Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: PenitentWoman on July 19, 2012, 06:23:52 PM
-
My co-worker stopped in today with her less than 2 week old baby. She asked if I could babysit for a few hours this weekend so she can go grab a few drinks with some friends.
Not to be judgmental, but I think that is a little ridiculous.
I said yes because he is so adorable, but I fully intend to kidnap him. :wink:
-
It was kind of you to offer to help out your friend. You're right, it is ridiculous that she thought it somehow important to 'get out'. But this is the nature of the people in our society; nothing new, sadly.
-
Do you think it is morally wrong that I said yes? I was holding him when she asked. That's a cruel tactic..
-
Is she married?
-
Do you think it is morally wrong that I said yes? I was holding him when she asked. That's a cruel tactic..
This is what I am wondering. One of the ways we can sin, is in the cooperation of another person's sin. Yes, you're doing a good deed, but are we supposed to do a good deed if it's at the expense of something wrong or bad? Was your saying yes enabling her in her sin...assuming it is a sin for her to be out drinking? I'm just asking these questions in sincerity.
s2srea, or anyone, would you please weigh in with your thoughts? Thank you!
-
Having 'drinks with friends' is not morally wrong, in and of itself; it often is, in today's day and age, but we don't know the full circuмstances. I've gone out to 'have a drink' with friends from Church more than a few times. I don't know that I would approve of my wife or sister doing so. Having drinks when you have a 2 week old baby may be morally wrong, and is, at a minimum, bad parenting from a Traditional Catholic perspective; but it not unheard of in our society. There's the idea that having a baby is somehow so taxing on new mothers, that they now need before and after pregnancy massages and getaways; its so unnatural for modern man and woman to go through having children.
Its an extraordinary event- to have a child- to those who live and die by our world. Of course the banksters have been successful at convincing by marketing that there are new 'minimums' that we need to have babies; not only in the way of material things, but those things like I'd mentioned above that are somehow supposed to 'recharge' you after having a child. The, "I'm focusing on me now" is nothing new or surprising to us.
At the end of the day, PW said yes. If her conscience has her questioning her decision, she should go to her father confessor for advice. I see nothing wrong with her decision given the circuмstances; would I advise her to do it in the future? No. But she should be proud that she is realizing these things and questioning them. This is part of spiritual development. Things she's done before, she will not do anymore. She will make mistakes, and this is why her father confessor should be the one she confides all to in the confessional.
One can not negate the fact that there is a transition we all go through in our lives- whether we're born into Tradition, or find it later in life- its called conversion. Its a process that never ends. As long as we strive to reach our Blessed Lord with humility, and practice the virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity, his promise will reign true for us individually: "behold I am with you all days." Of course the best way to Him, as he wants it, is through his Blessed Mother, the Mediatrix of all Graces. Turning to her to reach her son is what he wishes.
We can remember the words of St. Louis De Montfort, especially since there is someone who has taken his namesake here, to help us understand this:
"It was through the Blessed Virgin Mary that Jesus came into the world, and it is also through her that he must reign in the world." "God has decided to begin and accomplish his greatest works through the Blessed Virgin ever since he created her, we can safely believe that he will not change his plan in the time to come, for he is God and therefore does not change in his thoughts or his way of acting." ". If devotion to the Blessed Virgin is necessary for all men simply to work out their salvation, it is even more necessary for those who are called to a special perfection. I do not believe that anyone can acquire intimate union with our Lord and perfect fidelity to the Holy Spirit without a very close union with the most Blessed Virgin and an absolute dependence on her support."
-
I think it would probably be enabling. ;-(
I hate being put on the spot especially when it involves sweet little babies. Her husband is picking the baby up after his shift (police officer) so he will be returned to a sober person.
She will pay me well because she knows I'm broke. Awhile back she helped me pay to get my phone turned back on. :-(
I wonder if it is any different then getting paid to actually serve the drinks when I'm working.
Maybe that's enabling too...
-
You forgot that new mothers now expect "push presents" -- Jєωelry for giving birth! As if your baby isn't gift enough! Very, very sad.
-
Women, & I guess people in general, are a different breed nowadays. I loved being with my kids & would never even think of leaving a 2 week old with someone for the evening.
It used to be that children started school at 6 in 1st grade. Years later they started at 5 in kindergarten. Then 'they' added pre-kinder, then preschool, and now there's nursery school for 3 years & under. The poor things can't spell or put a coherent sentence together for all that 'schooling'. Actually tho, it's really to free mommy to go out to play so she doesn't have to put up with her own undisciplined kids. I've noticed that women can't wait to get rid of their kids now - & the sooner the better. It's beyond sad.
-
That 2 week old baby is going to be turned over to his father, a policeman, who's just done a grueling shift??!!! He'll probably fall asleep! What are those people thinking of?!!! Better that the baby stay with you until the mom picks it up. But then she'll probably fall asleep too after a nite of drinking. Poor, poor child. I don't care how good a man he is, men just don't have what it takes to care for a newborn. Call me sexist, but that's the truth.
-
Do people not understand the thumbs down or do they disagree with me that push presents are sad?? Yeesh, I can't say anything right.
Thorn, I thought the same about the poor Dad. I should offer to keep the baby overnight so he can get some sleep.
-
So for the 5 people who gave me a thumbs down, I have an honest question. Is babysitting almost always immoral?
The priest had suggested I look into more babysitting to replace waitress work. Most prospective clients would be looking for sitters to get away from the kids, drink etc. Or maybe they need one to work an unnecessary second job. Am I always enabling?
-
Yes, please do - for the sake of that poor child. He'd be in better hands with you I think, as women (if they fall asleep with a baby) are more attuned to hear a baby than a man. Most men can sleep thro anything.
-
Do people not understand the thumbs down or do they disagree with me that push presents are sad?? Yeesh, I can't say anything right.
Thorn, I thought the same about the poor Dad. I should offer to keep the baby overnight so he can get some sleep.
For what it is worth, and you may have seen it, but just in case; I'm taking the liberty of copy and pasting from a thread I started. This perspective may have much merit, but I have some thoughts about it that are no doubt true, but won't make any change if I state them.
Roman, a lot of people get thumbs down. It could be for any number of reasons such as if they find one particular word in the post they disagree with or is not to their liking. Don't know if you know but a poster can only give one thumb down on a post, so if there is more than one thumb down you know it was more than one poster. My wife got one for posting a prayer...go figure. Just let it roll off your back, ask yourself how important is it to your salvation...
keep it in perspective. :pray:
-
PW, I didn't down thumb you & I probably shouldn't speak for others, but I think that people were disagreeing with push presents & not your post. I've never heard of push presents & find it disgusting & I'm thinking a few others don't like the idea either.
What they apparently don't understand is that the thumbs down counts against you. If they don't like the idea of push presents, then they should say so. But some people are weird or cowards or something.
I thought that the thumbs up or down signified that you liked or didn't like the post & agreed or disagreed with your stand. Who knows what it means to someone else?
-
Thanks Roman.
It brings me back to high school homecoming when I suggested we invite the girl with down syndrome to cheer with us for the football game instead of sitting on the sidelines.
I got the nastiest notes in my locker for weeks.
.
-
Thanks Roman.
It brings me back to high school homecoming when I suggested we invite the girl with down syndrome to cheer with us for the football game instead of sitting on the sidelines.
