Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: New NFP booklet?  (Read 3396 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Nadir

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11658
  • Reputation: +6988/-498
  • Gender: Female
Re: New NFP booklet?
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2017, 12:26:39 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Ah! Here it is
    Quote
    For Sale:
    A brand new, reprinted, and improved booklet covering the moral problems and dangers of the Rhythm method, or what is known today as 'Natural Family Planning'.

    Description:
    Written by a catholic mother of a large family many decades ago, this booklet's purpose is simply this:

    "This book will seek to prove beyond a doubt that the consequences of the Rhythm Mentality (i.e. Natural Family Planning or NFP) are contrary to the Christian moral code.  Therefore NFP is definitely an error which is being propagated within Christ's own Church, much as was Arianism.  

    This book is meant to inform the pastors of souls about certain facts concerning the nature of woman, and to remind everyone reading this about God the Father and His loving, Providential care for his children.  I wish to encourage married couples to invoke the love of the Holy Ghost so that they may find Divine solutions to their problems, and not resort to the "false science" of this rebellious age."


    This 3rd printing also includes a 1940 letter from the Archbishop of St Paul, MN condemning NFP.

    Softback booklet.  81 pages. Publication date 2017.
    Apart from the question of morality, there is the question of understanding the terminology. There is no reason to equate "Rhythm mentality" with NFP. They have different meanings.
    .
    NFP can be used in a Catholic way, respecting the wonder and joy of creation, and knowing how our bodies function, and in an anti-God way, that is not trusting in God's providence, and using our knowledge to avoid conceiving a child .
    .
    But NFP can be useful for those couples who have trouble in conceiving a child, and these are not rare in our age.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4452
    • Reputation: +5061/-436
    • Gender: Male
    Re: New NFP booklet?
    « Reply #16 on: December 17, 2017, 11:00:53 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • This is the whole point. NFP or the Rhythym method etc... are not sinful when using it to procreate. What makes NFP and ALL birth regulation or control sinful, is when it is used to deliberately frustrate the purpose of the conjugal act, which is the begetting of children. It's pretty clear and not hard to understand. Frustrating the natural power of the act, purposely, is intrinsically vicious to nature as Pope Pius XI says above.
    .
    Except that sterile sex frustrates nothing, even if it is abusive (i.e., "Novus Ordo NFP."). 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4452
    • Reputation: +5061/-436
    • Gender: Male
    Re: New NFP booklet?
    « Reply #17 on: December 17, 2017, 11:14:58 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • That is to say, even when Pius XII's teaching is abused, the sin committed is one against marriage, rather than against the natural order. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4452
    • Reputation: +5061/-436
    • Gender: Male
    Re: New NFP booklet?
    « Reply #18 on: December 17, 2017, 11:27:39 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I rather think CC supports what I'm saying, rather than what you're saying. Pius XII read it, even cites it in his letter to the midwives (in which he teaches that it is lawful for couples to reserve the marital act to sterile periods for a grave reason). Surely you don't think you understand it better?
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline klasG4e

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2307
    • Reputation: +1344/-235
    • Gender: Male
    Re: New NFP booklet?
    « Reply #19 on: December 17, 2017, 12:15:47 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Ha, anyone ever seen a NFP poster with more than 3 or at the most 4 children on it?  It's as if the message was that more than 3 or 4 children just ain't natural.


    Offline songbird

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4670
    • Reputation: +1765/-353
    • Gender: Female
    Re: New NFP booklet?
    « Reply #20 on: December 17, 2017, 05:10:57 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  •  I am a Billings Method Teacher of 1980's.  I do not teach the way the curriculum is set up: Secular with no God, or of the attitude that a young couple can put off having children till their college is finished or such. (couple to couple league brags in their newsletters)  I can say that it was a disappointment to see the beauty of God in the anatomy and physiology to fit the ways of "man's idea".

    Sin happens when the Knowledge given to man by God is man's way and not God's.  That is the attitude/heart which will be judged. 

    In 1980, I had for the first time a video of Billings and the first book.  I was age 27, young enough not see all.  I had classes with the Billings, twice.  I saw nothing wrong with the curriculum, but it was there, no God was mentioned and it was done very cleverly.  Who did that, I do not know.  It took me time, years to see that.  In 1990, I was offered to please  file for grant money and then I knew there was trouble, because I knew what grants were.  I was offered to read grants by the governor of AZ.  He wanted to know who was bringing sex ed. into the state when it was against the laws.

    While that was brewing, I ran into a group: Sympto-thermal.  Well, they did not like Billings, in fact the head person teaching under the dioceses told me there was a blood bath with them.  I also got a bad "attitude" with this head person of ST.  "We teach better than you!"   Better how?  Oh, we do all of these checks of the anatomy.  Well, to make a long story short I happened to run into one of these users and this woman said to me, "How can you go mucus only?"  I said, because that is what God gave us and that is all that is needed.  Thermometer is of man and when you lean too much on so many signs, it can cause aggravation.  Besides, you were taught that thermometer give signs in pre menopause.

