Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: sedevacantist3 on April 30, 2017, 01:43:10 PM
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My wife's best friend (baptized catholic) is going out with a divorced catholic. There are talks that he will propose. I told the wife I wouldn't be able to go since it wouldn't be a Catholic wedding. Even though I already rejected a friend of mine's wedding on the same basis now she is freaking out since it's her best friend. Our relationship is already on shaky ground so this issue can have the potential to cause a separation. In reading the following article I was wondering if the following paragraph was true or a novus ordo invention.
"Canon law does not prohibit Catholics from attending invalid weddings, Father Pacwa explained, but he said that Catholics must discern carefully. “Every situation will call upon our reserves of prayer, discernment and evaluation,” he said. “And a good confession before making any decision is always a good idea.”
http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/the-other-marriage-debate
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Forget it's not a "Catholic wedding"...it's not a wedding at all; he's still married. They're just going to shack up according to man's law.
Prior to Vat II we were prohibited from attending a valid protestant wedding because we were not allowed to worship with anyone outside the Catholic Church.
Your wife needs to decide who she wants to please, God or her best friend. In this case human respect is the wrong choice.
If this is her "best friend" will she be asked to be Matron of Honour? In this case that would certainly be condoning their sin.
Sorry to hear this could be a deal breaker....I hope it's not.
As for Canon law I think they are talking about weddings performed where both parties are actually FREE to marry.
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Forget it's not a "Catholic wedding"...it's not a wedding at all; he's still married. They're just going to shack up according to man's law.
Prior to Vat II we were prohibited from attending a valid protestant wedding because we were not allowed to worship with anyone outside the Catholic Church.
Your wife needs to decide who she wants to please, God or her best friend. In this case human respect is the wrong choice.
If this is her "best friend" will she be asked to be Matron of Honour? That would certainly be condoning their sin.
Sorry to hear this could be a deal breaker....I hope it's not.
As for Canon law I think they are talking about weddings performed where both parties are actually FREE to marry.
Sorry I clicked quote instead of modify
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Theoretically, you could attend. One of the reasons that canonists give is grave civil duty. However, as you point out, the marriage is properly invalid. Don't "celebrate" it. You don't need to go out of your way to tell anyone that it's an invalid marriage, but you should refrain from advancing congratulations or any other positive action that would be construed as an approval of the union.
And of course, no positive acts of worship during the (non-Catholic) service. Sitting in the back with a rosary, if possible, is a great way to avoid being pressured into such actions.
See if your wife would be happy just attending the reception.
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Theoretically, you could attend. One of the reasons that canonists give is grave civil duty.
You can't attend theoretically or any other way. HE'S MARRIED unless he's gotten an annulment.
This does not fall under civil duty. Social maybe.
Attendance would condone his sin thereby causing scandal.
Parents of divorced children have to make this decision all the time and it breaks their hearts.
This is just a friend.
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You can't attend theoretically or any other way. HE'S MARRIED unless he's gotten an annulment.
This does not fall under civil duty. Social maybe.
Attendance would condone his sin thereby causing scandal.
Parents of divorced children have to make this decision all the time and it breaks their hearts.
This is just a friend.
The civil duty is to his wife; "keeping the peace" within a family, so to speak. If OP is literally faced with a choice between attending this service or getting divorced, such a situation is the archetypal situation considered by canonists and moralists as, if any, a situation that could allow passive attendance.
The OP asked if the material he found was a Novus Ordo innovation. It is not. It is correct to say that canon law does not forbid attendance of an invalid marriage. It forbids active participation in non-Catholic worship. This includes weddings and funerals. And I'm not even talking about the Novus Ordo canon law, I'm talking about the 1917 CIC, which the OP, as a sedevacantist, is following.
Of course it's true that scandal, perversion, etc. must be avoided or rendered remote in either event. Hence the recommendation of sitting quietly in the back with a rosary. Also, the question if the wife would be satisfied attending the reception and not the ceremony itself.
It's very confusing, of course, especially when these things happen in the Novus Ordo.
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OP, you might benefit from consulting McHugh and Callan (or any moralists you might own) to get a better handle on all the conditions required for lawful, passive attendance at some non-Catholic ceremony or another:
http://archive.org/stream/moraltheologyaco35354gut/35354.txt (esp. para 973 ff.)