I got the nastiest notes in my locker for weeks.
.
That is quite alright. So sorry to hear of your suffering coming from the good you did. A good priest once told me: "You may have to suffer in this life for your sins, but you may have to suffer for someone elses sins too." I finally figured out what was meant by uniting our sufferings with Our Lord. A 'lurking, jealous person is behind it- I'd bet on it and yes, I'm a 'gambling man', in one sense.
-
So for the 5 people who gave me a thumbs down, I have an honest question. Is babysitting almost always immoral?
The priest had suggested I look into more babysitting to replace waitress work. Most prospective clients would be looking for sitters to get away from the kids, drink etc. Or maybe they need one to work an unnecessary second job. Am I always enabling?
PW I don't think anyone said or implied it's immoral to babysit. The way I read it was IF we know the parent(s) are going to be doing something that as Catholics we shouldn't help them along in, then perhaps we would refrain.
Like s2srea said, it's best you talk with your priest confessor about these types of matters. He is the one qualified to judge individual circuмstances, etc and give you the best counsel on the matter.
-
Penitent Woman,
I wouldn't get too worked up over this. Always do your best to give people the benefit of the doubt and to try to understand their weaknesses.
Every chance you get, compliment her on her beautiful newborn and encourage her to become a Catholic. If she's already one, encourage her to attend a Traditional Chapel with you. That way the two of you can back each other up.
-
PW you really have done nothing bad. Who could resist the opportunity to hold a teeny baby for a couple of hours and be a good friend. I know I would not have been able to say no.
And if her husband's a cop, I am sure the wee one will make him glad he's out there on the job! Some men are great with babies.
-
A good priest once told me: "You may have to suffer in this life for your sins, but you may have to suffer for someone elses sins too." I finally figured out what was meant by uniting our sufferings with Our Lord. A 'lurking, jealous person is behind it- I'd bet on it and yes, I'm a 'gambling man', in one sense.
Our Blessed Lord Himself tells us we must guard against rash judgments. Seems I recall on another thread the same 'lurking jealous person' accusation and some posters offered kindly fraternal correction. Unless we have proof we are not to cast blame or fault. And even with specific knowledge of another person's fault we are supposed to keep quiet lest we detract. Look around, a lot of people get thumbs up and down, it is not limited to a chosen few.
Just trying to offer a helpful word. :pray:
-
I'm being too sensitive. I am going to meet with the priest again hopefully next week. I will ask about this because I'm sure it won't be the last time I'm asked. My list of questions is quite long. :scared2:
Thorn, I agree that the push present thing is crazy. Pregnancy and childbirth are amazing things, but the commercialization of something so amazing really cheapens it.
PW you really have done nothing bad. Who could resist the opportunity to hold a teeny baby for a couple of hours and be a good friend. I know I would not have been able to say no.
And if her husband's a cop, I am sure the wee one will make him glad he's out there on the job! Some men are great with babies.
Thanks Elizabeth. I love newborns. I am anxious to see how my little peanut will react. She might be jealous. :wink:
-
I'm being too sensitive. I am going to meet with the priest again hopefully next week. I will ask about this because I'm sure it won't be the last time I'm asked. My list of questions is quite long. :scared2:
Thorn, I agree that the push present thing is crazy. Pregnancy and childbirth are amazing things, but the commercialization of something so amazing really cheapens it.
Thanks Elizabeth. I love newborns. I am anxious to see how my little peanut will react. She might be jealous. :wink:
PW, you are indeed blessed to have a wise and holy priest whom you can seek counsel from. Deo Gratias and thank you Blessed Mother!
I guess I'm in company with Thorn, I have never heard about "push presents" until now. When I first read it my mind wasn't registering and all I could think of was a lawnmower... I guess that's what a guy gets for reading a lady-like thread (http://i6.ifrm.com/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)
And yes, there is nothing sweeter than a wee newborn to love and care for!
-
You forgot that new mothers now expect "push presents"
ha ha
I've not heard that one before.
Do you get a nicer present for a long, hard labor or are the best ones reserved for the quick and efficient labors? :rolleyes:
-
You forgot that new mothers now expect "push presents"
ha ha
I've not heard that one before.
Do you get a nicer present for a long, hard labor or are the best ones reserved for the quick and efficient labors? :rolleyes:
LOL good question. The poor fathers and the pressure..
-
Oh he is so snuggly and sweet!!!
Wish I could be home rocking babies every night. Perfect job!
My little pumpkin doesn't seem jealous but just clingy. We did examine his tiny hands and she didn't try to taste them so that's good, lol.
I hope someday I am blessed with at least two fairly close together because this is fun. :)
-
Oh he is so snuggly and sweet!!!
Wish I could be home rocking babies every night. Perfect job!
My little pumpkin doesn't seem jealous but just clingy. We did examine his tiny hands and she didn't try to taste them so that's good, lol.
I hope someday I am blessed with at least two fairly close together because this is fun. :)
Hey there girlie, just remember kidnapping is a crime in most states...ha!
(http://i6.ifrm.com/html/emoticons/laugh.gif) (http://i6.ifrm.com/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)
-
I would never leave my 2 week old either. In fact on another thread I mentioned I don't leave them for the first year. But I wouldn't judge someone else for "needing" to. And I truly wouldn't judge, not just say so then proceed to do so.
I would worry if she starts to exhibit a pattern of such behavior but not the first time or even every time she went out. I say this as someone who has never been the "go out for drinks with the girls" type. It's not my thing and it may or may not be moral depending on how much they drink, where they go or what entertainment they have, but aside from that I do understand some people need a break. I hesitate to think it has anything to do with not loving her baby.
It's been 9 months so perhaps you forget how exhausting the nine months of pregnancy, childbirth and the first few weeks with a newborn are. I don't blame any mother looking for a bit of recreation once in a while. In fact it's essential to her sanity sometimes. The first advice against shaken baby syndrome is to step away when you are overwhelmed. Not to say that's what's happening here but I am making the point that stepping away is not intrinsically evil. It can be a good. And we don't know what her circuмstances are. I have a lot of patience and calm with babies but I know it's more than most. In other words I am grateful for it but realize it's above average and don't expect everyone else to be like me in that respect. I try not to look down on those who don't have the same level of patience unless they show bad will in their impatience.
There's also personalities to take into consideration. I am introverted. The most refreshing thing for me is peace and quiet. DH took everyone but the baby out of the house for a couple hours today. That was so refreshing for me! The quiet ... Ahh... That's how he " spoils" me now and then. But people who are extroverted are refreshed by going out and noise and by being with other people. As much as I can't fathom it ( thats the definition of hell for me!) I do understand it intellectually. If she is extroverted it makes perfect sense that at the exact time when some of us think there would be nothing in the world better than to stay home with our babies, she is seeking refreshment outside. If that's the case she isn't alone in that and is behaving quite in line with her extroversion.
Of course she may be a terrible mother and all my points are for naught but I hope it gives some food for thought to help you perhaps be more well rounded in your assessment. Unless a pattern of behavior arises it's very premature to be calling her ridiculous or assuming she is a bad mother (implied in all the mothers of today talk) Especially with what little we have to go on.
-
I have heard of push presents and find it is a very crass term. I disagree with women expecting or demanding them but when a husband wants to gift his wife out of his own desire to show his love and appreciation for her and the gift of the child she just gave him, I find it sweet. It's all in the circuмstance.
