provided by the Baltimore Catechism;

Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?
A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person:
1.(1) Has been validly baptized;
2.(2) Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and
3.(3) Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.

Q. 511. Why do we say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the CatholicChurch to be the true Church?
A. We say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, because the necessary conditions are not often found, especially that of dying in a state of grace without making use of the Sacrament of Penance.

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resources/catechism/baltimore-catechism/lesson-11-on-the-church
A correct answer would be that if the person did not know that the Catholic Church is the true Faith (or words to that effect) then they could be saved.
Title: Re: Novus ordo HS student dilemma
Post by: Ladislaus on December 16, 2019, 05:43:44 AM
Here is a way that you can answer that question that is provided by the Baltimore Catechism;

Stop digressing into individual topics.  He just gave one thing as an example, as I'm sure there's no shortage of heresies being taught at your average Novus Ordo High School.
Title: Re: Novus ordo HS student dilemma
Post by: Frank on December 16, 2019, 06:43:58 AM
I have a son in a similar situation. I advised him to give the incorrect "book answer" and then state very clearly that this is the wrong answer and not the Church teaching..... but.... and here is the big point... you CANNOT say that the true teaching is merely your opinion!!!! NEVER!  This wreaks of a modernist "faith" where truth is lowered to your personal opinion.

This is a great opportunity to gain a battle scar for Out Lord. 
You are lucky. Don't blow it.
Title: Re: Novus ordo HS student dilemma
Post by: CatholicInAmerica on December 16, 2019, 10:51:10 AM
I would answer the question the way the book presents it ... but I would write a comment next to it saying, "this is what the book says, but it is wrong".  That way you do not implicitly profess heresy.  Alternatively, you can write a disclaimer at the top of the test indicating, "I am answering these questions in accordance with the book, and these answers do not represent my own opinions, as I disagree with many of them."

It's unjust of them to penalize you for rejecting their heresy.  
This could’ve worked except our tests are fully digital. If there is an essay which they expect me to write heretical things in then I will put “kreeft says...”. Also, my teacher who is a brother has told me in class (because I showed him infalliable quotes that contradict his Vatican II error) that I must “conform to the modern Catholic faith or you (me, CatholicInAmerica) will not be in this class or in this school” so I am trying to keep my faith and not get into too much trouble. My parents have sacrificed to afford the tuition so I’m just trying to finish out the year and never touch that place again.


Do you have any other suggestions as the test is on the iPad and I cannot write anything u less it’s in the essay section. 

I agree that it’s unjust they penalize me for not going along with their heresy. There are Greek “orthodox” kids in the school and even atheist. I think my school doesn’t persecute the atheists because the atheist don’t have any moral compass and have no problem choosing things they disagree with. 
Title: Re: Novus ordo HS student dilemma
Post by: CatholicInAmerica on December 16, 2019, 11:04:03 AM
On the test from last year this was the biggest heresy I could find: 

“99. “Outside the Church there is no salvation,” a formula from the early Church Fathers, means that non-Catholics cannot be saved. True or false”

They expect you to put false.
Title: Re: Novus ordo HS student dilemma
Post by: Ladislaus on December 16, 2019, 11:16:07 AM
On the test from last year this was the biggest heresy I could find:

“99. “Outside the Church there is no salvation,” a formula from the early Church Fathers, means that non-Catholics cannot be saved. True or false”

They expect you to put false.

If there's no option to clarify, especially if it's just one, take the hit.  People have given their lives and undergone torture in order not to make even a token denial of faith.  I would simply answer true, get the point off, and carry on.

By the way, I'll put money on it that this school takes state funding.  If this Brother goes on record one more time saying that you can't be in the school without conforming to their religion, then get that on record ... and you have a religious discrimination lawsuit.
Title: Re: Novus ordo HS student dilemma
Post by: CatholicInAmerica on December 16, 2019, 11:35:42 AM
If there's no option to clarify, especially if it's just one, take the hit.  People have given their lives and undergone torture in order not to make even a token denial of faith.  I would simply answer true, get the point off, and carry on.

By the way, I'll put money on it that this school takes state funding.  If this Brother goes on record one more time saying that you can't be in the school without conforming to their religion, then get that on record ... and you have a religious discrimination lawsuit.
I will pm you the specifics.
Title: Re: Novus ordo HS student dilemma
Post by: CatholicInAmerica on December 16, 2019, 04:50:43 PM
I have a son in a similar situation. I advised him to give the incorrect "book answer" and then state very clearly that this is the wrong answer and not the Church teaching..... but.... and here is the big point... you CANNOT say that the true teaching is merely your opinion!!!! NEVER!  This wreaks of a modernist "faith" where truth is lowered to your personal opinion.