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Prior to Vat II we were prohibited from attending a valid protestant wedding because we were not allowed to worship with anyone outside the Catholic Church.
This isn't correct. Active participation at Protestant, or other non-Catholic, weddings was prohibited, but passive attendance was permitted prior to Vatican II.
Canon 1258
It is unlawful for the faithful to assist in any active manner, or to take part, in the sacred services of non-Catholics.
Merely passive or material presence may be tolerated on account of a civil office, or for the purpose of showing respect to persons, to be approved in doubtful cases by the bishop for grave reasons, at funerals of non-Catholics, at their marriages, and similar solemnities, provided there is danger of neither perversion nor scandal.
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My wife's best friend (baptized catholic) is going out with a divorced catholic. There are talks that he will propose. I told the wife I wouldn't be able to go since it wouldn't be a Catholic wedding. Even though I already rejected a friend of mine's wedding on the same basis now she is freaking out since it's her best friend. Our relationship is already on shaky ground so this issue can have the potential to cause a separation. In reading the following article I was wondering if the following paragraph was true or a novus ordo invention.
"Canon law does not prohibit Catholics from attending invalid weddings, Father Pacwa explained, but he said that Catholics must discern carefully. “Every situation will call upon our reserves of prayer, discernment and evaluation,” he said. “And a good confession before making any decision is always a good idea.”
http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/the-other-marriage-debate
You can't attend their celebration of going to hell together. How's that for being direct? That is exactly what they are choosing if the abandon the faith and shack up together.
Now, as for your wife's best friend, she should have been advised from the beginning never to date men they could not marry.
I found out one day that a female relative was going to marry a divorced Catholic. I think the man had an annulment (ANYONE can get an annulment today). I immediately wrote her an "anonymous friend" letter telling her many things, in brief, that it was a big mistake, that an annulment today meant nothing, that the person would leave her just as he left the other, that she deserved much better .... I sent the letter to a friend in another state and had him mail it in a new envelope. I did my job, and I prayed for her and and let God sort out the rest.
I found out like two months later that the wedding was off, that she had caught him cheating on her. God sorted it out.
As you can see, the important objective here has nothing to do with you attending the wedding, but both of you convincing the "best friend" to choose God rather than this unfaithful divorcee.
No one is lost without knowing it, and no one is deceived without wanting to be. (St. Teresa of Avila)
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My understanding is the same as what Mithrandylan has said. If you can skip out with no serious consequences, then don't go. But, if not attending would cause greater harm (for example, damaging your immediate family situation) then it is permissible to attend passively. If choosing that option, I would make sure your wife knows exactly what your motivations are.
It doesn't sound like your wife is terribly concerned with her friend's soul, but another example would be if her attendance would allow her to continue to be a positive example for her friend and non-attendance would mean an end to the friendship, she would be allowed to attend, but not to participate.
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Sorry Mater but it sounds as if you're saying "go along to get along" both with the girlfriend and the husband with the wife.
If the husband gives in on this possible deal breaker to his marriage it could be worse than not going to the wedding as the wife will threaten the marriage whenever she wants her way in the future.
What happened to the catholic stance that the man is the head of the family and has the final word regarding the faith? This would turn the authority over to the wife. Also the wife should be concerned about her own soul before trying to be an example to her friend.
As for Canon law I don't believe they are talking about a divorced situation.
Would you still interpret Canon law the same way if the wife's girlfriend was a lesbian marrying another woman?
The marriage would be invalid.
A sin is a sin and we can't condone it.
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I think you need to consult a good priest.
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Sorry Mater but it sounds as if you're saying "go along to get along" both with the girlfriend and the husband with the wife.
If the husband gives in on this possible deal breaker to his marriage it could be worse than not going to the wedding as the wife will threaten the marriage whenever she wants her way in the future.
What happened to the catholic stance that the man is the head of the family and has the final word regarding the faith? This would turn the authority over to the wife. Also the wife should be concerned about her own soul before trying to be an example to her friend.
As for Canon law I don't believe they are talking about a divorced situation.
