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Author Topic: New NFP booklet?  (Read 3429 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: New NFP booklet?
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2017, 07:13:19 PM »
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  • Quote
    or that a fertile couple who have very bad timing and inadvertently
    "inadvertently" is the key word, which means the couple did not put "pleasure/marital love" above "openness to life".  If you switch the two, this is where sin is born.  Intention is key here.  


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New NFP booklet?
    « Reply #31 on: December 17, 2017, 08:39:56 PM »
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  • .
    Tell that to AES, I was trying to summarize his position, and asked him to clarify if I had it wrong.  In either event,
    .
    What reasons would you give that a sterile couple are not guilty of such subordination, or that a fertile couple who have very bad timing and inadvertently but always observe only sterile periods, are similarly not guilty of such subordination?

    Frustrating the primary end and subordinating it to the secondary is completely different than simply having the primary end be absent or unattainable.  CC actually treats quite extensively of this.  One may indeed have marital relations when only the secondary end is attainable.  That's why couples may have relations during infertile periods, in their older age, etc.  It's all about the formal intent.  If I am intending to frustrate the primary end so that I can enjoy the secondary end only, that's clearly subordination.  Indeed, it's intrinsically permissible to have relations during infertile periods ... and that isn't intrinsically immoral.  What's immoral is when I intend to have relations ONLY during the infertile periods because I want the secondary end but don't want the primary end.  If trying to achieve the secondary end while avoiding the primary is not subordination, then I don't know what is, honestly.  But the NFPers argue that it's permissible precisely because it's not intrinsically immoral to have relations during the infertile periods.  But that's where the formal intent comes in and is forgotten about by the proponents of NFP.  LOTS of things aren't intrinsically evil.  It's not intrinsically evil to kill someone.  If I kill someone to save my own life, then it's not evil.  If I kill someone to steal their money, then it's evil.  What distinguishes it is the formal intent.

    So the burden of proof is on the NFPers to explain what formal intent can be present that would absolve people of trying to subordinate the ends of marital relations.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New NFP booklet?
    « Reply #32 on: December 17, 2017, 08:42:24 PM »
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  • "inadvertently" is the key word, which means the couple did not put "pleasure/marital love" above "openness to life".  If you switch the two, this is where sin is born.  Intention is key here.  

    "Openness to life" is a garbage Novus Ordo term.  It just means that if a couple happen to get pregnant, they wouldn't get an abortion.  I could be open to life even if I use a condom.  If the condom breaks or has a hole in it, then I'm open to that life and would not have an abortion.  Catholic thinking on the subject involves the primary and secondary ends.

    Offline Merry

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    Re: New NFP booklet?
    « Reply #33 on: December 17, 2017, 09:37:59 PM »
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  • One young woman I knew told such a story.  She was from a family of 8 or 9 children.  One day the non-Catholic grandmother was chiding the mother about having so many children.  Upon which this girl said, "OK, Grandma, which one of us would you not like to be here?"

    If any one saith that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and on that account wrests to some sort of metaphor those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost...,"  Let Him Be Anathama.  -COUNCIL OF TRENT Sess VII Canon II “On Baptism"

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: New NFP booklet?
    « Reply #34 on: December 17, 2017, 10:57:36 PM »
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  • Frustrating the primary end and subordinating it to the secondary is completely different than simply having the primary end be absent or unattainable.  CC actually treats quite extensively of this.  One may indeed have marital relations when only the secondary end is attainable.  That's why couples may have relations during infertile periods, in their older age, etc. 
    .
    Thank you for the reply.
    .
    To me, it seems that subordination and frustration deal with the exact same thing.  When the act's primary end is frustrated, it is subordinated to secondary ends.  There's not much use distinguishing between frustration and subordination-- the latter follows from the former.
    .
    That being the case, I think that to "frustrate the primary end" is more or less controvertible with "subordinating the primary end to secondary ends."  They're not two different things and Pope Pius XII didn't "ignore" anything by treating the one and not the other.
    .