    So, with those issues circulating in my head and soul, what resulted.  First of all the Billings were very hurt and disappointed when they found the knowledge of Billings go with the taking of federal grants $$$.  Dr. Billings said in front of many people at one of my conferences, "This (Billings knowledge to be taught) is God's!"   
    I knew what he was getting across.  He was very unhappy.

    Then I found Planned Parenthood teaching Billings by all messed up.  They taught Hi-tech Rhythm, their words.  They said, " Most couples do not wait so use condoms and such.  See!  And what would be PP's results.  I know, pregnancy and PP had high hopes that their way of teaching would result with abortions and also what God gave would be back to what it was in the minds of man, just another rhythm to disregard.

    And who brought sex ed. into the state of AZ.  The dioceses.  Wow!  Did I get a wake up call!  Boy, did I need to pray about the whole issue. And I still do. Then I came across how Communism works when reading grants known as KAB.  KAB is used to change the thinking of men.  KAB =Knowledge, attitude, behavior.  Then I read that in our catholicism we do the same and it equals up to sin or to God Glory.  With knowledge we know love and serve God in this world for us to meet in Heaven.  So, behavior would be for me to save my soul.

    For communism, to change knowledge OR take truth and twist it, to change attitude, to change behavior.  This is Artificial man made birth control for just a starter.  You can  take KAB and see how it fits communistic ways.

    So, after much prayer and I still pray about this, IMO, what God has made is most beautiful.  Depending how it goes to attitude and behaviors is where sin is.  We know God will judge the heart/soul.

    IMO there will be serious reasons.  But it is heavily on attitude that needs to be checked!  

    Offline songbird

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4670
    • Reputation: +1765/-353
    • Gender: Female
    Re: New NFP booklet?
    « Reply #21 on: December 17, 2017, 05:13:29 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • thermometer gives "no" signs approaching menopause.

    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4452
    • Reputation: +5061/-436
    • Gender: Male
    Re: New NFP booklet?
    « Reply #22 on: December 17, 2017, 05:57:23 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Well you say grave reasons legitimatize the act of relegating the conjugal act to periods in which there is virtually no possible way to conceive and refraining from the conjugal act when conception is possible. This is deliberately frustrating its natural power. You have full knowledge of the times in which the woman is likely to get pregnant and intend to only use the times when it's not likely or possible? Is this really not clear to you? Pope Pius XII clearly contradicts CC in his SPEECH to midwives even though he clearly says CC's contents are to remain valid always.


                                                

    .
    I'm not sure why you should act as though rhythm/NFP (as taught by Pius XII) is obviously at odds with CC.  The teaching enjoys the approval of the Holy Office under both Pius IX and Leo XIII, not to mention plenty of theologians in the nineteenth and twentieth century, including those who take CC to reference and approve of it, distinguishing between intrinsically contra natura acts (birth control devices and the like) and rhythm or NFP.  If it's wrong, fine, but it's not obviously so if much more learned men then us can arrive at the conclusion they've arrived at.
    .
    Anyways, is the following a fair representation of your argument, in logical form:
    .
    (Major Premise 1) Contraceptive acts are intrinsically against nature
    (Minor Premise 1) NFP (i.e., the reservation of the marital act to sterile periods for a grave reason) is contraceptive
    (Minor Premise 2) But a thing which is intrinsically against nature can never be licit, no matter the situation
    Ergo, reserving the marital act to sterile periods is sinful as such
    .
    ?
    .
    I understand that you (given the quote you gave from CC) would not assign guilt of acting contrary to the natural order to a couple who was permanently infertile.  I don't think the syllogism covers that part, so maybe you'd like to re-word it a little so that it's clear that only those who are normally fertile sin by observing the periods of sterility (if that is, in fact, your position-- I'd be curious to know what difference it makes).
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline klasG4e

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2307
    • Reputation: +1344/-235
    • Gender: Male
    Re: New NFP booklet?
    « Reply #23 on: December 17, 2017, 06:19:49 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0

  • One highly intelligent and highly educated traditional Catholic with a very large family likes to say that he just isn't smart enough to know how many children God wants him and his wife to have so they just let God decide how many He wishes to send them.  (And they have wisely -- as far as I know -- never tried to second guess their Creator!)

    I was at a Christmas dinner at a fancy restaurant once with my traditional Catholic boss and a number of his other employees and their families.  He and his wife had a rather large family.  His children were at one table while he, his wife and I were at another large table along with a very secular type non-Catholic who was also an employee.  Some friendly banter was going on about my boss' many children when the secular type all of a sudden said something like this to my boss in a joking, but slightly derogatory sort of way: "How in the world would you ever want to have so many kids?"  Without missing a beat, my boss looked at him and said in a strong, serious, and measured tone, "Which of my children would you wish I did not have?"  There was a sudden silence with no forthcoming reply.  I think my fellow employee immediately realized his terrible gaffe and wished he could have slithered out of the restaurant at that very moment.  He was quite subdued for the rest of the evening as best I can recall!