Would you still interpret Canon law the same way if the wife's girlfriend was a lesbian marrying another woman?
The marriage would be invalid.
A sin is a sin and we can't condone it.
I, too, do not know if that part of Canon Law only applies to valid marriages or all non-Catholic services. It seems to me, though, that it would have spelled out "valid only" if that was an intended limitation.
I think at the time the Law was written, a marriage to a divorcee would have fallen under "scandalous".
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Would you still interpret Canon law
This is why we have Canon lawyers. Lay people are singularly unqualified to "interpret Canon Law".
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I told the wife I wouldn't be able to go since it wouldn't be a Catholic wedding. Even though I already rejected a friend of mine's wedding on the same basis now she is freaking out since it's her best friend. Our relationship is already on shaky ground so this issue can have the potential to cause a separation.
If he is divorced then it is not a marriage at all, let alone a Catholic one. If his marriage was annulled it is a different matter. You make no mention of annulment. There is a difference between divorce and annulment.
It is not good enough to say, as one poster has done, that anyone can get an annulment. There are some annulments which are justified and not all can be dismissed.
If you really meant he is divorced then stick to your word. Don't go.
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You can't attend their celebration of going to hell together. How's that for being direct? That is exactly what they are choosing if the abandon the faith and shack up together.
Now, as for your wife's best friend, she should have been advised from the beginning never to date men they could not marry.
I found out one day that a female relative was going to marry a divorced Catholic. I think the man had an annulment (ANYONE can get an annulment today). I immediately wrote her an "anonymous friend" letter telling her many things, in brief, that it was a big mistake, that an annulment today meant nothing, that the person would leave her just as he left the other, that she deserved much better .... I sent the letter to a friend in another state and had him mail it in a new envelope. I did my job, and I prayed for her and and let God sort out the rest.
I found out like two months later that the wedding was off, that she had caught him cheating on her. God sorted it out.
As you can see, the important objective here has nothing to do with you attending the wedding, but both of you convincing the "best friend" to choose God rather than this unfaithful divorcee.
No one is lost without knowing it, and no one is deceived without wanting to be. (St. Teresa of Avila)
brother I can't convince anyone to see things my way, my wife's friends think of me as a likeable extremist, and responding to another post I'm not in a marriage where the wife has accepted my authority as head of the family, I converted to the traditional faith 5 yrs ago, been married 15...she's grudgingly accepted a lot of changes but it has definitely taken it's toll..most women of today would have been long gone...I'm not contemplating attending the ceremony..it's the after party ..the wife would go 100% and I can't convince her not to... if I'm not there who knows what she will do...we have other serious issues of disagreement and this could be the nail in the coffin
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Do you have children?
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Do you have children?
yes 3, if not I would have made a different decision years back
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Theoretically, you could attend. One of the reasons that canonists give is grave civil duty. However, as you point out, the marriage is properly invalid. Don't "celebrate" it. You don't need to go out of your way to tell anyone that it's an invalid marriage, but you should refrain from advancing congratulations or any other positive action that would be construed as an approval of the union.
And of course, no positive acts of worship during the (non-Catholic) service. Sitting in the back with a rosary, if possible, is a great way to avoid being pressured into such actions.
See if your wife would be happy just attending the reception.
I agree with Mithrandylan on this question. Your vocation in this life is your own wife. If this is really important to the well being of your marriage then I recommend going with your wife to the ceremony and avoid getting into arguments about the invalidity of the wedding.
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I agree with Mithrandylan on this question. Your vocation in this life is your own wife. If this is really important to the well being of your marriage then I recommend going with your wife to the ceremony (celebration of sin.) and avoid getting into arguments about the invalidity of the wedding (this celebration of them shacking up).
Martyrs happily went to death by hacking rather than burn incense to the gods. "Catholics" today recommend going to a celebration of a couple taking the road to hell, rather than displease the wife. No conviction.
"But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth".
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I think you need to consult a good priest.
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Yes, he does. Hopefully he can find one.
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I'm not sure exactly from where such a thorough misunderstanding about what our obligations are when faced with an invitation to some non-Catholic event or another, but there's a fair amount of it. I have seen posters on this forum over the years, at least three or four different ones as my memory serves, describe severing ties with family members over, for instance, the refusal to attend a Novus Ordo officiated wedding (even if valid).