    Quote
    It's all about the formal intent.  If I am intending to frustrate the primary end so that I can enjoy the secondary end only, that's clearly subordination.  Indeed, it's intrinsically permissible to have relations during infertile periods ... and that isn't intrinsically immoral.  What's immoral is when I intend to have relations ONLY during the infertile periods because I want the secondary end but don't want the primary end. 
    .
    To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure you know what you want to say here. 
    .
    Mental prioritization isn't the same thing as proper subordination, which in the context of CC and the natural law follows from some act.  I may prioritize the taste of a meal over its nutritive qualities, and I may be motivated to eat the meal because of its smell or appearance rather than out of a Aristotelian appreciation for its participation in an intricate network of causality and ends.  And in so doing I would never be subordinating the primary end of consuming the meal to a secondary end.  That's just boilerplate human behavior.  Now, if I eat the meal and then go to the bathroom and purge, I'm frustrating the primary end of nutritive consumption and subordinating it to secondary ends.
    .
    So if you want to argue that there is devious, even sinful intent in having marital relations only in sterile periods, let's argue that, but let's just be really clear that such an argument has nothing to do with the natural law, frustration, or the subordination of ends. 
    .

    Quote
    If trying to achieve the secondary end while avoiding the primary is not subordination, then I don't know what is, honestly. 
    .
    Condoms.  Birth Control Pills.  And so on.  Those all directly frustrate (not avoid) the power of the act in a way that makes the realization of its primary end virtually impossible.  That is true subordination.  What you're describing is, at worst, an interior disposition of "not wanting to conceive right now."  Not a perversion of the act itself, which is the problem with birth control.
    .


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    But the NFPers argue that it's permissible precisely because it's not intrinsically immoral to have relations during the infertile periods.  But that's where the formal intent comes in and is forgotten about by the proponents of NFP.
    .
    Well, it's permissible because it isn't intrinsically immoral, and only when the conditions set down by Pius XII are met.  Those include a grave reason and as I recall, consultation with one's confessor.  Point just being that I'm in this for Pius XII's honor, not because I have any interest in defending the gross abuses in the Novus Ordo, where NFP is taught indiscriminately as something that married couples "just do" because it's "all natural" or whatever other tripe.  I hope you understand that.
    .
    I'm not forgetting about intent.  I've said-- twice, I think-- that a person can absolutely sin in "using NFP," and Pius XII says quite clearly that "The mere fact that husband and wife do not offend the nature of the act and are even ready to accept and bring up the child, who, notwithstanding their precautions, might be born, would not be itself sufficient to guarantee the rectitude of their intention and the unobjectionable morality of their motives." 
    .



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    So the burden of proof is on the NFPers to explain what formal intent can be present that would absolve people of trying to subordinate the ends of marital relations.
    .
    Well, that's simple.  As St. Paul says, husbands and wives are not to refuse the debt.  Better to be married than to burn, etc..  Supposing the usual caveats (health, privacy, etc.), married couples are obliged to render the debt unto one another, and the obligation is uninterrupted and continuous throughout the life of the marriage.  That, indeed, is the marital contract.  The giving up of the body to the spouse forever.  Fulfillment of the vocation, then is the motive.  Similarly, a decent way to judge-- if one were to find themselves in a situation that they might think "qualifies" for the licit use of NFP-- is to ask the same question.  Will I be able to fulfill my vocation if I have another child in nine months?  Is there good and serious reason that it would kill me, leaving my other four children motherless?  Is there good and serious reason that another child will exceed even our basic needs, and my wife and (now) five kids will be living in the street?  And so on.  At any rate, this is Pius XII's reasoning and the reasoning of any of the author's who treat the matter.  It's not at odds with CC, that's for sure.  For no other reason than the fact that even if NFP is abused, it is not the sin of contraception.  Even if NFP is impossible to use licitly (which is not my position), it's not the sin of contraception. 
    .
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline Merry

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    Re: New NFP booklet?
    « Reply #35 on: December 17, 2017, 11:33:31 PM »
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  • This NFP and Christian Moral Code is a reprint of the old edition with updates, and covers all the discussions being brought up here, including the overreach of Pius XII, Billings, and Casti Connubii (an excellent docuмent on marriage). Fr. Wathen said it was the best thing he knew of which exposed NFP for what it is: a Catholic novelty.  It was Archbishop Murray of St. Paul who commissioned Jeanne Dvorak's mother in his name to oppose it whenever she had the opportunity, even if it be in public (and even if it involved publicly reprimanding priests disobedient to the Archbishop's directives against propagating NFP).   
    If any one saith that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and on that account wrests to some sort of metaphor those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost...,"  Let Him Be Anathama.  -COUNCIL OF TRENT Sess VII Canon II “On Baptism"

    Offline Fanny

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    Re: New NFP booklet?
    « Reply #36 on: December 18, 2017, 12:08:05 AM »
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  • My 2 cents...