This is a great opportunity to gain a battle scar for Out Lord.
You are lucky. Don't blow it.
I’d do that if the test was paper format but it’s digital and on an iPad. 
Title: Re: Novus ordo HS student dilemma
Post by: Frank on December 16, 2019, 08:32:40 PM
Then you must answer with the truth.  You get one wrong on the test, and an atta-boy from God.
Title: Re: Novus ordo HS student dilemma
Post by: poche on December 16, 2019, 11:09:05 PM
Stop digressing into individual topics.  He just gave one thing as an example, as I'm sure there's no shortage of heresies being taught at your average Novus Ordo High School.
In this example there is an out that is provided by the Baltimore Catechism. It is not a heresy to say that a person who is afflicted by an invincible ignorance can be saved if he has good will. the angels sang, "et in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntatis." which means "and on earth peace to men of good will." 
Title: Re: Novus ordo HS student dilemma
Post by: Mark 79 on December 17, 2019, 10:55:36 AM
But it is a LIE to falsify Scripture.
Title: Re: Novus ordo HS student dilemma
Post by: ByzCat3000 on December 17, 2019, 11:37:56 AM
In this example there is an out that is provided by the Baltimore Catechism. It is not a heresy to say that a person who is afflicted by an invincible ignorance can be saved if he has good will. the angels sang, "et in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntatis." which means "and on earth peace to men of good will."
I know the Baltimore catechism answer isn’t well liked here, and Catholic in America doesn’t agree with it (which removes that option) but I have a hard time even pigeonholing that answer as a “false” answer to the quiz question.  It’s more like “true, unless” 
Title: Re: Novus ordo HS student dilemma
Post by: CatholicInAmerica on December 17, 2019, 04:20:17 PM
UPDATE: 

Took test today and I think the teacher purposefully worded every question as: “kreeft says” or “the textbook says”. Turns out I didn’t have to get any one “wrong” in their eyes. Thanks for the good advice. 
Title: Re: Novus ordo HS student dilemma
Post by: Spork on December 17, 2019, 04:53:40 PM
This school needs to do a better job of teaching you composition skills, IMHO. 
Title: Re: Novus ordo HS student dilemma
Post by: CatholicInAmerica on December 17, 2019, 06:22:04 PM
This school needs to do a better job of teaching you composition skills, IMHO.
if I were worrying about my diction I’d be typing proper sentences and use appropriate punctuation. I’m not, however. I am posting to an Internet forum with strangers that don’t know who I am. It took me maybe 2 seconds each to type all my messages. I am not so worried about my composition as I am my soul. 
Title: Re: Novus ordo HS student dilemma
Post by: poche on December 19, 2019, 10:45:17 PM
But it is a LIE to falsify Scripture.
We are not falsifying scripture by saying that those who invincibly do not know that the Catholic Church is the true Church can be saved. 
Title: Re: Novus ordo HS student dilemma
Post by: poche on December 19, 2019, 10:58:44 PM
I know the Baltimore catechism answer isn’t well liked here, and Catholic in America doesn’t agree with it (which removes that option) but I have a hard time even pigeonholing that answer as a “false” answer to the quiz question.  It’s more like “true, unless”
The Baltimore Catechism is the catechism that was used prior to Vatican II in the United States. Prior to coming to this forum the only criticism of the Baltimore Catechism came from modernist and modernist-friendly people who didn't like that it presented a solid background in what the Catholic Church taught.
Title: Re: Novus ordo HS student dilemma
Post by: Mark 79 on December 20, 2019, 01:17:31 AM
We are not falsifying scripture by saying that those who invincibly do not know that the Catholic Church is the true Church can be saved.
You falsified scripture when you claimed for your proud convenience:

Quote
Quote from: poche on November 07, 2019, 04:55:39 AM
"And the gates of Hell shall not prevail against you" -Jesus to Peter
https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/is-francis-the-pope/msg674301/#msg674301 (https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/is-francis-the-pope/msg674301/#msg674301)
 

Title: Re: Novus ordo HS student dilemma
Post by: Mark 79 on December 20, 2019, 06:13:51 AM
You UNREPENTANT LIAR. You used QUOTATION MARKS:

Quote from: poche on November 07, 2019, 04:55:39 AM
"And the gates of Hell shall not prevail against you" -Jesus to Peter
https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/is-francis-the-pope/msg674301/#msg674301 (https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/is-francis-the-pope/msg674301/#msg674301)

Title: Re: Novus ordo HS student dilemma
Post by: Spork on December 22, 2019, 12:58:52 PM
if I were worrying about my diction I’d be typing proper sentences and use appropriate punctuation. I’m not, however. I am posting to an Internet forum with strangers that don’t know who I am. It took me maybe 2 seconds each to type all my messages. I am not so worried about my composition as I am my soul.
who

Your piety is admirable. 
Title: Re: Novus ordo HS student dilemma
Post by: Nadir on December 23, 2019, 01:10:00 AM
if I were worrying about my diction I’d be typing proper sentences and use appropriate punctuation. I’m not, however. I am posting to an Internet forum with strangers that don’t know who I am. It took me maybe 2 seconds each to type all my messages. I am not so worried about my composition as I am my soul.
Spork makes a good point.


If you are worried about your soul, you will attempt to do all things well. That includes writing to strangers on internet. It is not a good idea to get into the habit of using sloppy language.