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The truth of the matter is, there is not a categorical obligation to behave in this way. All canonists and moralists admit that if certain conditions are met, the passive attendance of such an event is lawful. Those conditions can't always be met, and when they can't be, then you can't attend. But if they are, then you can.
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No Catholic is compelled to attend a non-Catholic wedding. The question is whether or not attendance is absolutely prohibited, and if not, under what conditions can a person attend?
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Miseremini: when we get our information from canonical commentaries, we are not "interpreting canon law." That's what we'd be doing if we went to the law and then tried to tell someone what it means. Going to an approved commentary text is virtually the same as consulting a canon lawyer. These commentaries were written by scholars with the highest sense of legal and Catholic propriety, and then approved by the Church to teach her seminarians (who'd be coming into contact with the law, especially marriage laws, every day for the rest of their life).
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And those sources do not differentiate between valid and invalid marriages-- they all fall into the category of "non-Catholic" marriages, or civil marriages.
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Martyrs happily went to death by hacking rather than burn incense to the gods. "Catholics" today recommend going to a celebration of a couple taking the road to hell, rather than displease the wife. No conviction.
"But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth".
I actually didn't recommend anything. I answered the OP's question. It's everyone else (who thinks he positively can't go) who are recommending a course of action. I posted materials and some principles used by Catholic sources (pre-Vatican II authors, not post-Vatican II Internet posters) when considering such a situation. No "incense is being burned" in this case.
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I simply answered the man's question, which was about whether or not the material he found is Novus Ordo or Catholic. The principle quoted (that attendance of invalid marriages is not intrinsically prohibited) is found in orthodox, pre-conciliar works. I provided a few sources to prove this.
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Martyrs die happily, but not hastily nor rashly. Consider St. Thomas More. He not only delayed martyrdom, using the law to his advantage throughout the entire Boleyn affair, keeping silence and remaining "the King's man" in all things. St. Thomas said that it is a Catholic's duty to avoid martyrdom as long as it can be avoided.
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There might be multiple options here which would all be permissible. I would just say that you should consult a good priest, pray much about it, consider the option which you believe would give God the greatest honor and glory, and humbly ask Our Lady to help you decide and execute.
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This isn't correct. Active participation at Protestant, or other non-Catholic, weddings was prohibited, but passive attendance was permitted prior to Vatican II.
Canon 1258
It is unlawful for the faithful to assist in any active manner, or to take part, in the sacred services of non-Catholics.
Merely passive or material presence may be tolerated on account of a civil office, or for the purpose of showing respect to persons, to be approved in doubtful cases by the bishop for grave reasons, at funerals of non-Catholics, at their marriages, and similar solemnities, provided there is danger of neither perversion nor scandal.
It says clearly that it is to be approved by the bishop for grave reasons. That does not sound like passive attendance was so lightly taken. Notice they do not say to ask your priest.
It sure looks like we have a case here of "Catholics" bringing forward opinions according to what they want to hear "itchy ears seeking teachers according to their own desires".
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It appears that some think attending the "occasion" will be the end of it.
This is just the beginning of more problems for the poor OP.
After the occasion will the best friends part? NO
Will the women want to socialize as couples? Probably
Will the women want to entertain each other as couples in their homes? Probably
If the guy has children, will they be included in socializing? Probably when he has them for his weekend.
ALL THE CHILDREN in this situation are innocent.
How will the OP possibly explain to his children that divorce is wrong when
he is being forced to socialize with a divorcee thereby appearing to condone it.
Actions speak louder than words to children.
Where is the OP's primary duty when there is a conflict, to his wife's wishes or his children's moral upbringing?
If this situation involved ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs no one would be having different opinions,
Yet both situations are mortal sins and they are public scandals to the Catholic observer.
I don't believe Canon law had public scandal in mind when it wrote what was posted here.
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If this situation involved ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs no one the "self acclaimed canonists" here would be having different opinions,
yet both situations are mortal sins of the worst order and they are public scandals to the Catholic observer.
Very good point.
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This is just the beginning of more problems for the poor OP.