    God gave us NFP.  He doesn't make mistakes.  However, He gave it to us to use only for a serious reason and you will answer to God for your decision and choice.   What would be a serious reason?  Talk to your spiritual advisor because many things come in to play.

    The problem today is twofold:
    1. Lack of proper Catholic education prior to marriage
    2. Selfishness.

    These problems cause an abuse of NFP.

    We should be grateful to God for the children He blesses us with, remembering He designs all things and as long as we cooperate with His design everything will work out.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New NFP booklet?
    « Reply #37 on: December 18, 2017, 08:10:50 AM »
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  • That being the case, I think that to "frustrate the primary end" is more or less controvertible with "subordinating the primary end to secondary ends."  They're not two different things and Pope Pius XII didn't "ignore" anything by treating the one and not the other.

    Where the footnote appears in Pius XII to CC, he's citing the phrase in CC that's universally understood to refer to things like artificial birth control and onanism (I forget the Latin offhand).  He then goes on to speak about how NFP might be permitted under various circuмstances.  But he simply DID NOT ADDRESS the principle taught by Pius XI in CC that the primary ends cannot be subordinated to the secondary.  In order to establish the permissibility of NFP, after the teaching of Pius XI, one would have to explain how attempting to thwart the primary end so that the secondary end can be enjoyed without the burdens that might come with it is NOT subordinating the primary end to the secondary.  No one has ever provided a satisfactory explanation for this.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New NFP booklet?
    « Reply #38 on: December 18, 2017, 08:24:49 AM »
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  • Mental prioritization isn't the same thing as proper subordination, which in the context of CC and the natural law follows from some act.  I may prioritize the taste of a meal over its nutritive qualities, and I may be motivated to eat the meal because of its smell or appearance rather than out of a Aristotelian appreciation for its participation in an intricate network of causality and ends.  And in so doing I would never be subordinating the primary end of consuming the meal to a secondary end.  That's just boilerplate human behavior.  Now, if I eat the meal and then go to the bathroom and purge, I'm frustrating the primary end of nutritive consumption and subordinating it to secondary ends.
    .
    So if you want to argue that there is devious, even sinful intent in having marital relations only in sterile periods, let's argue that, but let's just be really clear that such an argument has nothing to do with the natural law, frustration, or the subordination of ends.  
    ...
    Condoms.  Birth Control Pills.  And so on.  Those all directly frustrate (not avoid) the power of the act in a way that makes the realization of its primary end virtually impossible.  That is true subordination.  What you're describing is, at worst, an interior disposition of "not wanting to conceive right now."  Not a perversion of the act itself, which is the problem with birth control.

    You open this argument with stating that mental prioritization is not the same as subordination ... but then go on to conflate the two.  Obviously, the couple need not be thinking, every single time they have relations, "Yes, indeed, the MAIN reason we want to do this is to conceive a child and only secondarily do we want these other things."  Some Church Fathers would argue that this would be venially sinful, but that's a digression.  In any case, no, obviously mental prioritization is NOT the same thing as subordination.  Indeed, if a couple were to engage in marital relations primarily because they gave into passion or desire and weren't really consciously thinking about having children, this is not tantamount to subordination.

    But what part of this do you not understand?  WITH NFP A COUPLE IS ACTIVELY ATTEMPTING TO THWART THE PRIMARY END OF MARITAL RELATIONS SO THAT THEY CAN ENJOY THE SECONDARY END WITHOUT THE POSSIBLE BURDENS THAT MIGHT COME WITH THE PRIMARY.

    Nor is the thought of "not wanting to conceive right now" anywhere near the same thing as, again, read my lips, actively attempting to have marital relations ONLY during infertile periods so as to thwart the secondary ends.  So that's absolutely false that what I"m describing is "at worst, an interior disposition of 'not wanting to conceive right now'".  That's utter nonsense.  I am speaking about nothing of the sort.  Indeed, a married person might even think, after having engaged in marital relations during a fertile period, "Boy I hope we don't get pregnant right now; we're really having trouble with money lately."  Again, that is not even close to the same thing that I am describing, much less "at worst".  What I'm talking about is the FORMAL INTENT to frustrate the primary end.  "Hey, we're going to deliberately go about having marital relations ONLY during infertile periods so that we can prevent pregnancy."