-
Hey there girlie, just remember kidnapping is a crime in most states...ha!
(http://i6.ifrm.com/html/emoticons/laugh.gif) (http://i6.ifrm.com/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)
Awww, are you sure?? ;-)
Two sleeping babies. God is good.
-
I would never leave my 2 week old either. In fact on another thread I mentioned I don't leave them for the first year. But I wouldn't judge someone else for "needing" to. And I truly wouldn't judge, not just say so then proceed to do so.
I would worry if she starts to exhibit a pattern of such behavior but not the first time or even every time she went out. I say this as someone who has never been the "go out for drinks with the girls" type. It's not my thing and it may or may not be moral depending on how much they drink, where they go or what entertainment they have, but aside from that I do understand some people need a break. I hesitate to think it has anything to do with not loving her baby.
It's been 9 months so perhaps you forget how exhausting the nine months of pregnancy, childbirth and the first few weeks with a newborn are. I don't blame any mother looking for a bit of recreation once in a while. In fact it's essential to her sanity sometimes. The first advice against shaken baby syndrome is to step away when you are overwhelmed. Not to say that's what's happening here but I am making the point that stepping away is not intrinsically evil. It can be a good. And we don't know what her circuмstances are. I have a lot of patience and calm with babies but I know it's more than most. In other words I am grateful for it but realize it's above average and don't expect everyone else to be like me in that respect. I try not to look down on those who don't have the same level of patience unless they show bad will in their impatience.
There's also personalities to take into consideration. I am introverted. The most refreshing thing for me is peace and quiet. DH took everyone but the baby out of the house for a couple hours today. That was so refreshing for me! The quiet ... Ahh... That's how he " spoils" me now and then. But
people who are extroverted are refreshed by going out and noise and by being with other people. As much as I can't fathom it ( thats the definition of hell for me!) I do understand it intellectually. If she is extroverted it makes perfect sense that at the exact time whi was en some of us think there would be nothing in the world better than to stay home with our babies, she is seeking refreshment outside. If that's the case she isn't alone in that and is behaving quite in line with her extroversion.tthey
Of course she may be a terrible mother and all my points are for naught but I hope it gives some food for thought to help you perhaps be more well rounded in your assessment. Unless a pattern of behavior arises it's very premature to be calling her ridiculous or assuming she is a bad mother (implied in all the mothers of today talk) Especially with what little we have to go on.
I'm not trying to be judgmental of her. I just think a two week old should be with his mother unless of an emergency. She formula feeds so I guess maybe that makes a difference. At two weeks I was nursing constantly and couldn't have left.
Yes, people do have different personalities, but I don't think a mother should use her extrovert personality to justify unnecessary time away from home. It bugs me when I hear women say they don't NEED to work but can't stand the lack of adult interaction at home. Why become a mother then?? I'd give anything to be at home.
-
You're also not trying NOT to be judgmental of her. Going out for a couple of hours without her baby is not a matter of sin or morality but you are imposing your ideas on her as if it were a matter of morality. No priest will tell you it is a sin to go out without your 2 week old. Other circuмstances may be sinful like where one goes, whether they go out everyday and neglect their children etc... But going out for recreation without the baby in and of itself is not sinful. Whether it's something you agree with or not. Whether it's something you would do or not. That's what I'm saying. You can't impose your personal preference on her as if it were a matter of morality and she is automatically wrong or less loving of her child than you or less of a mother than you. It's just not an automatic truth. A lot depends on circuмstance.
-
So by agreeing to babysit I enabled her decision to go have cocktails, which I admitted could amount to sin. I didn't think well on the spot and I love babies.
Now Wallflower you are saying if I have an opinion about her decision I am not trying hard enough to not judge?
Edit: I'm sorry if I said something hurtful. This happened yesterday with Tiffany too.
I'm upsetting people and I apologize.
-
Not really. You can have an opinion, I'm not saying you can't. But the way you are expressing that opinion shows judgment of her which I believe may not be fair.
Saying "I disagree that a 2 week old should be away from his mother but maybe she really needs a break" is different from saying "Oh, that's ridiculous". It's not just having an opinion, it's trying to impose it as the only right way and if someone else does something different they are ridiculous and why should they even become mothers in the first place?!
She is your friend so maybe you are going by what you know of her beyond what you've said here, it's possible. But based on what's here, she wants to go out once in 2 weeks (or longer counting nine months of pregnancy) and she wants a little adult interaction -- I don't see how that warrants questioning why she should even be a mother in the first place. Nothing about that is wrong or outweighs the good of being a mother. These are things that even wise traditional priests would understand completely and even encourage in some circuмstances.
Again, I stress it because it is important, circuмstances could change the morality of the question, but the bare bones of it are pretty neutral.
(No nothing hurtful :)
-
I am not downrating you btw. I saw you have a few and don't want you to worry that it's because you're upsetting me. I am not upset although I know I can come off that way sometimes. I just don't know how to be as sweet on paper as in person :wink: :laugh1:
I need to use more flowery words or something, I don't know.
-
This whole modern mothering really bothers me.
When I was a young girl, my grandma always told me when you become a mama, you put away your girlish ways. You do things with mothers and you stay home with your babies.
I nursed all my babies, so I never left one of them with anybody for longer than a nursing. And I never leave the house, except for Mass, during the first month.
It seems to me that a lot of modern women just see having babies as another thing to do, like getting a puppy or something.
I think it's all because this daycare mentality has become ingrained in our society.
In 1975, there was really no such thing as day care. Oh sure, you could find some little grandma who would watch your baby for you. But women just didn't leave their babies at that age to go get drinks with friends. If she did, you could best bet her husband was gonna be out looking for her and drag her home to be with the baby.
There is just some huge disconnect, in my opinion.
I don't babysit people's children except for good reasons because it just goes against my personal conscience. I will babysit for my friend if she needs to go to the doctor or for her to go out to dinner with her husband.
But I don't babysit for women to go to work (although I would if she had to go to work, i.e. single mom, husband ill, or desperate need)
I have been out with my married friends for dinner before, but my husband kept the children and some mothers brought their tiny ones.
-
I have to say I agree with you, CathMom. I've been reading this thread, and I started to think maybe I am just old-fashioned in my thinking. I'm not so sure that "any traditional priest" would say there is no problem with a mother doing this, not to mention her husband permitting it. It's not just about going out for drinks, it's about an attitude or disposition toward what ought to be one's station in life. But, that is the world and it's trappings in a nutshell.
-
Well I do think it was ridiculous. He is two weeks old and should be with his mother.
I had to leave my baby at 6 weeks to go back to work and cried half the day. Leaving her to go drinking would have been ridiculous.
CathMom7, I agree with you about modern mothers.
I agreed to this because I love babies, have no husband who needs my time tonight,
and it is income for me.
I wonder what Blessed Mother would think of a mom going out to drink two weeks postpartum. I don't think she would approve or care about the mother's personality needs. Shouldn't all mothers ask that before making parenting decisions?
-
It seems to me that a lot of modern women just see having babies as another thing to do, like getting a puppy or something.
That's exactly right, and getting a husband is the same way for many of them.
Most young women learn in their coeducational years to separate sex from marriage and child-bearing, and they take that separation to be a matter of course.