After the occasion will the best friends part? NO
The issue isn't just that the two women are best friends but that there are other situations where his marriage is having problems. Sometimes it is more prudential to give in to some things in order to achieve a greater good. If there is one thing we learned in the South from the cινιℓ ωαr it is that you can win the battle and lose the war.
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How will the OP possibly explain to his children that divorce is wrong when
he is being forced to socialize with a divorcee thereby appearing to condone it.
Actions speak louder than words to children.
No one is obligated to discuss all the evil about other people, especially with children. We don't have to spread gossip or discuss all of the faults of our neighbors with the children. We teach the children the difference between right and wrong and how to think for themselves and then we hope that tehy make good decisions in their own lives.
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How will the OP possibly explain to his children that divorce is wrong when
he is being forced to socialize with a divorcee thereby appearing to condone it.
Actions speak louder than words to children.
Where is the OP's primary duty when there is a conflict, to his wife's wishes or his children's moral upbringing?
no one is obligated to discuss this other couple's faults and sins with their own children or anybody else for that matter.
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If this situation involved ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs no one would be having different opinions,
Yet both situations are mortal sins and they are public scandals to the Catholic observer.
I don't believe Canon law had public scandal in mind when it wrote what was posted here.
In the OP they were not talking about "gαy" marriage. Cannon Law cannot cover every instance because there are so many different variables involved.
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brother I can't convince anyone to see things my way, my wife's friends think of me as a likeable extremist, and responding to another post I'm not in a marriage where the wife has accepted my authority as head of the family, I converted to the traditional faith 5 yrs ago, been married 15...she's grudgingly accepted a lot of changes but it has definitely taken it's toll..most women of today would have been long gone...I'm not contemplating attending the ceremony..it's the after party ..the wife would go 100% and I can't convince her not to... if I'm not there who knows what she will do...we have other serious issues of disagreement and this could be the nail in the coffin
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If I'm reading this correctly, you are not expected to attend the ceremony, but just the reception? That's good, though still sorry this pressure and familial strife has been placed on you. As Our Lord said, He comes to bring the sword and a man's enemies shall be those of his own household. It can be very challenging to be the only practicing traditional Catholic in a family. Perservere in patience and charity and I'm sure your efforts will be rewarded.
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And if I'm reading you correctly then the moral obligations on you are somewhat less severe, since no religious practices will be involved. Practically speaking, in your position, I'd just keep a safe distance at the reception to avoid giving scandal. No voluntary congratulations, if you're approached say something like "good food here" or "I like the bartender", etc.
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If there is a well-formed priest you trust, it would also be advantageous to discuss how best to handle the event. He may have some suggestions based on experience and knowledge of the moral principles at play.
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Greetings.
What a dilemma. But the $64,000 question is this: why is this shaking your relationship? Do either you or your wife realize that marriage is not about you or her, but God? Apparently either one, or both parties, do not. Compromising your ideals to placate your wife is a very bad idea. I am tempted to say that she is just looking for a "causus bellam" and if this is not it, she may well find another. Stand by your ideals. In a worst case scenario, she will throw a tantrum and leave. But I will bet that once she sees what the grass is like on the other side of the fence and realizes she has "blown her wad" you both will kindle a deeper relationship. Life is often tested by storms. I know men who have gone through exactly the same thing, did the right thing, and came out the better for it. And I know men who did the wrong thing and it led to disasters far worse than the nightmare they wanted to avoid. Do the right thing and support Catholic marriage. In the long run you will be respected.
In the Holy Hearts of Jesus and Mary. Our Lady of Fatima, Pray for us, you are our only hope.
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It says clearly that it is to be approved by the bishop for grave reasons. That does not sound like passive attendance was so lightly taken. Notice they do not say to ask your priest.
It sure looks like we have a case here of "Catholics" bringing forward opinions according to what they want to hear "itchy ears seeking teachers according to their own desires".
I believe my post was clear, and sorry if it wasn't, that I was responding only to Miseremini's incorrect assertion that prior to Vatican II, Catholics was forbidden from attending all Protestant weddings. That assertion is clearly wrong, and I cited the canon for that purpose only.