    I've ALREADY CONCEDED that NFP does not involve a perversion of the act itself.  So why are you arguing this?  I'm talking about the FORMAL INTENT to thwart the primary end while enjoy the secondary.  That is subordination.  Period.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New NFP booklet?
    « Reply #39 on: December 18, 2017, 08:33:33 AM »
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  • Well, it's permissible because it isn't intrinsically immoral, and only when the conditions set down by Pius XII are met.  Those include a grave reason and as I recall, consultation with one's confessor.  Point just being that I'm in this for Pius XII's honor, not because I have any interest in defending the gross abuses in the Novus Ordo, where NFP is taught indiscriminately as something that married couples "just do" because it's "all natural" or whatever other tripe.  I hope you understand that.

    I've already anticipated ... and addressed ... this objection.  I know that this is why NFPers think it's OK ... because it is not intrinsically immoral to have relations during infertile periods.  Nor is it even intrinsically immoral to have relations only during infertile periods ... assuming it just happened to work out that way (let's say one of the spouses was sick during the fertile period).  It's ALL ABOUT THE INTENT.  "Hey, honey, let's try to avoid having relations when you're fertile.  I really want to have relations but I don't want to have children right now."  [THAT IS A MORTAL SIN AND A VIOLATION OF THE SUBORDINATION PRINCIPLE].  Period.

    Just try to be careful about falling for nonsense and for bad moral principles for the "honor" of Pius XII.  Pius XII opened the door to evolution.  Pius XII opened the gates to Catholic birth control, aka NFP.  Pius XII appointed Bugnini to begin the liturgical experimentations.  Pius XII held the first ecuмenical conferences.  Pius XII appointed the vast majority of the bishops who went on to bring us Vatican II.  Pius XII blundered big time here ... just as he did by paying lip service to evolution.  So, basically, you're admitting that you've already decided this matter by virtue of your desire to defend Pius XII and are not looking at it objectively based on the arguments.  Unfortunately, the speculations of Pius XII have led to "dishonor" for the Church as Protestants rightly mock the Catholic Church for promoting natural birth control in NFP.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New NFP booklet?
    « Reply #40 on: December 18, 2017, 08:40:35 AM »
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  • My 2 cents...

    God gave us NFP.  He doesn't make mistakes.  However, He gave it to us to use only for a serious reason and you will answer to God for your decision and choice.   What would be a serious reason?  Talk to your spiritual advisor because many things come in to play.

    The problem today is twofold:
    1. Lack of proper Catholic education prior to marriage
    2. Selfishness.

    These problems cause an abuse of NFP.

    We should be grateful to God for the children He blesses us with, remembering He designs all things and as long as we cooperate with His design everything will work out.

    God did no such thing.  He did not GIVE us NFP.  God indeed gave us the cycles between the fertile and the infertile periods.  It's a purely human invention to attempt to manipulate these cycles in such a way as to enjoy sex without the burden of procreating.  If the reasons are "serious" enough that it would be a grave problem, then ABSTAIN (by mutual consent)!!!  You don't have any God-given right to sex.  Sex was given primarily for procreation and secondarily for other ends.  No, the problem is not with an "abuse" of NFP, but as has been emply demonstrated, with NFP itself and in principle.

    Just like with Bergoglio and the entire Novus Ordo establishment, "grave" reasons amounts to a bunch of subjectivist crap.  Who decides what is objectively grave?  Oh, if I have another child, then I won't be able to afford a college education for all of my children ... or we'll have to eat macaroni and cheese once a week to make ends meet?  WHAT is "grave" reason?  Just a bunch of garbage that completely opens the floodgates to Catholic birth control ... which is what NFP is.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: New NFP booklet?
    « Reply #41 on: December 18, 2017, 08:53:06 AM »
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    "Openness to life" is a garbage Novus Ordo term. 
    Stern but fair.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New NFP booklet?
    « Reply #42 on: December 18, 2017, 08:56:43 AM »
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  • Stern but fair.

    They use it as a way of justifying all manner of sinful activity.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: New NFP booklet?
    « Reply #43 on: December 18, 2017, 09:03:05 AM »
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  • Right.  Was just trying to use a term other than 'primary end'.  I agree wholeheartedly with you on this topic.  NFP is a pandora's box which few should open; the temptation to play with nature is too great and the 'rules' are too subjective.  How many people will be damned for NFP?  Many, as it is just another flavor of the 'deluge of impurity' spoken of by Our Lady of Fatima.