Is it any wonder after living that way for many years that the husband and children become adjuncts to that life-style? So much so that there is a strong tendency towards adultery and divorce?
-
I have to say I agree with you, CathMom. I've been reading this thread, and I started to think maybe I am just old-fashioned in my thinking. I'm not so sure that "any traditional priest" would say there is no problem with a mother doing this, not to mention her husband permitting it. It's not just about going out for drinks, it's about an attitude or disposition toward what ought to be one's station in life. But, that is the world and it's trappings in a nutshell.
The traditional priest I met with didn't believe working in a bar was a good environment for a mother, I doubt he would approve of me going to one to sit and drink. I can't see any holy man (priest OR layperson) who would approve of women leaving brand new babies to have drinks.
-
In the past babies were often given to nurses to take care of in Catholic countries. I don't know what age they were given.
Now I don't think much of that, but that doesn't mean it was sinful.
We can criticize the priorities and values of other people without finding moral fault and condemning them.
If there is an underlying fault causing her to wish to escape her responsibility to her baby, it is likely that it will find more serious forms of expression.
-
I have to say I agree with you, CathMom. I've been reading this thread, and I started to think maybe I am just old-fashioned in my thinking. I'm not so sure that "any traditional priest" would say there is no problem with a mother doing this, not to mention her husband permitting it. It's not just about going out for drinks, it's about an attitude or disposition toward what ought to be one's station in life. But, that is the world and it's trappings in a nutshell.
The traditional priest I met with didn't believe working in a bar was a good environment for a mother, I doubt he would approve of me going to one to sit and drink. I can't see any holy man (priest OR layperson) who would approve of women leaving brand new babies to have drinks.
Yes, PW, in my humble opinion you are correct. Your comment about what would Our Blessed Mother think of such a circuмstance tells me you have your Catholic bearings about you. We can pray for the new mother. And if you have some Holy Water in your home, bless the little one with it. If you don't have any, maybe when you see your priest next time you can bring a container and fill it. God bless and reward your generosity for taking good care of the wee newborn.
-
I have to say I agree with you, CathMom. I've been reading this thread, and I started to think maybe I am just old-fashioned in my thinking. I'm not so sure that "any traditional priest" would say there is no problem with a mother doing this, not to mention her husband permitting it. It's not just about going out for drinks, it's about an attitude or disposition toward what ought to be one's station in life. But, that is the world and it's trappings in a nutshell.
The traditional priest I met with didn't believe working in a bar was a good environment for a mother, I doubt he would approve of me going to one to sit and drink. I can't see any holy man (priest OR layperson) who would approve of women leaving brand new babies to have drinks.
Yes, PW, in my humble opinion you are correct. Your comment about what would Our Blessed Mother think of such a circuмstance tells me you have your Catholic bearings about you. We can pray for the new mother. And if you have some Holy Water in your home, bless the little one with it. If you don't have any, maybe when you see your priest next time you can bring a container and fill it. God bless and reward your generosity for taking good care of the wee newborn.
Thank you. I am going to ask for holy water when I meet with the priest again. I forgot all about that.
-
I have to say I agree with you, CathMom. I've been reading this thread, and I started to think maybe I am just old-fashioned in my thinking. I'm not so sure that "any traditional priest" would say there is no problem with a mother doing this, not to mention her husband permitting it. It's not just about going out for drinks, it's about an attitude or disposition toward what ought to be one's station in life. But, that is the world and it's trappings in a nutshell.
The traditional priest I met with didn't believe working in a bar was a good environment for a mother, I doubt he would approve of me going to one to sit and drink. I can't see any holy man (priest OR layperson) who would approve of women leaving brand new babies to have drinks.
That's why I say the circuмstances may change things. However you aren't just in disagreement with the drinks, you are also in disagreement with her leaving her 2 week old, period. By what you're saying it seems that no matter what she were doing, going to a hair app't for example or grocery shopping or whatever else, you would think she were just some uninterested "modern" mother. All this talk of I would nevah! That's what I'm trying to get across is not necessarily a moral issue or a defect in her motherhood although some of you are reacting as though it is. Even the drinks depending on where they go may not be an issue. Are they going to a club to get drunk or to a pub to have a drink or two with dinner? We don't know. Those details do make a difference.
-
I have to say I agree with you, CathMom. I've been reading this thread, and I started to think maybe I am just old-fashioned in my thinking. I'm not so sure that "any traditional priest" would say there is no problem with a mother doing this, not to mention her husband permitting it. It's not just about going out for drinks, it's about an attitude or disposition toward what ought to be one's station in life. But, that is the world and it's trappings in a nutshell.
The traditional priest I met with didn't believe working in a bar was a good environment for a mother, I doubt he would approve of me going to one to sit and drink. I can't see any holy man (priest OR layperson) who would approve of women leaving brand new babies to have drinks.
That's why I say the circuмstances may change things. However you aren't just in disagreement with the drinks, you are also in disagreement with her leaving her 2 week old, period. By what you're saying it seems that no matter what she were doing, going to a hair app't for example or grocery shopping or whatever else, you would think she were just some uninterested "modern" mother. All this talk of I would nevah! That's what I'm trying to get across is not necessarily a moral issue or a defect in her motherhood although some of you are reacting as though it is. Even the drinks depending on where they go may not be an issue. Are they going to a club to get drunk or to a pub to have a drink or two with dinner? We don't know. Those details do make a difference.
I find it disturbing because it shows the selfishness and self-centeredness of the mother, period.
By definition, motherhood is about self sacrifice. You sacrifice your body to growing your baby. Your sacrifice what foods you eat and what you drink so your baby can have the best start in life.
You sacrifice your old life for your new life as wife and mother. Going out for drinks, whether one or 7, with your girlfriends is not an appropriate adventure for a new mother. Period.
Going to dinner with other mothers and their children would be more appropriate because it focuses mothers on their new roles and responsibilities, and helps them to associate with women who are in the same state in life.
There are admittedly some places women cannot go with their tiny babies. A beauty salon, perhaps, but definitely a doctor's appointment. It is a good thing to volunteer under these circuмstances.
Going to the grocery with your babies and children is important and necessary. It shows others that you are a wife and mother attempting to care for your home. Men will not flirt with you in the grocery line under these circuмstances. It is also good practice for children learning to behave in public and practicing obedience and self-control. Mother's absolutely should not leave their children at home just to go grocery shopping.
My point is simple. Once you get married, your life changes. Your focus is your husband and your home. When you have children, it changes again.
Unfortunately we live in a society today where women do not know their place. They want to party and socialize all the time. Women have other duties. Their duties are nurturing and caretaking, organizing and planning. A better use of time would be visiting grandma and taking her dinner or visiting another young mother to help her organize her kitchen or something similar.
In times past, very few married women went out of their homes without their husbands or children. And when they did, they went with other married women or their relatives. And usually it was for something suggested above.
-
I could not agree more, CathMom. The one and only thing we must always keep before our eyes is gaining Heaven for all eternity. Our station in life must be ordered to this end. God has entrusted a wife and mother with a very wonderful, yet grave responsibility in her duty to help her family get to Heaven.
-
Speaking of drinking and babies and all that, would you be upset if you were to pick up your little children from a babysitter, whom you would know, and the babysitter had beer breath? Granted, they never left the house. But still. Beer breath.