Also, the canon's requirement for permission from the bishop is only required "in doubtful cases." Admittedly, I do not know what constituted a "doubtful case" in 1917, but clearly there were cases that were not "doubtful" that did not require any kind of approval.
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Back in the early 1950's I was not aware of Canon law as we all depended upon our priests to decide what was allowed. Each parish back then had 3 or 4 or more priests per parish.
My family was forbidden to attend a Protestant wedding albeit we could go to a funeral.
Whether this was Canon law or diocesan norm or parish custom,we didn't know, but we knew enough not
to disobey the priests. This was a time when priests new every parishoner well.
In school I remember the nuns warning us about relationships with protestants and that we couldn't be bridesmaids for our protestant friends, which made sense because we were thoroughly taught never to enter a protestant church.
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I believe my post was clear, and sorry if it wasn't, that I was responding only to Miseremini's incorrect assertion that prior to Vatican II, Catholics was forbidden from attending all Protestant weddings. That assertion is clearly wrong, and I cited the canon for that purpose only.
Also, the canon's requirement for permission from the bishop is only required "in doubtful cases." Admittedly, I do not know what constituted a "doubtful case" in 1917, but clearly there were cases that were not "doubtful" that did not require any kind of approval.
Once again, It sure looks like we have a case here of "Catholics" bringing forward opinions according to what they want to hear "itchy ears seeking teachers according to their own desires", you are saying that clearly there were cases that were not doubtfull, you are picking and choosing according to your own desires. That canon law you posted leaves very little room for doubt about whether we can go to or not to an adulterous "marriage" as described by the OP. It is clear that we can't, yet you continue to read it according to your own desires.
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If I'm reading this correctly, you are not expected to attend the ceremony, but just the reception? That's good, though still sorry this pressure and familial strife has been placed on you. As Our Lord said, He comes to bring the sword and a man's enemies shall be those of his own household. It can be very challenging to be the only practicing traditional Catholic in a family. Perservere in patience and charity and I'm sure your efforts will be rewarded.
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And if I'm reading you correctly then the moral obligations on you are somewhat less severe, since no religious practices will be involved. Practically speaking, in your position, I'd just keep a safe distance at the reception to avoid giving scandal. No voluntary congratulations, if you're approached say something like "good food here" or "I like the bartender", etc.
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If there is a well-formed priest you trust, it would also be advantageous to discuss how best to handle the event. He may have some suggestions based on experience and knowledge of the moral principles at play.
the wife will attend the ceremony and if I don't go it won't be a big deal, if i don't attend the reception she will be embarrassed and get the pity remarks like your husband is something else, extremist..she will get pity...if I'm 100% sure this decision could ruin my chances at salvation i will not go...are you saying congratulating the bride here would be me giving scandal? not sure towards who? the people there would be all modernist novus ordo or some other non Christian denomination , i have no traditional Catholic family or friends, zero ..I will ask my priestnext month when I see him next..hopefully his so called wedding will be late next year
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Greetings.
What a dilemma. But the $64,000 question is this: why is this shaking your relationship? Do either you or your wife realize that marriage is not about you or her, but God? Apparently either one, or both parties, do not. Compromising your ideals to placate your wife is a very bad idea. I am tempted to say that she is just looking for a "causus bellam" and if this is not it, she may well find another. Stand by your ideals. In a worst case scenario, she will throw a tantrum and leave. But I will bet that once she sees what the grass is like on the other side of the fence and realizes she has "blown her wad" you both will kindle a deeper relationship. Life is often tested by storms. I know men who have gone through exactly the same thing, did the right thing, and came out the better for it. And I know men who did the wrong thing and it led to disasters far worse than the nightmare they wanted to avoid. Do the right thing and support Catholic marriage. In the long run you will be respected.
In the Holy Hearts of Jesus and Mary. Our Lady of Fatima, Pray for us, you are our only hope.
This per se is not shaking my relationship, it's an accuмulation of all my anti modernist views, my so called extremist take on things, 5 years ago I jumped ship from novus ordo and my outlook on life now is basically I was doomed to hell, all my friends and family are doomed, I can't get them (my wife included) to look at life differently and to realize that few are saved, that we must make salvation the number 1 priority...so it's a constant battle..I'm prepared for separation but I would rather avoid it if possible
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Sede13,
Don't lose hope. You may have a lifelong cross in your wife and family. God has known this from all eternity and it is part of his salvific plan for you. It will eventually lead you to sanctity and salvation. If you make it to the end, it might also lead your wife and many others to heaven also.
