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Author Topic: Non catholic wedding  (Read 4429 times)

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Offline sedevacantist3

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Non catholic wedding
« on: April 30, 2017, 01:43:10 PM »
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  • My wife's best friend (baptized catholic) is going out with a divorced catholic. There are talks that he will propose. I told the wife I wouldn't be able to go since it wouldn't  be a Catholic wedding. Even though I already rejected a friend of mine's wedding on the same basis now she is freaking out since it's her best friend. Our relationship is already on shaky ground so this issue can have the potential to cause a separation. In reading the following article I was wondering if the  following paragraph was true or a novus ordo invention.

    "Canon law does not prohibit Catholics from attending invalid weddings, Father Pacwa explained, but he said that Catholics must discern carefully. “Every situation will call upon our reserves of prayer, discernment and evaluation,” he said. “And a good confession before making any decision is always a good idea.”

    http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/the-other-marriage-debate





    Online Miseremini

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    Re: Non catholic wedding
    « Reply #1 on: April 30, 2017, 02:35:04 PM »
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  • Forget it's not a "Catholic wedding"...it's not a wedding at all; he's still married.  They're just going to shack up according to man's law.

    Prior to Vat II we were prohibited from attending a valid protestant wedding because we were not allowed to worship with anyone outside the Catholic Church.

    Your wife needs to decide who she wants to please, God or her best friend.  In this case human respect is the wrong choice.

    If this is her "best friend" will she be asked to be Matron of Honour?  In this case that would certainly be condoning their sin.

    Sorry to hear this could be a deal breaker....I hope it's not.

    As for Canon law I think they are talking about weddings performed where both parties are actually FREE to marry.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]



    Online Miseremini

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    Re: Non catholic wedding
    « Reply #2 on: April 30, 2017, 02:36:21 PM »
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  • Forget it's not a "Catholic wedding"...it's not a wedding at all; he's still married.  They're just going to shack up according to man's law.

    Prior to Vat II we were prohibited from attending a valid protestant wedding because we were not allowed to worship with anyone outside the Catholic Church.

    Your wife needs to decide who she wants to please, God or her best friend.  In this case human respect is the wrong choice.

    If this is her "best friend" will she be asked to be Matron of Honour?  That would certainly be condoning their sin.

    Sorry to hear this could be a deal breaker....I hope it's not.

    As for Canon law I think they are talking about weddings performed where both parties are actually FREE to marry.
    Sorry I clicked quote instead of modify
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Non catholic wedding
    « Reply #3 on: April 30, 2017, 02:38:28 PM »
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  • Theoretically, you could attend. One of the reasons that canonists give is grave civil duty. However, as you point out, the marriage is properly invalid. Don't "celebrate" it. You don't need to go out of your way to tell anyone that it's an invalid marriage, but you should refrain from advancing congratulations or any other positive action that would be construed as an approval of the union.

    And of course, no positive acts of worship during the (non-Catholic) service. Sitting in the back with a rosary, if possible, is a great way to avoid being pressured into such actions.

    See if your wife would be happy just attending the reception. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Online Miseremini

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    Re: Non catholic wedding
    « Reply #4 on: April 30, 2017, 02:46:59 PM »
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  • Theoretically, you could attend. One of the reasons that canonists give is grave civil duty.
    You can't attend theoretically or any other way.  HE'S MARRIED unless he's gotten an annulment.
    This does not fall under civil duty.  Social maybe.

    Attendance would condone his sin thereby causing scandal.

    Parents of divorced children have to make this decision all the time and it breaks their hearts.
    This is just a friend.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]



    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Non catholic wedding
    « Reply #5 on: April 30, 2017, 03:48:44 PM »
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  • You can't attend theoretically or any other way.  HE'S MARRIED unless he's gotten an annulment.
    This does not fall under civil duty.  Social maybe.

    Attendance would condone his sin thereby causing scandal.

    Parents of divorced children have to make this decision all the time and it breaks their hearts.
    This is just a friend.

    The civil duty is to his wife; "keeping the peace" within a family, so to speak.  If OP is literally faced with a choice between attending this service or getting divorced, such a situation is the archetypal situation considered by canonists and moralists as, if any, a situation that could allow passive attendance.
     
    The OP asked if the material he found was a Novus Ordo innovation.  It is not.  It is correct to say that canon law does not forbid attendance of an invalid marriage.  It forbids active participation in non-Catholic worship.  This includes weddings and funerals.  And I'm not even talking about the Novus Ordo canon law, I'm talking about the 1917 CIC, which the OP, as a sedevacantist, is following.

    Of course it's true that scandal, perversion, etc. must be avoided or rendered remote in either event.  Hence the recommendation of sitting quietly in the back with a rosary.  Also, the question if the wife would be satisfied attending the reception and not the ceremony itself.

    It's very confusing, of course, especially when these things happen in the Novus Ordo.  
     
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Non catholic wedding
    « Reply #6 on: April 30, 2017, 03:56:43 PM »
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  • OP, you might benefit from consulting McHugh and Callan (or any moralists you might own) to get a better handle on all the conditions required for lawful, passive attendance at some non-Catholic ceremony or another:

    http://archive.org/stream/moraltheologyaco35354gut/35354.txt (esp. para 973 ff.)
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Dolores

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    Re: Non catholic wedding
    « Reply #7 on: April 30, 2017, 04:01:07 PM »
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  • Prior to Vat II we were prohibited from attending a valid protestant wedding because we were not allowed to worship with anyone outside the Catholic Church.

    This isn't correct.  Active participation at Protestant, or other non-Catholic, weddings was prohibited, but passive attendance was permitted prior to Vatican II.

    Quote from: 1917 Code of Canon Law
    Canon 1258

    It is unlawful for the faithful to assist in any active manner, or to take part, in the sacred services of non-Catholics.