Thoughts?
-
I agree with you, too, CathMomof7. Either a woman knows her place and duties or she does not. Considerations such as "the circuмstances" and "judging people" are just opportunities to make excuses for falling into the feminist traps of society.
-
I have to say I agree with you, CathMom. I've been reading this thread, and I started to think maybe I am just old-fashioned in my thinking. I'm not so sure that "any traditional priest" would say there is no problem with a mother doing this, not to mention her husband permitting it. It's not just about going out for drinks, it's about an attitude or disposition toward what ought to be one's station in life. But, that is the world and it's trappings in a nutshell.
The traditional priest I met with didn't believe working in a bar was a good environment for a mother, I doubt he would approve of me going to one to sit and drink. I can't see any holy man (priest OR layperson) who would approve of women leaving brand new babies to have drinks.
That's why I say the circuмstances may change things. However you aren't just in disagreement with the drinks, you are also in disagreement with her leaving her 2 week old, period. By what you're saying it seems that no matter what she were doing, going to a hair app't for example or grocery shopping or whatever else, you would think she were just some uninterested "modern" mother. All this talk of I would nevah! That's what I'm trying to get across is not necessarily a moral issue or a defect in her motherhood although some of you are reacting as though it is. Even the drinks depending on where they go may not be an issue. Are they going to a club to get drunk or to a pub to have a drink or two with dinner? We don't know. Those details do make a difference.
I find it disturbing because it shows the selfishness and self-centeredness of the mother, period.
By definition, motherhood is about self sacrifice. You sacrifice your body to growing your baby. Your sacrifice what foods you eat and what you drink so your baby can have the best start in life.
You sacrifice your old life for your new life as wife and mother. Going out for drinks, whether one or 7, with your girlfriends is not an appropriate adventure for a new mother. Period.
Going to dinner with other mothers and their children would be more appropriate because it focuses mothers on their new roles and responsibilities, and helps them to associate with women who are in the same state in life.
There are admittedly some places women cannot go with their tiny babies. A beauty salon, perhaps, but definitely a doctor's appointment. It is a good thing to volunteer under these circuмstances.
Going to the grocery with your babies and children is important and necessary. It shows others that you are a wife and mother attempting to care for your home. Men will not flirt with you in the grocery line under these circuмstances. It is also good practice for children learning to behave in public and practicing obedience and self-control. Mother's absolutely should not leave their children at home just to go grocery shopping.
My point is simple. Once you get married, your life changes. Your focus is your husband and your home. When you have children, it changes again.
Unfortunately we live in a society today where women do not know their place. They want to party and socialize all the time. Women have other duties. Their duties are nurturing and caretaking, organizing and planning. A better use of time would be visiting grandma and taking her dinner or visiting another young mother to help her organize her kitchen or something similar.
In times past, very few married women went out of their homes without their husbands or children. And when they did, they went with other married women or their relatives. And usually it was for something suggested above.
I agree with most of what you say and have said nothing to contradict it. However I'll try to make the point one more time, this mother is going out ONCE! You're talking about society today... women don't know their place... yes, it's all true and it's all unfortunate and we strive not to live that way.
BUT you cannot tell if this particular mother is that way based on her going out ONCE. Everything that is being inferred about her is premature. If PW came here to post about her partying every weekend or even every other weekend, then maybe we could draw the conclusion that she is not a dedicated mother, and as I said I am open to that being a possibility, but we cannot tell right here and now by her going out for the first time in 10 months and so far only ONCE.
It's a couple of hours, not a couple of days or weeks. I think a little perspective and common sense is in order here. The very fact that motherhood is about self-sacrifice is the very reason a mother needs to refresh and regroup once in a while. Nothing about that changes that motherhood is a wonderful and grave responsibility. It actually supports it.
As for the grocery store, it was an example, not an invitation to debate whether or not we should bring our children. That isn't a matter of morality or better or worse parenting either. In fact many responsible parents won't bring their newborns out at all to keep them shielded from illness and outside viruses while still so vulnerable. I cringe at bringing them anywhere until they are about 2-3 months and past the teeny-tiny stage. I always especially hate that 2 week visit to the doctor, sitting in the waiting room with such a vulnerable babe while others are hacking away. I'm covering my baby and looking around like this :furtive:
-
I agree with you, too, CathMomof7. Either a woman knows her place and duties or she does not. Considerations such as "the circuмstances" and "judging people" are just opportunities to make excuses for falling into the feminist traps of society.
As far as I know considering circuмstances is deeply Catholic. It's immorality and amorality that don't consider circuмstance because they believe they can do as they choose and think of it as they please with no regard for any standards. Catholicism necessarily considers circuмstances.
-
As far as I know considering circuмstances is deeply Catholic. It's immorality and amorality that don't consider circuмstance because they believe they can do as they choose and think of it as they please with no regard for any standards. Catholicism necessarily considers circuмstances.
Sounds like you're trying to confuse subjective culpability with situational ethics.
-
Penitent - I don't think it's so much you upsetting Tiffany & Wallflower as them upsetting you. I think you're on track so don't sweat the small stuff of some people's tendencies to go round & round & then round some more.
Bottom line is that newborns should be with the mothers exclusively except in very special circomstances, & going out for a drink isn't one of them. Whether it's moral or immoral; or you're enabling or not is for you & a priest to decide after looking at all the info you have & we don't.
-
I agree with PW. A 2 week old belongs with mom. Something is not right. Some women may have what is called the "baby blues". For myself it lasted 24 hours and I don't know if others had it longer. Mine occured about the 4th week after birth. If there is nothing wrong, then mom should be with baby.
-
She didn't look at this as from the perspective of the baby being only two weeks old. She looked at it as 42 weeks she hasn't been able to go have drinks.
Her husband did not really approve of her going out already, which is why she asked me to watch instead of waiting until he had a night off. It is obvious he gets up with baby a lot, despite her being on maternity leave. I won't babysit again unless the two of them arrange it together. Not only did I enable her drinking, but I inadvertently enabled her disobeying her husband.
I don't think this is symptomatic of baby blues. She is being social,not withdrawn. I could be wrong though.
CathMomof7, I really admire you. You're so blessed with your big family.
-
Songbird if your "baby blues" lasted only 24 hours then they were not truly baby blues. Post partum depression is a very real condition that requires treatment, it's not just a passing bad mood.
PW now you are adding more pertinent information. That's what I meant by you may know more than you told us. It changes the picture quite a bit.
Her particulars aside, you will be hard pressed to find many trad priests who believe leaving a two week old for a couple hours is wrong or sinful or even intrinsically bad mothering. Perhaps you are new to tradition, I am not. I grew up in it, in a large family, now have my own. I've known many mothers, many families and many priests -- this has never been advanced before in any of those circles. Be careful getting your advice online. Truly. That includes me I suppose but since I am confident my position is shared by those qualified to give such advice, I am not too worried about it.
For those so adamant otherwise, I am curious, when would you find it appropriate for a mother to take recreation? 6 weeks? 6 months? 2 years? never?
-
Thinking something is ridiculous or unwise or not befitting a virtuous motherhood isn't the same as thinking it's sinful.
-
Wallflower I will take your word that a traditional priest would not object. I am completely new to the this so I am still learning. I made a guess based on things I've read about wives/mothers in Catholic families.