Jesus and Mary,
David
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Sede13,
Don't lose hope. You may have a lifelong cross in your wife and family. God has known this from all eternity and it is part of his salvific plan for you. It will eventually lead you to sanctity and salvation. If you make it to the end, it might also lead your wife and many others to heaven also.
Jesus and Mary,
David
thanks, I don't lose hope and I deserve much more punishment for the life I used to lead, will keep you posted when this event becomes official
Davide
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I don't think it can be stated any clearer than the way Fr. Wathen puts it in this sermon. Listen from 3:20 to 5:10 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/0co7r0eche777dl/Living-Our-Convictions-With-Discernment-233%2010%2023%2088.mp3?dl=0)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/0co7r0eche777dl/Living-Our-Convictions-With-Discernment-233%2010%2023%2088.mp3?dl=0)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/0co7r0eche777dl/Living-Our-Convictions-With-Discernment-233%2010%2023%2088.mp3?dl=0)
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the wife will attend the ceremony and if I don't go it won't be a big deal, if i don't attend the reception she will be embarrassed and get the pity remarks like your husband is something else, extremist..she will get pity...if I'm 100% sure this decision could ruin my chances at salvation i will not go...are you saying congratulating the bride here would be me giving scandal? not sure towards who? the people there would be all modernist novus ordo or some other non Christian denomination , i have no traditional Catholic family or friends, zero ..I will ask my priestnext month when I see him next..hopefully his so called wedding will be late next year
Asking your priest is definitely the way to go! When I asked my pastor about whether I should attend my sister's novus ordo wedding he told me that I could go but that I should sit in the back and not participate at all. Sort of like what one would do for a Protestant wedding... I have noticed that people seeing us there but devoutly refraining from taking part makes them think...
Actually... I have a couple childhood friends who are novus ordo and are getting married tomorrow...
I am not sure about going if one of the people was previously married though... I have, gratefully, never had to make such a decision since becoming a traditional Catholic...
You and your family will be in my prayers... :pray: :pray: :pray:
God bless! :)
Rita
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Yes, ANY word or action that would suggest "congratulating" the couple is objective scandal. You cannot congratulate them for undertaking a life of sin and thereby encourage them.
I was in a similar situation and could not bring myself before God to attend ... even to keep peace with my in-laws.
By showing up there and being part of the "celebration", I am participating in a celebration of sin. Can't do it.
NOW ... if it were a presumed valid marriage in a Prot church, I could passively attend that. I would not be participating in their heretical services. But the entire occasion of celebrating a valid marriage would be OK. In other words, I would be OK attending a VALID marriage in a Prot church (passively) but NOT OK with attending an INVALID marriage (even if in a Catholic Church and accompanied by Tridentine Mass).
So I did not attend, but my "Catholic" in-laws were "congratulating" the couple. And the entire event was designed as a celebration of their embarking on their life of sin. Just couldn't do it, even to keep peace with my mother-in-law and sister-in-law. Now, my wife didn't go either because she agreed with me about it, and the cost to her was even higher because it was her mother and sister in question.
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Just a thought....Was his first marriage even valid? Maybe he doesn't even need an annulment. In this day and age anything could have happened. He could have been married in a protestant church.
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Just a thought....Was his first marriage even valid? Maybe he doesn't even need an annulment. In this day and age anything could have happened. He could have been married in a protestant church.
But that's not a private judgment we can make and act upon. Until the Church declares a marriage null, it's presumed valid.
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Yes, ANY word or action that would suggest "congratulating" the couple is objective scandal. You cannot congratulate them for undertaking a life of sin and thereby encourage them.
I was in a similar situation and could not bring myself before God to attend ... even to keep peace with my in-laws.
By showing up there and being part of the "celebration", I am participating in a celebration of sin. Can't do it.