    Merely passive or material presence may be tolerated on account of a civil office, or for the purpose of showing respect to persons, to be approved in doubtful cases by the bishop for grave reasons, at funerals of non-Catholics, at their marriages, and similar solemnities, provided there is danger of neither perversion nor scandal.


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Non catholic wedding
    « Reply #8 on: April 30, 2017, 04:48:43 PM »
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  • My wife's best friend (baptized catholic) is going out with a divorced catholic. There are talks that he will propose. I told the wife I wouldn't be able to go since it wouldn't  be a Catholic wedding. Even though I already rejected a friend of mine's wedding on the same basis now she is freaking out since it's her best friend. Our relationship is already on shaky ground so this issue can have the potential to cause a separation. In reading the following article I was wondering if the  following paragraph was true or a novus ordo invention.

    "Canon law does not prohibit Catholics from attending invalid weddings, Father Pacwa explained, but he said that Catholics must discern carefully. “Every situation will call upon our reserves of prayer, discernment and evaluation,” he said. “And a good confession before making any decision is always a good idea.”

    http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/the-other-marriage-debate
    You can't attend their celebration of going to hell together. How's that for being direct? That is exactly what they are choosing if the abandon the faith and shack up together.

    Now, as for your wife's best friend, she should have been advised from the beginning never to date men they could not marry.

    I found out one day that a female relative was going to marry a divorced Catholic. I think the man had an annulment (ANYONE can get an annulment today). I immediately wrote her an "anonymous friend"  letter telling her many things, in brief, that it was a big mistake, that an annulment today meant nothing, that the person would leave her just as he left the other, that she deserved much better .... I sent the letter to a friend in another state and had him mail it in a new envelope. I did my job, and I prayed for her and and let God sort out the rest.
    I found out like two months later that the wedding was off, that she had caught him cheating on her. God sorted it out.

    As you can see, the important objective here has nothing to do with you attending the wedding, but both of you convincing the "best friend" to choose God rather than this unfaithful divorcee.

    No one is lost without knowing it, and no one is deceived without wanting to be. (St. Teresa of Avila)
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Non catholic wedding
    « Reply #9 on: April 30, 2017, 05:07:52 PM »
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  • My understanding is the same as what Mithrandylan has said. If you can skip out with no serious consequences, then don't go. But, if not attending would cause greater harm (for example, damaging your immediate family situation) then it is permissible to attend passively. If choosing that option, I would make sure your wife knows exactly what your motivations are.

    It doesn't sound like your wife is terribly concerned with her friend's soul, but another example would be if her attendance would allow her to continue to be a positive example for her friend and non-attendance would mean an end to the friendship, she would be allowed to attend, but not to participate.
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Online Miseremini

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    Re: Non catholic wedding
    « Reply #10 on: April 30, 2017, 06:13:28 PM »
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  • Sorry Mater but it sounds as if you're saying "go along to get along" both with the girlfriend and the husband with the wife.
    If the husband gives in on this possible deal breaker to his marriage it could be worse than not going to the wedding as the wife will threaten the marriage whenever she wants her way in the future.

    What happened to the catholic  stance that the man is the head of the family and has the final word regarding the faith?  This would turn the authority over to the wife.  Also the wife should be concerned about her own soul before trying to be an example to her friend.
    As for Canon law I don't believe they are talking about a divorced situation.

    Would you still interpret Canon law the same way if the wife's girlfriend was a lesbian marrying another woman?
    The marriage would be invalid.
    A sin is a sin and we can't condone it.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]



    Offline Marlelar

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    Re: Non catholic wedding
    « Reply #11 on: April 30, 2017, 06:22:22 PM »
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  • I think you need to consult a good priest.

    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Non catholic wedding
    « Reply #12 on: April 30, 2017, 06:28:38 PM »
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  • Sorry Mater but it sounds as if you're saying "go along to get along" both with the girlfriend and the husband with the wife.
    If the husband gives in on this possible deal breaker to his marriage it could be worse than not going to the wedding as the wife will threaten the marriage whenever she wants her way in the future.

    What happened to the catholic  stance that the man is the head of the family and has the final word regarding the faith?  This would turn the authority over to the wife.  Also the wife should be concerned about her own soul before trying to be an example to her friend.
    As for Canon law I don't believe they are talking about a divorced situation.

    Would you still interpret Canon law the same way if the wife's girlfriend was a lesbian marrying another woman?
    The marriage would be invalid.
    A sin is a sin and we can't condone it.

    I, too, do not know if that part of Canon Law only applies to valid marriages or all non-Catholic services. It seems to me, though, that it would have spelled out "valid only" if that was an intended limitation.

    I think at the time the Law was written, a marriage to a divorcee would have fallen under "scandalous".
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline Marlelar

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    Re: Non catholic wedding
    « Reply #13 on: April 30, 2017, 06:52:17 PM »
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  • Would you still interpret Canon law 
    This is why we have Canon lawyers.  Lay people are singularly unqualified to "interpret Canon Law".

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Non catholic wedding
    « Reply #14 on: April 30, 2017, 07:01:50 PM »
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  • I told the wife I wouldn't be able to go since it wouldn't  be a Catholic wedding. Even though I already rejected a friend of mine's wedding on the same basis now she is freaking out since it's her best friend. Our relationship is already on shaky ground so this issue can have the potential to cause a separation. 
    If he is divorced then it is not a marriage at all, let alone a Catholic one. If his marriage was annulled it is a different matter. You make no mention of annulment. There is a difference between divorce and annulment. 
    It is not good enough to say, as one poster has done, that anyone can get an annulment. There are some annulments which are justified and not all can be dismissed. 
    If you really meant he is divorced then stick to your word. Don't go. 
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
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