As to when it is okay to the leave the baby? I don't know exactly. When I had to leave mine at 6 weeks, it went against every ounce of motherly instinct I had. It felt wrong because it was wrong.
-
Thinking something is ridiculous or unwise or not befitting a virtuous motherhood isn't the same as thinking it's sinful.
Which is why I also said "intrinsically bad mothering".
-
Wallflower I will take your word that a traditional priest would not object. I am completely new to the this so I am still learning. I made a guess based on things I've read about wives/mothers in Catholic families.
As to when it is okay to the leave the baby? I don't know exactly. When I had to leave mine at 6 weeks, it went against every ounce of motherly instinct I had. It felt wrong because it was wrong.
How do you know it was wrong? Is there a reason or do you just feel it?
The reason I ask is because we tend to get emotional about our babies. We worry, we fret, we are always questioning ourselves, if we're doing the right things. It's just what mothers do. But those emotions arenot necessarily the gage of what's right or wrong.
I had to leave one of mine at three weeks old to get dental work done. A filling had fallen out at the beginning of the pregnancy and I had chewed on the other side for ten months because I didn't want the work done while pregnant. But I felt bad and missed him and wished I didn't have to leave him. Was it actually wrong to leave him that afternoon? Of course not! But it's an example of how as mothers we can get overly emotional about things. I think there's some of that going on here as well with regards to believing only a lesser mother could leave her newborn for some recreation. A lot of it is running on feelings, how we feel about it and assuming everyone should feel the same or they just aren't good enough.
-
Songbird if your "baby blues" lasted only 24 hours then they were not truly baby blues. Post partum depression is a very real condition that requires treatment, it's not just a passing bad mood.
PW now you are adding more pertinent information. That's what I meant by you may know more than you told us. It changes the picture quite a bit.
Her particulars aside, you will be hard pressed to find many trad priests who believe leaving a two week old for a couple hours is wrong or sinful or even intrinsically bad mothering. Perhaps you are new to tradition, I am not. I grew up in it, in a large family, now have my own. I've known many mothers, many families and many priests -- this has never been advanced before in any of those circles. Be careful getting your advice online. Truly. That includes me I suppose but since I am confident my position is shared by those qualified to give such advice, I am not too worried about it.
For those so adamant otherwise, I am curious, when would you find it appropriate for a mother to take recreation? 6 weeks? 6 months? 2 years? never?
(http://i2.ifrm.com/16087/138/emo/smileymad2.gif)
That's all I have to say.
-
Wallflower I will take your word that a traditional priest would not object. I am completely new to the this so I am still learning. I made a guess based on things I've read about wives/mothers in Catholic families.
As to when it is okay to the leave the baby? I don't know exactly. When I had to leave mine at 6 weeks, it went against every ounce of motherly instinct I had. It felt wrong because it was wrong.
How do you know it was wrong? Is there a reason or do you just feel it?
The reason I ask is because we tend to get emotional about our babies. We worry, we fret, we are always questioning ourselves, if we're doing the right things. It's just what mothers do. But those emotions arenot necessarily the gage of what's right or wrong.
I had to leave one of mine at three weeks old to get dental work done. A filling had fallen out at the beginning of the pregnancy and I had chewed on the other side for ten months because I didn't want the work done while pregnant. But I felt bad and missed him and wished I didn't have to leave him. Was it actually wrong to leave him that afternoon? Of course not! But it's an example of how as mothers we can get overly emotional about things. I think there's some of that going on here as well with regards to believing only a lesser mother could leave her newborn for some recreation. A lot of it is running on feelings, how we feel about it and assuming everyone should feel the same or they just aren't good enough.
My emotions may have been involved, but putting a six week old in childcare should never feel okay.
A dental appointment isn't wrong if it can't wait, but that's a far cry from taking leisure time.
-
Wallflower I will take your word that a traditional priest would not object. I am completely new to the this so I am still learning. I made a guess based on things I've read about wives/mothers in Catholic families.
As to when it is okay to the leave the baby? I don't know exactly. When I had to leave mine at 6 weeks, it went against every ounce of motherly instinct I had. It felt wrong because it was wrong.
How do you know it was wrong? Is there a reason or do you just feel it?
The reason I ask is because we tend to get emotional about our babies. We worry, we fret, we are always questioning ourselves, if we're doing the right things. It's just what mothers do. But those emotions arenot necessarily the gage of what's right or wrong.
I had to leave one of mine at three weeks old to get dental work done. A filling had fallen out at the beginning of the pregnancy and I had chewed on the other side for ten months because I didn't want the work done while pregnant. But I felt bad and missed him and wished I didn't have to leave him. Was it actually wrong to leave him that afternoon? Of course not! But it's an example of how as mothers we can get overly emotional about things. I think there's some of that going on here as well with regards to believing only a lesser mother could leave her newborn for some recreation. A lot of it is running on feelings, how we feel about it and assuming everyone should feel the same or they just aren't good enough.
My emotions may have been involved, but putting a six week old in childcare should never feel okay.
A dental appointment isn't wrong if it can't wait, but that's a far cry from taking leisure time.
I agree with you totally. Leaving the child with a trusted watcher would be fine if the occasion were both necessary and inappropriate for the presence of a young child. Leisure is not one of those circuмstances, I don't care what you're doing, who you're doing it with, or how innocent the behavior is. Motherhood is a responsibility and you don't get to pick and choose when the exercise of that responsibility is convenient.
-
So, beer breath on babysitters is cool, then? Okay. Just making sure. Thanks!
-
So, beer breath on babysitters is cool, then? Okay. Just making sure. Thanks!
No, not okay. Did I miss something?
-
(http://i2.ifrm.com/16087/138/emo/smileymad2.gif)
That's all I have to say.
There is a problem with the idea that going out to "have drinks" with "girlfriends" is appropriate conduct for women. Let alone young mothers with newborns.
wallflower isn't interested in defending this anonymous woman's reputation, but in defending the practices of women in this degraded modern culture.
It's evident to me that this sort of behavior is rife not just among modern women, but among trad women.
This was not the case among decent Catholic women in the past. To drink in public houses without their husband while baby is at home.
-
(http://i2.ifrm.com/16087/138/emo/smileymad2.gif)
That's all I have to say.
There is a problem with the idea that going out to "have drinks" with "girlfriends" is appropriate conduct for women. Let alone young mothers with newborns.
wallflower isn't interested in defending this anonymous woman's reputation, but in defending the practices of women in this degraded modern culture.
It's evident to me that this sort of behavior is rife not just among modern women, but among trad women.
This was not the case among decent Catholic women in the past. To drink in public houses without their husband while baby is at home.
You know very well that "drinking in public houses" is not what I am defending. If you don't know it, get yourself some reading comprehension and reread the thread. I have zero tolerance for your dishonest mind games. Go play them with someone else.
My point has been whether or not it is true that mothers taking leisure time once in a while is always and everywhere incompatible with motherhood.
People are imposing a negative moral connotation based on ... nothing whatsoever but a few words about "responsibility". But since when does recreation negate someone's responsibility? Priests take leisure time. Fathers take leisure time. Nuns take leisure time. Are they all of a sudden lesser priests, fathers and nuns? Are they suddenly completely irresponsible "liberals" shirking their heavenly duties?