NOW ... if it were a presumed valid marriage in a Prot church, I could passively attend that. I would not be participating in their heretical services. But the entire occasion of celebrating a valid marriage would be OK. In other words, I would be OK attending a VALID marriage in a Prot church (passively) but NOT OK with attending an INVALID marriage (even if in a Catholic Church and accompanied by Tridentine Mass).
So I did not attend, but my "Catholic" in-laws were "congratulating" the couple. And the entire event was designed as a celebration of their embarking on their life of sin. Just couldn't do it, even to keep peace with my mother-in-law and sister-in-law. Now, my wife didn't go either because she agreed with me about it, and the cost to her was even higher because it was her mother and sister in question.
My situation was a little easier. It was a cousin and not only was it a "second marriage" but also he being a Catholic novus ordo (in name only) was getting shacked up outside the NO church to a Jєωιѕн lady. Even if his "first marriage" was null (I never heard anything about that but I think the marriage was not in the Church), there was no way a Catholic (Novus Ordo or otherwise) can be married to a Jєω outside the Catholic Church. So I refused to go. But I didn't have to suffer much for that. It was 200 miles away and I didn't try to humiliate them, I just declined the invite and that was that. But I made sure to tell my mother and my siblings why I wasn't going. They didn't give me any trouble but they went themselves. But if it had been a brother or sister, I would still not go, not to the ceremony, not to the reception, no gift, no card, nothing.
By the way, it is true that the ceremony is only the beginning. If you have to keep meeting with these people, you are faced with the "Mr & Mrs" issues. It is very easy to forget and refer to so-and-so's "wife" when it is really his concubine. But as Our Lord said, "For thou hast had five husbands: and he whom thou now hast, is not thy husband." (cf. John 4:16-18 ) (http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=50&ch=4&l=16-#x)
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I am curious if the responses in this thread would have been the same if the case was on the contrary: non traditional husband and wife refusing to attend....
What should a wife do in similar situations and how would this affect husband's authority?
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I don't think it can be stated any clearer than the way Fr. Wathen puts it in this sermon. Listen from 3:20 to 5:10 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/0co7r0eche777dl/Living-Our-Convictions-With-Discernment-233%2010%2023%2088.mp3?dl=0)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/0co7r0eche777dl/Living-Our-Convictions-With-Discernment-233%2010%2023%2088.mp3?dl=0)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/0co7r0eche777dl/Living-Our-Convictions-With-Discernment-233%2010%2023%2088.mp3?dl=0)
thanks, I may need this in the future when push comes to shove, I don't see how I can possibly attend
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Don't attend, hold firm! If you go, you will regret one day.
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My understanding is the same as what Mithrandylan has said. If you can skip out with no serious consequences, then don't go. But, if not attending would cause greater harm (for example, damaging your immediate family situation) then it is permissible to attend passively. If choosing that option, I would make sure your wife knows exactly what your motivations are.
It doesn't sound like your wife is terribly concerned with her friend's soul, but another example would be if her attendance would allow her to continue to be a positive example for her friend and non-attendance would mean an end to the friendship, she would be allowed to attend, but not to participate.
Even in Novus Ordo religion class back in the early 1980s I was taught by the Benedictines that attending a wedding with a divorcee or with a baptized Catholic in a non-Catholic ceremony was impermissible.
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I agree with Mithrandylan on this question. Your vocation in this life is your own wife. If this is really important to the well being of your marriage then I recommend going with your wife to the ceremony and avoid getting into arguments about the invalidity of the wedding.
Poche's comment perfectly exemplifies the pansy theology of the Novus Ordo. Frank the Fraud probably has a letter of commendation in the mail to Poche and Satan probably wished he had an ounce of ice water for Montini when Poche hit post.
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Can't go. Period.
I didn't go to my brother's "wedding" even though he hasn't been to mass in 10 or so years. He is a baptized and confirmed Catholic, "married" outside the Church to a non-Catholic. I warned him multiple times the gravity of the situation and did not go, even though everyone else in my family did (much to my sadness, and they call themselves Catholic). More than one priest told me it would be a mortal sin to attend.
Secondly, if your marriage is on rocky ground, you need to re-double your prayers and penance for your wife. If she were to leave you over something so incredibly petty, that is a HUGE red flag. You have to storm heaven to attain graces for her. Is she Catholic?