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41839
    • Reputation: +23907/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: New NFP booklet?
    « Reply #24 on: December 17, 2017, 06:26:12 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I rather think CC supports what I'm saying, rather than what you're saying. Pius XII read it, even cites it in his letter to the midwives (in which he teaches that it is lawful for couples to reserve the marital act to sterile periods for a grave reason). Surely you don't think you understand it better?

    Yeah, Pius XII mentioned CC but he left out a crucial piece of it.  Pius XII cited CC in support of the principle that it's sinful to frustrated the inherent potential of the martial act (aka via birth control, onanism, etc.) but then conveniently ignored the OTHER principle taught by Pius XI, namely, that it's sinful to subordinate the primary end of marital relations to the secondary.  And when one is trying to prevent the primary ends in order to enjoy the secondary only, that is CLEARLY AND DIRECTLY in violation of the Pius XI CC teaching ... a principle that Pius XII COMPLETELY IGNORED.  Epic fail by Pius XII.  And Pius XII's fruits have been evident now since his death, as he opened the floodgates for the contraceptive mentality, the notion of limiting children, etc.  Similarly, Pius XII opened the floodgates to liturgical experimentation and ecuмenical dialogues.  No St. Pius X was he.  Pius XII also appointed the vast majority of the modernist bishops who would bring us the glories of Vatican II.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41839
    • Reputation: +23907/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: New NFP booklet?
    « Reply #25 on: December 17, 2017, 06:31:51 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • "Which of my children would you wish I did not have?"  There was a sudden silence with no forthcoming reply.  I think my fellow employee immediately realized his terrible gaffe and wished he could have slithered out of the restaurant at that very moment.  He was quite subdued for the rest of the evening as best I can recall!

    Yes, that is always my response when various extended family criticize the number of children my wife and I have had.  "So, which one would you like me to get rid of?"  [that's a little more direct and blunt than "wish I did not have"]  Of those couples who have limited their families, God will ask them at their judgment, "So where is John and where is Therese, the souls I would have desired to bring into existence."?   Controlling birth is a greater evil than murder because you're preventing souls from coming into existence.  Now, at a layer above this, of course, God uses everything, including our sinful decisions, as a way to direct His providence.  But we're still subjectively guilty.  So, for instance, if I murder someone, then surely God willed that the victim should die that day, but that does not diminish my responsibility for murder.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41839
    • Reputation: +23907/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: New NFP booklet?
    « Reply #26 on: December 17, 2017, 06:34:22 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Anyways, is the following a fair representation of your argument, in logical form:
    .
    (Major Premise 1) Contraceptive acts are intrinsically against nature
    (Minor Premise 1) NFP (i.e., the reservation of the marital act to sterile periods for a grave reason) is contraceptive
    (Minor Premise 2) But a thing which is intrinsically against nature can never be licit, no matter the situation
    Ergo, reserving the marital act to sterile periods is sinful as such
    .

    Has nothing to do with it.  It's the teaching of CC that the primary end of marital relations can never be subordinated to the secondary ... which Pius XII completely ignored, citing only the section on the inherent potential (natural power) of the act.

    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4452
    • Reputation: +5061/-436
    • Gender: Male
    Re: New NFP booklet?
    « Reply #27 on: December 17, 2017, 06:52:19 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Has nothing to do with it.  It's the teaching of CC that the primary end of marital relations can never be subordinated to the secondary ... which Pius XII completely ignored, citing only the section on the inherent potential (natural power) of the act.
    .
    Tell that to AES, I was trying to summarize his position, and asked him to clarify if I had it wrong.  In either event,
    .
    What reasons would you give that a sterile couple are not guilty of such subordination, or that a fertile couple who have very bad timing and inadvertently but always observe only sterile periods, are similarly not guilty of such subordination? 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4452
    • Reputation: +5061/-436
    • Gender: Male
    Re: New NFP booklet?
    « Reply #28 on: December 17, 2017, 06:54:33 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • klasG4e,

    No one is defending the indiscriminate use of NFP found and taught in the Novus Ordo.  The only question is about Pius XII's teaching, and even those who say he was wrong understand that he stipulated the use of NFP on a grave reason.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline klasG4e

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2307
    • Reputation: +1344/-235
    • Gender: Male
    Re: New NFP booklet?
    « Reply #29 on: December 17, 2017, 07:12:17 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • klasG4e,

    No one is defending the indiscriminate use of NFP found and taught in the Novus Ordo.  The only question is about Pius XII's teaching, and even those who say he was wrong understand that he stipulated the use of NFP on a grave reason.
    OK, right!  Sorry, if I may have been a distraction.