What's ridiculous is this notion that women don't have the exact same human nature that requires recreation and a break from their duties. Motherhood changes a lot of things including the fact that a mother doesn't get leisure time on a daily basis, which the other three vocations can (and do by order of their rules. Hmm leisure time as a rule? Some food for thought on its good and necessity). However, to take it away completely for months (or years?) on end based on nothing whatsoever but one's personal preference and assumptions about others as lesser mothers is completely misguided.
Human nature dictates that an occasional outing is supportive of motherhood rather than against it. Especially since she usually has no time for herself on a daily basis and she does revolve around a higher level of self-sacrifice. That makes it even more important to make sure she has a moment to regroup. It's simply about acknowledging the basics of humanity. Nothing more and nothing less.
-
I think that if we can agree that nursing is how God designed babies to be fed, it is pretty clear that a very young infant should not be away from Mom very much. Newborn babies nurse almost constantly, or at least it seemed that way for me.
Another interesting thing is that Babies R Us sells a product called "Milkscreen" for testing the alcohol content of breastmilk, so that after a few too many cocktails you can determine whether or not you can feed the baby yet. It seems a little sad that there is apparently a market for this.Everything I've read says a single drink is harmless, so the need for this product says a lot about the social life expectations of new mothers.
-
(http://i2.ifrm.com/16087/138/emo/smileymad2.gif)
That's all I have to say.
There is a problem with the idea that going out to "have drinks" with "girlfriends" is appropriate conduct for women. Let alone young mothers with newborns.
wallflower isn't interested in defending this anonymous woman's reputation, but in defending the practices of women in this degraded modern culture.
It's evident to me that this sort of behavior is rife not just among modern women, but among trad women.
This was not the case among decent Catholic women in the past. To drink in public houses without their husband while baby is at home.
What's ridiculous is this notion that women don't have the exact same human nature that requires recreation and a break from their duties.
"We do not say that woman's nature is the same as man's, as she is woman. For undoubtedly it stands to reason that some difference should exist between each of them, in virtue of which one is male and the other female. Pregnancy and parturition, accordingly, we say belong to woman, as she is woman, and not as she is a human being. But if there were no difference between man and woman, both would do and suffer the same things. As then there is sameness, as far as respects the soul, she will attain to the same virtue; but as there is difference as respects the peculiar construction of the body, she is destined for child-bearing and housekeeping. "For I would have you know," says the apostle, "that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man: for the man is not of the woman, but the woman of the man. For neither is the woman without the man, nor the man without the woman, in the Lord." For as we say that the man ought to be continent, and superior to pleasures." -- Saint Clement of Alexandria, AD 195
Motherhood changes a lot of things including the fact that a mother doesn't get leisure time on a daily basis, which the other three vocations can (and do by order of their rules. Hmm leisure time as a rule? Some food for thought on its good and necessity). However, to take it away completely for months (or years?) on end based on nothing whatsoever but one's personal preference and assumptions about others as lesser mothers is completely misguided.
It seems to me that, once the baby is a few months old, the woman's husband will find a way to divert her and give her a break for some recreation, perhaps by inviting her family over or, if that is not possible, being creative (which is something most men are). A lot of worldly women do not like men to be creative and scoff at their recommended activities, but one who trusts her husband, it seems to me, will try it and like it. Playing cards would be a perfect example. Few people seem to play cards today, despite the fact that it is incredibly engaging and entertaining while also being honest (as long as one does not gamble while playing cards), unless they are old or on vacation. It is free (after buying the deck), quiet, traditional, and still just as entertaining as ever. But I have the impression that many young mothers would not like to play cards if their husband recommended it because it does not seem exciting to them (according to their carnal reasoning). Many women would prefer to dress provocatively with a group of friends and gossip about their husbands and be looked at by other men.
If a man knows an instrument and is friends with a married Catholic man who knows an instrument, perhaps he and his wife could be invited over, even with their baby, or whatever, for dinner. Really, there are so many honest and simple ways to pass one's time for recreation that it is amazing so few people ever avail themselves of them. I suppose they do take work, but even when people have the skill or the means or the time, they look at these things as old-fashioned and kind of funny, apparently because they are too innocent. I can understand why people are constantly seeking that carnal edginess of being desirable, fashionable, in control, and slightly dangerous. But, though I can understand it, that does not mean that any of the reasons are good ones. It is just vanity. People seem addicted to the image of themselves that has been developed in them by movies, advertisements, and popular music. None of it is Christian.
Human nature dictates that an occasional outing is supportive of motherhood rather than against it.
Wallflower, sometimes I agree with what you write, but it seems to me that you are playing word games here. The principle is that women should not leave their homes without their husband's permission and, if they are going out with their female friends to "get drinks," their husband should say no, just as the women themselves should not desire to ask. CathMomof7 nailed it. Now, I could find a million exceptions for the principle and, without saying so, make it seem like the principle is not really very helpful, since it needs to be and can be applied so infrequently. But what is the point of that ?
Especially since she usually has no time for herself on a daily basis and she does revolve around a higher level of self-sacrifice. That makes it even more important to make sure she has a moment to regroup. It's simply about acknowledging the basics of humanity. Nothing more and nothing less.
I think that there is certainly some common sense in what you are saying here, but there are plenty of ways for a woman to "regroup" that do not require her to go to some "girls' night out" event to play the role of independent female, wearing makeup and having drinks in public without the presence of her husband or male relatives. Common sense also dictates against that. So where is the honest means of recreation ? It will almost certainly involve staying at home, visiting with other married women in a non-scandalous way (such as publicly appearing as a single woman at the club/bar/public house), or visiting one's relatives.
-
Many women would prefer to dress provocatively with a group of friends and gossip about their husbands and be looked at by other men.
I think this is at the heart of a the new mother's desire to go out for drinks, to re-establish her "attractiveness". As if the image of Mother and Child is not the inspiration for the prettiest art in the world.
If these poor women only knew how much better it would be for them to get together for Holy Hour of thanks to God for a healthy baby, and maybe grab a bite and a coffee...
The party after a birth should be the Baptism. There is no love to be found in drinking establishments.
-
Couldn't agree with you more, Elizabeth.
I was going to suggest that the new mother invite a few friends over some afternoon or evening & even have a few drinks, but I'd already stated my piece. This world is in a sad shape when you have to keep reiterating the obvious.
-
Pere Joseph I realize men and women are different but I am talking about human nature, not differences between men and women. Even though we are different there are things we share. We both need to eat and sleep for example. Recreation is in that category as well. We don't have the boys go to recess while girls study 8 straight hours because they don't need recess, you know what I mean? Male or female, it's something we share.
Many mothers recreate with their children. Taking them out for walks, to the park, simply playing outside, we get some "recess" that way. And except for illness, fatigue or stress we usually enjoy playing with the children. But for a true recreation, as in a temporary release from duty, she goes out without them once in a while.
Also, I broadened the original post and have been speaking beyond going to the bar for quite some time. I used examples such as going grocery shopping, going to a hair appointment or "whatever else", because to me it's obvious that in a discusssion with Catholics we aren't going to be advocating sinful recreation. Plus I've already said what I think of that. What I have in mind with "recreation" is a hike with husband or friends, a picnic, a shopping day, a date night, ... the possibilities for good fun and wholesome hobbies are endless. I'm saying that a mother getting leisure time without her child(ren) in and of itself is not necessarily an evil.
It seems that's getting lost though because people are wanting to stay focused on the bar.
It's funny you bring up cards. My sister is visiting and we've been doing that for a month. :wink:
-
What's ridiculous is this notion that women don't have the exact same human nature that requires recreation and a break from their duties. Motherhood changes a lot of things including the fact that a mother doesn't get leisure time on a daily basis, which the other three vocations can (and do by order of their rules. Hmm leisure time as a rule? Some food for thought on its good and necessity). However, to take it away completely for months (or years?) on end based on nothing whatsoever but one's personal preference and assumptions about others as lesser mothers is completely misguided.
I'm terribly sorry, wallflower, but this is not a Catholic mindset. The woman's career is at home, PERIOD. You are suggesting that the woman should put her social needs ahead of the needs of her children, and that is not a Catholic way of thinking.
And as Tele said, it is totally false to say a mother can go drink with friends while her children are left at home. You really need to study Church teaching on this issue, wallflower. You are spreading dangerous falsehood with statements such as these.
-
And as Tele said, it is totally false to say a mother can go drink with friends while her children are left at home.
SS, we need to be careful and realize that there are those who wish to make our position look absurd when really what we are criticizing is not the principle of leisure or time with friends.
Rather there are many elements here that come together that make for a type of feminine conduct that is not at all admirable. That's not to say it's scandalous, but taking such conduct as a matter of course, as "normal" - could lead to scandals in time.
Do you Catholic parents want your daughters hanging out in bars? Do you want them spending time with profane "friends" who likely have tendencies towards excessive drinking? Do you want them to go out often socially in public without their husbands? This isn't ladies tea we're talking about. Do you want them to be the kind of woman who leaves her two week old in the care of another, pressures another to take the babe off her hands so she go out drinking with female friends?
The actions I've seen among many Trads tells me that many are OK with raising their daughters to behave like that.
Look at how strenuously wallflower is defending this mother. Look how she changes the subject, starts using the slippery slope argument, that if we say two weeks is inappropriate we would say the same thing over the course of years.
Wallflower is very very consistent in trying to appear traditional while constantly giving a pass to behavior that is neither lady-like, motherly, or admirable.
This suggests something about the way young trad women generally act, and it isn't positive.
-
I don't think anyone is saying moms don't deserve breaks. I don't think anyone would compare leaving an older infant with a trusted sitter to go get her hair done with leaving a 2 week old to go out at night without her husband.
I wish I knew more moms who enjoy a "girl's night in" like a scrapbooking party or just eating some really high calorie dessert and chatting. :-) Cards are great too!
-
Ask yourself honestly, should a man want to be the husband of a woman who acts like that?
Who foists off her newborn on someone else so she can go drinking with "friends" - without you?
Carrying on the habits formed during "single" life after marriage is probably hard to avoid. Which is why I don't want any woman who has such habits.
That alone is a major reason to avoid most college educated women.
-
Many women would prefer to dress provocatively with a group of friends and gossip about their husbands and be looked at by other men.
.
The trash talking of spouses is the worst. On the rare occasion I splurge and go out to lunch with coworkers, it is inevitable that someone starts "venting" about their husband. I would be so hurt if my spouse did that. Maybe I just notice it more because I'm single, but it just strikes me as disrespectful. They say that divorce is contagious among friends. Sadly, I can see why.
-
I really wonder about some people.
When my 5th child was 7 weeks old, I got a horrible bacterial infection that began with a mosquito bite. One Sunday afternoon I found myself double over in pain with a fever of 104 degrees. My husband had to take me to the emergency room.
I was nursing my son. I had to have IV antibiotics in the hospital. I was there overnight and kept my son WITH ME the ENTIRE TIME because I was nursing. I would not allow the Dr's or Nurses to take him. Period.
So, you will never, ever get me to say that women are justified in leaving their nursing babies behind to go out for drinks.
Do mothers need some time free of their children. Yes. It's called "Take your 7 children to your girlfriend who has 12 children's day-out."
You'd be surprised how relaxing having a glass of wine with cheese and crackers can be when 5 or 6 teenagers are occupying 10 or 12 children.
It's great fun and exciting. You might actually get a good recipe or two or some new fabric or pattern for a skirt or you get some new religious icon that they have 3 of and thought you might like to have.
Then when talks gets around to the men, as it usually does, its always about how hard they work or how they helped us in some way or how they taught the boys how to attached a wall to concrete or something.
I don't know, but I left the Novus Ordo a while ago, where all of my girl friends were wanting to go out for drinks and pedicures. I could never go because they don't like nursing mother's sitting at the bar.
-
I really wonder about some people.
When my 5th child was 7 weeks old, I got a horrible bacterial infection that began with a mosquito bite. One Sunday afternoon I found myself double over in pain with a fever of 104 degrees. My husband had to take me to the emergency room.
I was nursing my son. I had to have IV antibiotics in the hospital. I was there overnight and kept my son WITH ME the ENTIRE TIME because I was nursing. I would not allow the Dr's or Nurses to take him. Period.
So, you will never, ever get me to say that women are justified in leaving their nursing babies behind to go out for drinks.
Do mothers need some time free of their children. Yes. It's called "Take your 7 children to your girlfriend who has 12 children's day-out."
You'd be surprised how relaxing having a glass of wine with cheese and crackers can be when 5 or 6 teenagers are occupying 10 or 12 children.
It's great fun and exciting. You might actually get a good recipe or two or some new fabric or pattern for a skirt or you get some new religious icon that they have 3 of and thought you might like to have.
Then when talks gets around to the men, as it usually does, its always about how hard they work or how they helped us in some way or how they taught the boys how to attached a wall to concrete or something.
I don't know, but I left the Novus Ordo a while ago, where all of my girl friends were wanting to go out for drinks and pedicures. I could never go because they don't like nursing mother's sitting at the bar.
I'm pretty sure you have my dream life. :wink: I hope I am blessed with a big family someday.
-
I really wonder about some people.
When my 5th child was 7 weeks old, I got a horrible bacterial infection that began with a mosquito bite. One Sunday afternoon I found myself double over in pain with a fever of 104 degrees. My husband had to take me to the emergency room.
I was nursing my son. I had to have IV antibiotics in the hospital. I was there overnight and kept my son WITH ME the ENTIRE TIME because I was nursing. I would not allow the Dr's or Nurses to take him. Period.
I did the same with my gallbladder attacks. Nursed my 3 week old right there on the hospital bed all night in the ER. I don't think it would be possible with all illnesses and depending on what meds would have to be taken but for an infection and for gallbladder it's easily done yes.
Do mothers need some time free of their children. Yes. It's called "Take your 7 children to your girlfriend who has 12 children's day-out."
Honestly, that's all I have been trying to say, (except I don't believe it's limited to a playdate because that's not truly free of the children). I've asked many times for this to be clarified and no one has really answered upfront, preferring instead to keep talking about the bar. I'm glad to hear it.
-
I don't know if there is a one size fits all answer. It is really more that certain attitudes and patterns are troubling. What is a non medical reason that a mother needs to be away from a two week old?
The idea of needing lots of leisure time away from your family is a very new societal concept. It feeds into the modern idea that the vocation of mother/wife/ keeper of the home is not satisfying enough. So many mothers are worried about losing their pre-motherhood identity instead of embracing the new one.